For what ever reason, it does seems to be a common theme of late for reporters to question if a politician is religious enough for their faith. Enjoyed Seth Mandel’s reply to an article in the Times the other day suggestion Paul Ryan’s budget was unchristian.
“Selective ?Theocracy? from the Left”
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/08/15/selective-theocracy-left-paul-ryan-ayn-rand/
snippet:
"Liberals who object to conservatives offering faith-based justifications for public policy proposals often do so under the guise of saving the country from a ?theocracy.? It?s become increasingly clear, however, that many of these liberals object to a certain kind of religious governance, but in fact have their own version in mind.
The latest such example comes from Time?s Erika Christakis, who suggests that Paul Ryan?s budget?get ready to hear more of this?is ?un-Christian? because ?Jesus would advocate a tax rate somewhere between 50% (in the vein of ?if you have two coats, give one to the man who has none?) and 100%.? Does this mean Christakis supports using Christian teachings as the basis for legislation? No, of course not. Here?s Christakis from February on the contraception controversy (emphasis mine):
People who cry moral indignation about government-mandated contraception coverage appear unwilling to concede that the exercise of their deeply held convictions might infringe on the rights of millions of people who are burdened by unplanned pregnancy or want to reduce abortion or would like to see their tax dollars committed to a different purpose.
Well that would seem to absolve Ryan?s budget, no matter which way you slice it. Christakis thinks simply preferring your tax dollars be spent elsewhere is reason enough to ignore Judea-Christian precepts. Christakis is certainly entitled to think this way, but it makes her attack on Paul Ryan comically hypocritical.
I can?t delve too much into Christian theology, but I can say that we have this debate within the Jewish community as well. And the politically conservative among us are also treated to the same double standard Christakis employs against Ryan. Here, for example, is the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism?s David Saperstein warning elected officials not to make religious observance the foundation of their policy prescriptions, lest they deliver us unto a ?theocracy.? And here is the very same Saperstein arguing that ?Jewish tradition? and Midrash compelled us to pass the 2008 farm bill over President Bush?s objection.
But back to Ryan, because we?ll be hearing a lot more about his values, as the left interprets them, as this election rolls along. A very interesting example came about this week when Aaron Goldstein of the American Spectator asked why the media insists on analyzing the influence of Atlas Shrugged author and libertarian thinker Ayn Rand on Ryan, yet continue to display an utter lack of interest in President Obama?s intellectual influences, like Saul Alinsky or Rashid Khalidi…"
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Why would Jesus even need to vote?
[/quote]
To show the republicans his dad is on their side, of course![/quote]
Except that He’s not.
[/quote]
True, to be on a side you first have to exist, voting and political parties is kind of irrelevant.[/quote]
If only you had written “in order to vote you have to exist”.
That would have been fun.
[/quote]
Oh yes I see that now. I guess a fictional character could have a political side, they just can’t vote on it. Unless the democrats start issuing voting ids to them, because its currently impossible for to obtain a drivers license or other id when you don’t exist.
[quote]Menthol wrote:
For what ever reason, it does seems to be a common theme of late for reporters to question if a politician is religious enough for their faith. Enjoyed Seth Mandel’s reply to an article in the Times the other day suggestion Paul Ryan’s budget was unchristian.
“Selective ?Theocracy? from the Left”
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/08/15/selective-theocracy-left-paul-ryan-ayn-rand/
snippet:
"Liberals who object to conservatives offering faith-based justifications for public policy proposals often do so under the guise of saving the country from a ?theocracy.? It?s become increasingly clear, however, that many of these liberals object to a certain kind of religious governance, but in fact have their own version in mind.
The latest such example comes from Time?s Erika Christakis, who suggests that Paul Ryan?s budget?get ready to hear more of this?is ?un-Christian? because ?Jesus would advocate a tax rate somewhere between 50% (in the vein of ?if you have two coats, give one to the man who has none?) and 100%.? Does this mean Christakis supports using Christian teachings as the basis for legislation? No, of course not. Here?s Christakis from February on the contraception controversy (emphasis mine):
People who cry moral indignation about government-mandated contraception coverage appear unwilling to concede that the exercise of their deeply held convictions might infringe on the rights of millions of people who are burdened by unplanned pregnancy or want to reduce abortion or would like to see their tax dollars committed to a different purpose.
Well that would seem to absolve Ryan?s budget, no matter which way you slice it. Christakis thinks simply preferring your tax dollars be spent elsewhere is reason enough to ignore Judea-Christian precepts. Christakis is certainly entitled to think this way, but it makes her attack on Paul Ryan comically hypocritical.
I can?t delve too much into Christian theology, but I can say that we have this debate within the Jewish community as well. And the politically conservative among us are also treated to the same double standard Christakis employs against Ryan. Here, for example, is the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism?s David Saperstein warning elected officials not to make religious observance the foundation of their policy prescriptions, lest they deliver us unto a ?theocracy.? And here is the very same Saperstein arguing that ?Jewish tradition? and Midrash compelled us to pass the 2008 farm bill over President Bush?s objection.
But back to Ryan, because we?ll be hearing a lot more about his values, as the left interprets them, as this election rolls along. A very interesting example came about this week when Aaron Goldstein of the American Spectator asked why the media insists on analyzing the influence of Atlas Shrugged author and libertarian thinker Ayn Rand on Ryan, yet continue to display an utter lack of interest in President Obama?s intellectual influences, like Saul Alinsky or Rashid Khalidi…"[/quote]This has been addressed… let’s see… 1,2,3… 10 billion times.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Why would Jesus even need to vote?
[/quote]
To show the republicans his dad is on their side, of course![/quote]
Except that He’s not.
[/quote]
True, to be on a side you first have to exist, voting and political parties is kind of irrelevant.[/quote]
If only you had written “in order to vote you have to exist”.
That would have been fun.
[/quote]
Oh yes I see that now. I guess a fictional character could have a political side, they just can’t vote on it. Unless the democrats start issuing voting ids to them, because its currently impossible for to obtain a drivers license or other id when you don’t exist.[/quote]
I was more along the lines of, non existent people vote early and often.
Dead people even, its a miracle!
[quote]GCF wrote:
There are a lot of bonkers, looney toon, Christian conservatives on this board and I would love to hear how you reconcile your weird political beliefs with your weird religious beliefs in light of this article:[/quote]
Yes, go straight for the name calling. Wouldn’t expect anything less from a left-winger.
Quoted:
I write, of course, as an atheist: but an atheist who used to be a committed Christian[/quote]
About as good as someone who used to be a devout Catholic. I suppose this is supposed to give credence to here following heresy?
Supernatural humanity.
So, she says the gospels are inaccurate, and she’s going to use these same inaccurate accounts to prove something. Great.
Make?
What about them?
Where?
Attachments get in the way of a relationship with God. Not wealth.
Watch this twist.
Just because someone should be helped out does not mean they are not responsible for their own predicament.
He is, in the Eucharist.
The only people I know who despises the poor are left-wing eugenicists.
I’m not sure if you are talking about actual people at this time and point in your article…can I get documentation of people doing this?
The last time someone did say this was Aristotle, though with how the left-wing is giving out help, I wouldn’t want to deserve your compassion either.
No one says this.
He also had rich friends. Quite a few.
Yes. For more reasons than one.
I don’t believe Jesus preached about government intervention.
Yes, because there were so many guns in the Roman Empire circa 30 AD.
Lol…what?
I know Switzerland is more like it.
Well, he did tell Peter to sell his cloak and buy a sword…so…
Yes, the left-wing has looked down on the non-elite for decades, we know.
I know, what are we going to do about those pesky left-wingers. Shooting up pro-life offices, threatening business they do not agree with governmental authority, &c. I mean we respect their 1st Amendment, and they try and kill us.
Fixed that for you.
Yes, he also told them to sin no more, but hey why put things into context and refrain from reductionism.
Says the heretic. They are not a theologian or a bishop, they have no authority to even interpret the Bible or even the training to…so why should we listen to them?
Good, got tired of that drivel.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not again? ANOTHER alleged ex Christian (as if there could be such a thing)[/quote]
There is. Unless you’re referring to it like it is the mafia.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not again? ANOTHER alleged ex Christian (as if there could be such a thing)[/quote]There could be, they are in the Bible even.[/quote]Not doin it now Chris. Romans 2 is next. It has simply not been possible due to the infallible all governing providence of the Lord our God in my family’s life.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Not again? ANOTHER alleged ex Christian (as if there could be such a thing)[/quote]There is. Unless you’re referring to it like it is the mafia.[/quote]No real Christian ever wants out for good Chris. No need.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Not again? ANOTHER alleged ex Christian (as if there could be such a thing)[/quote]There could be, they are in the Bible even.[/quote]Not doin it now Chris. Romans 2 is next. It has simply not been possible due to the infallible all governing providence of the Lord our God in my family’s life.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Not again? ANOTHER alleged ex Christian (as if there could be such a thing)[/quote]There is. Unless you’re referring to it like it is the mafia.[/quote]No real Christian ever wants out for good Chris. No need.
[/quote]
Lol. I believe that’s called the Scotsman fallacy.
Mr. Jewbacca just stated that a Rabbi told him that Jesus was dead.
As a dead person, Jesus would vote Democrat.
– Mrs. Jewbacca (Hoping everyone took that as the jest in which it was meant.)
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Mr. Jewbacca just stated that a Rabbi told him that Jesus was dead.
As a dead person, Jesus would vote Democrat.
– Mrs. Jewbacca (Hoping everyone took that as the jest in which it was meant.)[/quote]
lol
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Mr. Jewbacca just stated that a Rabbi told him that Jesus was dead.
As a dead person, Jesus would vote Democrat.
– Mrs. Jewbacca (Hoping everyone took that as the jest in which it was meant.)[/quote]And twice in Chicago LOL!!
When I hear politicians talk about the importance of fiscal conservatism and it’s basic tenets regarding its very real potential for generating overall wealth in this country, and then I see many of the same politicians openly courting the evangelical Christian voting block in this country, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus in Luke 18:25: “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I see protesters at Occupy rallies, I assume that at least some small percentage of them claims to believe in some version of Jesus/God. When I see these protesters under this assumption, I am reminded of a quote from Jesus: “Let those who are wealthy reign, and let those who have power renounce.”
When I see protesters at places like Chik-fil-A lined up in support of opposition to gay marriage (specifically those with signs that read something along the lines of “God hates fags”, which I see at other protests as well), I think of the quote from Jesus: “Not everyone who saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Have we not cast out devils? And in thine name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
When I hear politicians advocate the eradication of government programs that help the poor and infirm in the name of financial wealth for the country as a whole, I am reminded of the quote from Jesus: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” This applies to all sorts of political scenarios that unfold every day on both sides of the aisle.
When I hear people complain about the use of their tax money for programs such as Medicare or unemployment insurance or whatever, and then I later hear these people profess to be followers of Jesus’ teachings, I am reminded of the following quotes from Jesus: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s; render unto God what is God’s”, and “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I hear social critics on both sides of the aisle who condemn the moral standards/philosophies that their opponents allegedly stand for, and then I hear many of the same people on both sides of the aisle profess to believe in Jesus’ teachings on the one hand and then argue about economic policy on the other in terms of generating wealth, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus: “If you wish to reach completeness, go, sell all of your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven.”
When I see politicians on both sides of the aisle argue back and forth, complete with participation from some of our Armed Forces, about who should get credit for killing Osama bin Laden, all in the name of a country that professes to be founded upon Judeo-Christian morality, I am reminded of a passage from the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not kill.”
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When I hear politicians talk about the importance of fiscal conservatism and it’s basic tenets regarding its very real potential for generating overall wealth in this country, and then I see many of the same politicians openly courting the evangelical Christian voting block in this country, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus in Luke 18:25: “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I see protesters at Occupy rallies, I assume that at least some small percentage of them claims to believe in some version of Jesus/God. When I see these protesters under this assumption, I am reminded of a quote from Jesus: “Let those who are wealthy reign, and let those who have power renounce.”
When I see protesters at places like Chik-fil-A lined up in support of opposition to gay marriage (specifically those with signs that read something along the lines of “God hates fags”, which I see at other protests as well), I think of the quote from Jesus: “Not everyone who saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Have we not cast out devils? And in thine name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
When I hear politicians advocate the eradication of government programs that help the poor and infirm in the name of financial wealth for the country as a whole, I am reminded of the quote from Jesus: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” This applies to all sorts of political scenarios that unfold every day on both sides of the aisle.
When I hear people complain about the use of their tax money for programs such as Medicare or unemployment insurance or whatever, and then I later hear these people profess to be followers of Jesus’ teachings, I am reminded of the following quotes from Jesus: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s; render unto God what is God’s”, and “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I hear social critics on both sides of the aisle who condemn the moral standards/philosophies that their opponents allegedly stand for, and then I hear many of the same people on both sides of the aisle profess to believe in Jesus’ teachings on the one hand and then argue about economic policy on the other in terms of generating wealth, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus: “If you wish to reach completeness, go, sell all of your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven.”
When I see politicians on both sides of the aisle argue back and forth, complete with participation from some of our Armed Forces, about who should get credit for killing Osama bin Laden, all in the name of a country that professes to be founded upon Judeo-Christian morality, I am reminded of a passage from the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not kill.”[/quote]
Didn’t realize they could vote out Ceaser.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When I hear politicians talk about the importance of fiscal conservatism and it’s basic tenets regarding its very real potential for generating overall wealth in this country, and then I see many of the same politicians openly courting the evangelical Christian voting block in this country, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus in Luke 18:25: “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I see protesters at Occupy rallies, I assume that at least some small percentage of them claims to believe in some version of Jesus/God. When I see these protesters under this assumption, I am reminded of a quote from Jesus: “Let those who are wealthy reign, and let those who have power renounce.”
When I see protesters at places like Chik-fil-A lined up in support of opposition to gay marriage (specifically those with signs that read something along the lines of “God hates fags”, which I see at other protests as well), I think of the quote from Jesus: “Not everyone who saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Have we not cast out devils? And in thine name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
When I hear politicians advocate the eradication of government programs that help the poor and infirm in the name of financial wealth for the country as a whole, I am reminded of the quote from Jesus: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” This applies to all sorts of political scenarios that unfold every day on both sides of the aisle.
When I hear people complain about the use of their tax money for programs such as Medicare or unemployment insurance or whatever, and then I later hear these people profess to be followers of Jesus’ teachings, I am reminded of the following quotes from Jesus: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s; render unto God what is God’s”, and “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I hear social critics on both sides of the aisle who condemn the moral standards/philosophies that their opponents allegedly stand for, and then I hear many of the same people on both sides of the aisle profess to believe in Jesus’ teachings on the one hand and then argue about economic policy on the other in terms of generating wealth, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus: “If you wish to reach completeness, go, sell all of your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven.”
When I see politicians on both sides of the aisle argue back and forth, complete with participation from some of our Armed Forces, about who should get credit for killing Osama bin Laden, all in the name of a country that professes to be founded upon Judeo-Christian morality, I am reminded of a passage from the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not kill.”[/quote]When I see unbelievers who know less about the bible and what it actually says. Who know less about the JESUS of the bible and what HE actually said (because of who he actually was) than they likely do about the differences between CISC and RISC microprocessor architectures, regurgitating looong posts of anti-biblical nonsense for the third time now in one thread? Ehhhh forget it. It don’t make no nevermind anyhow.
By the way, why is anyone lecturing Christian conservatives about charity? Sure we could always do more, but we are aware who tends to be more charitable in both time and money, right? Oh, right, we were pretending that entitlements heading for bankruptcy (imagine the poverty when that happens) are avenues of charitable giving.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
When I hear politicians talk about the importance of fiscal conservatism and it’s basic tenets regarding its very real potential for generating overall wealth in this country, and then I see many of the same politicians openly courting the evangelical Christian voting block in this country, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus in Luke 18:25: “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I see protesters at Occupy rallies, I assume that at least some small percentage of them claims to believe in some version of Jesus/God. When I see these protesters under this assumption, I am reminded of a quote from Jesus: “Let those who are wealthy reign, and let those who have power renounce.”
When I see protesters at places like Chik-fil-A lined up in support of opposition to gay marriage (specifically those with signs that read something along the lines of “God hates fags”, which I see at other protests as well), I think of the quote from Jesus: “Not everyone who saith unto me ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? Have we not cast out devils? And in thine name done many wonderful works?’ And then will I profess to them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
When I hear politicians advocate the eradication of government programs that help the poor and infirm in the name of financial wealth for the country as a whole, I am reminded of the quote from Jesus: “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” This applies to all sorts of political scenarios that unfold every day on both sides of the aisle.
When I hear people complain about the use of their tax money for programs such as Medicare or unemployment insurance or whatever, and then I later hear these people profess to be followers of Jesus’ teachings, I am reminded of the following quotes from Jesus: “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s; render unto God what is God’s”, and “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
When I hear social critics on both sides of the aisle who condemn the moral standards/philosophies that their opponents allegedly stand for, and then I hear many of the same people on both sides of the aisle profess to believe in Jesus’ teachings on the one hand and then argue about economic policy on the other in terms of generating wealth, I am reminded of the following quote from Jesus: “If you wish to reach completeness, go, sell all of your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in Heaven.”
When I see politicians on both sides of the aisle argue back and forth, complete with participation from some of our Armed Forces, about who should get credit for killing Osama bin Laden, all in the name of a country that professes to be founded upon Judeo-Christian morality, I am reminded of a passage from the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt not kill.”[/quote]When I see unbelievers who know less about the bible and what it actually says. Who know less about the JESUS of the bible and what HE actually said (because of who he actually was) than they likely do about the differences between CISC and RISC microprocessor architectures, regurgitating looong posts of anti-biblical nonsense for the third time now in one thread? Ehhhh forget it. It don’t make no nevermind anyhow.
[/quote]
So, in other words, you have nothing meaningful to contribute in a way that will advance and not degenerate the conversation.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
By the way, why is anyone lecturing Christian conservatives about charity? Sure we could always do more, but we are aware who tends to be more charitable in both time and money, right? Oh, right, we were pretending that entitlements heading for bankruptcy (imagine the poverty when that happens) was charitable giving.[/quote]
Look, what I’m getting at is pretty simple. And before anyone accuses me of preaching from up high, I’m a pretty hardcore fiscal conservative for the most part, and I am also a “believer” in that I believe in God and the teachings of Jesus Christ as laid out in the Bible. I don’t claim to be free of hypocrisy, nor do I claim to be an expert on the meanings of Jesus’ sermons.
That being said, I don’t think it’s wholly inaccurate or outlandish to say that there is some real, tangible, inherent hypocrisy in those who support fiscal conservatism on the one hand and Jesus on the other. Whether or not “entitlements” are headed for bankruptcy and whether or not they are viewed as entitlements and not the very fortunate donation that they actually are is immaterial, according to my understanding of Jesus’ teachings. What IS material is whether or not those programs are helping the poor and in what ways they can be tailored to improve on this, NOT in which ways they can be tailored to prevent the bankrupting of the rest of the country. I think Jesus would argue that if it takes bankrupting the country to feed and clothe the poor, regardless of how grateful they are, then we should do it if we claim to believe in His word.
I won’t argue about conservatives and charity in a general sense though. I can’t remember who the guy was now, but several years ago I read a large study by a writer from the NY Times that basically showed that conservatives actually donate to charities at a higher rate, both overall and relative to their net worth, than liberals do. HOWEVER, Jesus also said that we should not donate to the Church, but rather to the poor. The same study showed that an overwhelming majority of conservatives donations are to their churches, and not to the poor. Liberals tend to donate to museums and theaters and that sort of thing at about the same rate.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:<<< So, in other words, you have nothing meaningful to contribute in a way that will advance and not degenerate the conversation.[/quote]If I had a nickle for every time this crap has come up and I’ve answered it? Please see page one of this very thread for a brief synopsis.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:<<< So, in other words, you have nothing meaningful to contribute in a way that will advance and not degenerate the conversation.[/quote]If I had a nickle for every time this crap has come up and I’ve answered it? Please see page one of this very thread for a brief synopsis.
[/quote]
No, I’m not going to spend countless amount of hours looking for some amalgamation of an argument that I’m not even trying to engage in. I’m simply pointing out some inherent hypocrisies, which I myself fully admit to being guilty of. I’m not condemning conservatism as a whole, nor am I condemning all conservatives who also profess to believe in Jesus’ teachings.
When it comes to Jesus and the Bible and all that, I may have been born yesterday, but it wasn’t last night. So, rather than try to evade the issues that I have apparently raised with you by placing the onus on me to search through the entirety of this site, why don’t you simply address in a direct manner whatever it is that you take issue with. If you’ve done so as many times as you claim to have then you should be good at it by now and brevity should be of second nature to you.