Arrested For Not Showing License

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

You have the right not to show a receipt. The store also has a right to be a big pain in your ass and let the cops sort it out.

No he hadnt and that is exactly what the attorney general said through his spokes person. So, the store person had no probable cause, therefore no right to detain and the cop wasnt even allowed to ask for his ID.

That should be settled now.

Therefore and I repeat myself, the storeowner can now look forward to charges concerning “false imprisonment”, defamation, and possibly a civil suit worth around 30000 to 100000 on top of it.

So the storeperson acted illegal AND stupid.

[/quote]

The AG is not charging the guy in the link you posted.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

You have the right not to show a receipt. The store also has a right to be a big pain in your ass and let the cops sort it out.

No he hadnt and that is exactly what the attorney general said through his spokes person. So, the store person had no probable cause, therefore no right to detain and the cop wasnt even allowed to ask for his ID.

That should be settled now.

Therefore and I repeat myself, the storeowner can now look forward to charges concerning “false imprisonment”, defamation, and possibly a civil suit worth around 30000 to 100000 on top of it.

So the storeperson acted illegal AND stupid.

The AG is not charging the guy in the link you posted.[/quote]

If that stops him from charging them himself so be it. I do not know.

That still leaves a civil lawsuit and those damages are significant.

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

You have the right not to show a receipt. The store also has a right to be a big pain in your ass and let the cops sort it out.

No he hadnt and that is exactly what the attorney general said through his spokes person. So, the store person had no probable cause, therefore no right to detain and the cop wasnt even allowed to ask for his ID.

That should be settled now.

Therefore and I repeat myself, the storeowner can now look forward to charges concerning “false imprisonment”, defamation, and possibly a civil suit worth around 30000 to 100000 on top of it.

So the storeperson acted illegal AND stupid.

The AG is not charging the guy in the link you posted.

If that stops him from charging them himself so be it. I do not know.

That still leaves a civil lawsuit and those damages are significant.

[/quote]

He would likely lose if it went to court unless the jury was full of crazies. These suits are usually settled long vefore they go to court to save legal fees.

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You have the right not to show a receipt. The store also has a right to be a big pain in your ass and let the cops sort it out.

I have to wonder why this is so hard for some people to grasp. So far the ONLY reports we have are from the POV of the asshole. There has been no court cases substantiating anything.

Show me the law.

[/quote]

What law? My side is breaking no law - so how can I show you a law that is not there? I think the burden is on you to prove that the owner broke a law - not a recommended guideline.

All you have is a few blogs from the POV of the thieves, and a quote from an AG office "spokesperson.

Even your own blathering, time wasting links admits that this is an issue for the courts. I don’t think the court of public opinion really counts - especially since it seems to be populated by geek-boy bloggers.

You are the one saying it is against the law to detain, but you can’t find a single fucking court case to support it. You give best case guidelines, and instructions on what to do after being detained.

Long story short - until you or your cohorts can come up with some case law that explicitly says that detaining for refusal to show a receipt is illegal - I will take my chances in court.

And just for future reference - blogs are not case law. They are the creations of lonely, friendless keyboard warriors in dire need of a real life.

This thread still going strong I see…lol.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
This thread still going strong I see…lol.[/quote]

It’s a T-Nation forum statute that a thread has to go in at least six complete circles before it’s considered dead. The same points-counterpoints have to be made by at least three different participants each. Oh, and Nazis need to be mentioned at least once.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
This thread still going strong I see…lol.

It’s a T-Nation forum statute that a thread has to go in at least six complete circles before it’s considered dead. The same points-counterpoints have to be made by at least three different participants each. Oh, and Nazis need to be mentioned at least once.

[/quote]

or gestapo as was used in this case

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

They just want the authorities to be wrong. It doesn’t seem the store was wrong in this case.

If the store would have dragged him into a back room, handcuffed him and searched him they would have been wrong. Amazingly the store has this right when they see a guy stuff merchandise down his pants.

Amazingly they do not even have that right WHEN they see him stuff merchandise down his pants, because exactly the same rules apply.

[/quote]

You are right. They cannot search him and they can onlt restrain him if the situation warrants it.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
This thread still going strong I see…lol.

It’s a T-Nation forum statute that a thread has to go in at least six complete circles before it’s considered dead. The same points-counterpoints have to be made by at least three different participants each. Oh, and Nazis need to be mentioned at least once.

[/quote]

But to this thread’s credit - I don’t think anyone has blamed Bush for anything being discussed.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
pookie wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
This thread still going strong I see…lol.

It’s a T-Nation forum statute that a thread has to go in at least six complete circles before it’s considered dead. The same points-counterpoints have to be made by at least three different participants each. Oh, and Nazis need to be mentioned at least once.

or gestapo as was used in this case

[/quote]

Yes, but I didn’t mean the real Gestapo, so we still need a legitimate reference to Nazi Germany before this thread is complete.

…I bet Hitler would’ve demanded to see a receipt too.

There, now we have a Nazi-reference.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You have the right not to show a receipt. The store also has a right to be a big pain in your ass and let the cops sort it out.

I have to wonder why this is so hard for some people to grasp. So far the ONLY reports we have are from the POV of the asshole. There has been no court cases substantiating anything.

Show me the law.

What law? My side is breaking no law - so how can I show you a law that is not there? I think the burden is on you to prove that the owner broke a law - not a recommended guideline.

All you have is a few blogs from the POV of the thieves, and a quote from an AG office "spokesperson.

Even your own blathering, time wasting links admits that this is an issue for the courts. I don’t think the court of public opinion really counts - especially since it seems to be populated by geek-boy bloggers.

You are the one saying it is against the law to detain, but you can’t find a single fucking court case to support it. You give best case guidelines, and instructions on what to do after being detained.

Long story short - until you or your cohorts can come up with some case law that explicitly says that detaining for refusal to show a receipt is illegal - I will take my chances in court.

And just for future reference - blogs are not case law. They are the creations of lonely, friendless keyboard warriors in dire need of a real life.

[/quote]

Yeah, yuase that is how the world works.

By the way, the moon is made of cheese.

I say so.

You can´t prove otherwise.

Geological samples?

Blow me.

Commie propaganda, all of them.

Ohio case Ware v. Shin, on appeal by victim of “false imprisonment” (challenging a summary judgment declaring the store the winner):

Here, on the issue of lawful privilege, appellant agrees that when the alarm first sounded, the clerk had probable cause to detain her in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time as allowed by R.C. 2935.041(A).

Now, the victim is doing the appealing - why would she concede that merely tripping the electronic alarm constituted “probable cause” if Orion is right and the rest of us are wrong?

She has no reason to concede the point - she has every right to argue that the lower court got the law wrong by suggesting the initial threshold of “probable cause” was satisfied by a mere alarm in its summary judgment ruling. And yet, she concedes and agrees with the appellee (the store) that a store alarm going off creates “probable cause”.

How come? Does Orion know something that the appellant’s lawyers in Ohio don’t w/r/t what constitutes “probable cause” in a shoplifting situation?

Smart money says go with the Ohio attorneys and the Ohio appellate court. The legal determination at the trial level that a mere alarm constituted “probable cause” went undisturbed on appeal - no one bothered, as a matter of law, to make the claims we see from our Rage Against the Machiners. For good reason.

The appellant did contend that after the clerk had the initial “probable cause” to detain her and his search yielded nothing that “probable cause” disappeared - and the court agreed.

So, everyone clear? An appellate court in the state of Ohio had every chance to stomp on the idea that a mere alarm did not constitute “probable cause” - and didn’t. The appellant didn’t even bother to challenge the notion of alarm-is-probable-cause. The court only recognized that “probable cause” evaporated only after the clerk conducted a search and found nothing, per the appellant’s contention…

To recap…[w]e also find that reasonable minds could only conclude that the clerk had no lawful privilege to detain appellant after he searched appellant’s purse.(emphasis mine)

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/6/2006/2006-ohio-976.pdf

Now, if “probable cause” meant what Orion hoped it meant (citing random cases from the internet), the appellant’s lawyers would have put that argument square at the top of the list: defeat “probable cause” from the outset here, and the rest of the case is history: no initial probable cause the first time, and all detainment after that is against the law.

But they didn’t. For a reason.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

He would likely lose if it went to court unless the jury was full of crazies. These suits are usually settled long vefore they go to court to save legal fees.

[/quote]

As long as we know now that the guy was oh so right and the storekeeper oh so wrong from a legal point of view…

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Ohio case Ware v. Shin, on appeal by victim of “false imprisonment” (challenging a summary judgment declaring the store the winner):

Here, on the issue of lawful privilege, appellant agrees that when the alarm first sounded, the clerk had probable cause to detain her in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time as allowed by R.C. 2935.041(A).

Now, the victim is doing the appealing - why would she concede that merely tripping the electronic alarm constituted “probable cause” if Orion is right and the rest of us are wrong?

She has no reason to concede the point - she has every right to argue that the lower court got the law wrong by suggesting the initial threshold of “probable cause” was satisfied by a mere alarm in its summary judgment ruling. And yet, she concedes and agrees with the appellee (the store) that a store alarm going off creates “probable cause”.

How come? Does Orion know something that the appellant’s lawyers in Ohio don’t w/r/t what constitutes “probable cause” in a shoplifting situation?

Smart money says go with the Ohio attorneys and the Ohio appellate court. The legal determination at the trial level that a mere alarm constituted “probable cause” went undisturbed on appeal - no one bothered, as a matter of law, to make the claims we see from our Rage Against the Machiners. For good reason.

The appellant did contend that after the clerk had the initial “probable cause” to detain her and his search yielded nothing that “probable cause” disappeared - and the court agreed.

So, everyone clear? An appellate court in the state of Ohio had every chance to stomp on the idea that a mere alarm did not constitute “probable cause” - and didn’t. The appellant didn’t even bother to challenge the notion of alarm-is-probable-cause. The court only recognized that “probable cause” evaporated only after the clerk conducted a search and found nothing, per the appellant’s contention…

To recap…[w]e also find that reasonable minds could only conclude that the clerk had no lawful privilege to detain appellant after he searched appellant’s purse.(emphasis mine)

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/6/2006/2006-ohio-976.pdf

Now, if “probable cause” meant what Orion hoped it meant (citing random cases from the internet), the appellant’s lawyers would have put that argument square at the top of the list: defeat “probable cause” from the outset here, and the rest of the case is history: no initial probable cause the first time, and all detainment after that is against the law.

But they didn’t. For a reason.[/quote]

A store alarm instantaniously shows the likelyhood of stealing and the not paying part, i.e probable cause.

Anything else?

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

He would likely lose if it went to court unless the jury was full of crazies. These suits are usually settled long vefore they go to court to save legal fees.

As long as we know now that the guy was oh so right and the storekeeper oh so wrong from a legal point of view…

[/quote]

We don’t really know anything.

(EDIT: Deleted for being a completely unnecessary bitchy comment)

I only know what a man with bad decision making skills wrote on a blog.

I don’t know if he set off a sensor, I don’t know if his actions amounted to probably cause, I don’t know what he actually did, only what he typed in his slanted way.

he’s a money trolling lawsuit-whore, for all WE know, of course.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

He would likely lose if it went to court unless the jury was full of crazies. These suits are usually settled long vefore they go to court to save legal fees.

As long as we know now that the guy was oh so right and the storekeeper oh so wrong from a legal point of view…

We don’t really know anything.

Maybe you should use the first person voice because I really don’t want to be part of your “we.”

I only know what a man with bad decision making skills wrote on a blog.

I don’t know if he set off a sensor, I don’t know if his actions amounted to probably cause, I don’t know what he actually did, only what he typed in his slanted way.

he’s a money trolling lawsuit-whore, for all WE know, of course.

[/quote]

maybe, who cares.

I am arguing against the “guilty until proven innocent” mentality that the refusal to show a receipt is enough to constitute probable cause.

I have also tried in vain to put legal decisions and recommendations against gut feelings and proved several posters wrong in the process.

They still want to go along with their vigilante gut feeling which would cost them if push came to shove.

For the total lack of legal reasoning they can orally satisfy me for their dicks may be long enough to make a whooshing sound but their minds and reasoning skills are suspiciously silent.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
pookie wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
This thread still going strong I see…lol.

It’s a T-Nation forum statute that a thread has to go in at least six complete circles before it’s considered dead. The same points-counterpoints have to be made by at least three different participants each. Oh, and Nazis need to be mentioned at least once.

But to this thread’s credit - I don’t think anyone has blamed Bush for anything being discussed. [/quote]

Bush made it so because I say so.

He is worse than the Nazis because my Moms gut feelings say so.

Ha, try to argue with that!

Arguments are for pinko homos…

[quote]orion wrote:

A store alarm instantaniously shows the likelyhood of stealing and the not paying part, i.e probable cause.

Anything else?[/quote]

Poor Orion - he gets shown Ohio law and this is all he has?

An alarm shows that a tag is still on merchandise - maybe the clerk forgot to take it off. But we see it constitutes “probable cause” that justifies detainment. A patron refusing to show a receipt looks even more nefarious than does an alarm - a refusal to cooperate and an inference they have something they don’t want the clerk to find versus setting off an alarm that could easily be forgetting to remove the tag.

Sorry, Orion - and Ohio court isn’t seeing it your way. I know it stings.

Of course, the bigger point is that all you continued to assure us that was needed for “probable cause” - you know, the “you have to witness a crime taking place”, etc. - is not the standard in Ohio. This, despite all your bluster.

You blathered until you ran out of steam, and we see you had no idea what you were talking about.

“Probable cause” has a lower threshold in Ohio - and all your noise was just that: noise.

I will also do what the US should have done long ago in Iraq:

I declare victory and return to worthier endeavours.

[quote]orion wrote:
maybe, who cares.

I am arguing against the “guilty until proven innocent” mentality that the refusal to show a receipt is ennough to constitute probable cause.

I have also tried in vain to put legal decisions and recommendations and gut feelings and proved several posters wrong in the process.

They still want to go along with their vigilante gut feeling which would cost them if push came to shove.

For the total lack of legal reasoning they can orally satisfy me for their dicks may be long enough to make a whooshing sound but their minds and reasoning skills are suspiciouisly silent.

[/quote]

I am taking in what you are saying. Yes we are innocent until proven guilty but doesn’t that also apply to the store and the employees? They could have been acting as they are entitled under the Merchant Protection Statutes.

I don’t know anything except in the whole grand scheme of things this guy caused a debacle of epic size due to ego.

Ego on both sides probably, the store employee’s and the blogger’s.

If we get the side of the store or even a reputable news agency and they tell the story and if the employee acted outside the scope of what is allowed, than I hope they clear the man’s name.

I don’t know what the guy did, I don’t know if he set off sensors, I don’t know if he was acting in a hostile and threatening manner.

I hope we get to hear the whole story.