"Recent evidence has demonstrated that many biological actions historically attributed to testosterone are instead, at least in part, mediated by its aromatization product E2. The data are strongest for effects on bone, fat mass, insulin resistance and VMS. The relevance of these
data is that clinically efficacious treatment of male hypogonadism is best achieved with testosterone, which provides ‘three hormones in one’ – testosterone, DHT, E2. Conversely, this evidence raises caution regarding the use of selective androgen receptor modulators, nonaromatizable androgens and AIs for male hypogonadism, and emphasizes the need for better understanding of the tissue-specific effects of SERMs, which are also used
off label by some practitioners for this purpose.
Is this sufficient?
Yes, there is no denying killing ur e2 completely (as in breast cancer patients) is bad for your heart - and biological system overall.
Im looking for studies showing me that the ARIMIDEX, in on itself, is “toxic” - despite the e2 level.
In other words: Can you prove to me, it is toxic, in doses resulting in e2 levels which are still within a reasonable range.
Are there any studies what so ever on 0.25mg a week, for example?
I would assume its not.
What was the dosage of arimidex? Was it high enough to completely crush their e2 or was it just a small/moderate dose to slightly reduce e2?
I want studies with very small doses of arimidex, keeping e2 within a reasonable range.
I want studies showing me that the arimidex itself is toxic, on its own, not because it reduce e2 (too much).
30 different studies, using doses of 0.25mg to 1mg a week.
Lol im just telling you about the discussions going on underground, there are people legitimate annoyed by you, people who might be kinda fucking crazy, given the very nature of the steroid community.
My libido is off the charts on 600mg of NPP.
Right now im doing 10mg test E coupled with 10mg NPP ED, works like a charm.
It’s great to hear that your libido is off the charts. I really am truly happy for you, no BS. Just be careful with NPP long term as it can hit you out of the blue and your happy feelings will come crashing down.
Here is the argument:
I posted studies above showing it is toxic. You also know that E2 being low is bad.
So what you’re saying is that you only want to take a little bit of a toxic substance. Why would you want to take any amount of a toxic substance? What if the damage it does isn’t noticeable at first but gets worse and worse after years? We’re doing TRT for our health, are we not?
You know low E2 is bad, right? Crash it and you can see what happens (we’ve all been there, myself included!). Estradiol represents roughly 50% of the benefits of TRT including anabolism responsible for muscle growth (yes, you read that correctly). So what you’re saying is you want to lower those benefits just a little bit. Why would you want to lower the benefits at all?
This is where people drive me nuts. It’s like they are saying, “I just want to take a little bit of a toxic substance so that I can lower the benefits of estradiol just a little bit.”
Why not fix the protocol to begin with, stop thinking estradiol is the devil, and then you won’t be ingesting a toxic substance AND you will reap the benefits of estradiol.
You then refer to high levels of estradiol. There isn’t a single study out there that has found any level of estradiol to be harmful in the presence of sufficient androgens. There is no evidence at all. Yet everyone claims higher levels of E2 will cause harm. How did they reach that conclusion if we still can’t find any evidence of it after over 80 years of study? There is literally no evidence to support it which means they are being afraid of something that has no evidence to support it.
Do you see how this can drive someone nuts who has a logical mind? Why am I going to be afraid of a ton of stuff that there is no evidence to support? You might as well be afraid of the big flying poop monster hanging around outside your house, that nobody seems to be able to prove exists, forcing you to remain in your home in fear. It’s nuts.
Forgot to mention, you’re one of those tiny outliers I talk about on the channel who can’t take more than 5-10mg A DAY of testosterone. Crazy, but here you are guys! This is one right here! They do exist!
I can count on one hand how many like you that I know. That’s why your case was so complicated.
@equel I just tried calling you on messenger… call me back if you’d like
This is where people drive me nuts. It’s like they are saying, “I just want to take a little bit of a toxic substance so that I can lower the benefits of estradiol just a little bit.”
This argument makes no sense. Is too much testosterone toxic? Advil? Tylenol? Water? Something can be toxic in large doses but not small doses. Don’t want to continue this argument but had to point out the obvious flaw in this logic. Just about anything can be toxic in large doses. Doesn’t mean it is toxic in small doses.
This was meant to be a response to dbossa. Not sure how it got linked to this post.
I thought it wasn’t about the numbers? Only thing that matters is symptom resolution? Some feel great at TT of 800, others at 2000. Some need 100mg per week, others need 300mg. If someone said they needed 400mg per week and TT of 2500 you would be fine with that if they said it resolved their symptoms. Why is that the case with testosterone but not E2? You have people telling you they feel better (symptom resolution) on low dose AI and you immediately get on your bully pulpit and start shouting NO AI EVER. Is it possible some people feel better with a slightly lower E2? The human body is very complex. There is no one size fits all. There are NO absolutes.
There are probably 20 regular posters on this board. By my count there are at least two that say they feel better on low dose AI. That’s 10%. Most, including myself would agree in the vast majority of cases AI is not needed on TRT but for some it seems to work. Is it 10% probably not but it is also not 1 in 20,000. Maybe 1-5%? You have what, 6000 members in your FB group? Are you saying ZERO use AI? If even 6 use AI’s that would be 1 in 1000 not 1 in 20,000. Is it possible your group members are biased towards no AI? Why would someone taking an AI want to join a group where everyone shouts NO AI, NO AI all day long.
You mention you know and talk to a lot of doctors about this and they agree with the no AI stance. They agree it is NEVER needed? Or 1 in 20,000? There are plenty of doctors that prescribe it. Why are they wrong but the doctors you talk to not? Are those doctors knowingly violating their hippocratic oath?
When people disagree you immediately resort to name calling and bullying. Saying stuff like ‘you would never say that to my face’ or post a pic. That is 13 year old stuff not the way grown adults debate. I don’t get the obsession with pics on this forum. Many men take test for symptom resolution not to get jacked and post their pics on forums for other guys to comment on. This mentality is why there is still a stigma with TRT. There is a portion of people on TRT that just don’t ‘feel good’ if they are not jacked. Is that symptom resolution? Or is that a deeper psychological issue? I know you think this is a small portion but from what I have seen just on this forum I think it is larger than you think.
I thought we might be able to go one day without an AI / no AI debate but then you started this silly post. Anyway… I am not going to spend my entire day debating AI / no AI. I can’t believe people don’t have better things to do on a Saturday but spend their entire day on an online forum debating AI versus no AI.
I can’t believe I am going to say this but I hope Vonko comes back soon. His posts are at least comical and entertaining. Much better than the constant AI / no AI debates. I have a busy day planned. I’ll check in later and catch up on the 100+ posts on AI / no AI. I’ll yield the board to you so you can get on your soap box and scream NO AI all day.
I also know this:
Ive been up to doses of 750mg testosterone. No libido. Add AI, suddenly libido appears - albeit very random, as hormone levels goes crazy on such doses, BUT IT DOES APPEAR: So the reduction of estrogen, puts me - sometimes - in a spot, which is my “sweet spot” - but then, it gets too low, or goes back to being too high. That is how I know, that too high e2 - for me, and probably many others - is bad for libido.
I also do know, using NPP, which almost dont aromatize at all (about 20% of testosterone) yet does 99% of what testosterone does, to the brain, my libido is good.
So estrogen does indeed fuck something up with my libido aswell as erectile strenght.
No.
I want to know if the AI per se, is toxic - or is the toxicity part the fact that it reduces e2 too much.
In other words: Is it toxic BECAUSE of the (huge) reduction in e2, or is it toxic in it of itself?
Are there any studies, what so ever, using AI - where e2 is still kept within a reasonable normal range (as would be the case on TRT) - showing harm?
It is toxic in itself. It damages the endothelial. Not something you want to be injesting at any amount unless you are a woman with cancer and then you’re simply taking the lesser of two evils. Tanking E2 is a completely different issue altogether.
It’s like, you know rat poison is toxic and then people ask if they just take a little bit of it would it still be toxic. Why would you want to take any of it? Why take that chance?
The fact of the matter is you’re a outlier to the extreme. None of the standard rules will apply to you. If you found a mix of T and NPP that makes you feel good, more power to you. However, this not demonstrate whatsoever the neccessity of AI use from the other 99.99% of guys on TRT. You’re literally the first I’ve seen like this and then I think systemlord who can only take 5mg a day but I don’t believe he uses an AI. I know a handful of guys who can only take 5-10mg but they don’t use an AI either.
Fine, everything is toxic. Even air. If you want to take it to the extremes, let’s do that. Not sure how that will help anybody who’s deciding if they should take vitamin D or arsenic if they are technically all toxic at a certain dose. Yup, very helpful.
I’m fine with test but not E2. Correct. Why?
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Aromatase is a self regulating mechanism that creates estradiol based on the requirement.
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Estradiol is a paracrine hormone which makes serum levels irrelevant but you want to make decisions based on the serum level.
The guys who say they feel better on an AI, have them email me. I’ve gotten well over 1000 men off their AI with some simple tweaks and they thanked me for it. @equel is a very special case where he can only take 10mg a day. He is NOT the norm.
There are a handful of guys in the 6k group on an AI. Of the dozen or so physicians in that group, none of them have a single patient on an AI so we’re taking about tens of thousands of men at this point. They ALL used to use an AI and stopped because they know better now. Guys join because they want to be healthy and want to learn how to take the minimum amount of drugs possible to maintain health.
They agree it is virtually never needed unless the patient has an aromatase dysfunction where their E2 measures in the several hundreds pg/mL. Of all those docs they only have a single patient like that.
If you’d like to get your information from vonko, by all means.
Count me as one of those “well over 1000”. And I was on an AI for almost 7 years!
Thanks again, @dbossa!