Are You Actually Poor?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I walked into a train station in the dead of night in New Delhi once. Limbless stubs of human bodies were huddled around fires. When they saw me they started crawling and shimmying toward me, presumably to beg for money. It was one of the most jarring things I’ve ever seen in my life. THAT is poverty. There is no one in the United States without a cognitive or psychological disability who lives like that.[/quote]

Ah yes, strategically placed quadriplegics in a train station to waylay travelers - oldest trick in the book.

I hope you did not fall for it. [/quote]

What was the trick exactly? Hands inside their shirts?[/quote]

The trick is how they got there in the first place.[/quote]

You mean like the Slum Dog movie where these people are bringing their beggings back to a mafia type leader?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I walked into a train station in the dead of night in New Delhi once. Limbless stubs of human bodies were huddled around fires. When they saw me they started crawling and shimmying toward me, presumably to beg for money. It was one of the most jarring things I’ve ever seen in my life. THAT is poverty. There is no one in the United States without a cognitive or psychological disability who lives like that.[/quote]

Ah yes, strategically placed quadriplegics in a train station to waylay travelers - oldest trick in the book.

I hope you did not fall for it. [/quote]

What was the trick exactly? Hands inside their shirts?[/quote]

The trick is how they got there in the first place.[/quote]

You mean like the Slum Dog movie where these people are bringing their beggings back to a mafia type leader?[/quote]

Not to derail the thread any further but there are only two options here:

  1. they got there on their own (which to me is an impressive trick for quadriplegics);

or 2) they were put there by someone else.

I can see why a poor family would do this to help bring in more income. This is how quadriplegics can contribute to their own survival.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I walked into a train station in the dead of night in New Delhi once. Limbless stubs of human bodies were huddled around fires. When they saw me they started crawling and shimmying toward me, presumably to beg for money. It was one of the most jarring things I’ve ever seen in my life. THAT is poverty. There is no one in the United States without a cognitive or psychological disability who lives like that.[/quote]

Ah yes, strategically placed quadriplegics in a train station to waylay travelers - oldest trick in the book.

I hope you did not fall for it. [/quote]

What was the trick exactly? Hands inside their shirts?[/quote]

The trick is how they got there in the first place.[/quote]

You mean like the Slum Dog movie where these people are bringing their beggings back to a mafia type leader?[/quote]

Not to derail the thread any further but there are only two options here:

  1. they got there on their own (which to me is an impressive trick for quadriplegics);

or 2) they were put there by someone else.

I can see why a poor family would do this to help bring in more income. This is how quadriplegics can contribute to their own survival.[/quote]

I believe that they were living in the train station, which did not seem to operate on a day-to-day basis.

But in India you never know what exactly is going on. People do say that none of the money you ever give to a child or amputee ends up as food in their bellies. I don’t know if it’s true, but that’s the conventional wisdom told to anyone who is going there for a long time.

I wasn’t able to open the article, but my father was born about as poor as one can be - money wise. As he likes to say, there was a good deal of love in the family, but not much money. (His father had diabetes that seems to have pretty much disabled him from being able to work.) He was raised basically in a log cabin in the 1940s and 50s, as the house was hand built by his grandfather in rural Oregon. There was an outhouse out back as they didn’t have running water, or electricity till he reached middle school if I remember correctly.

Dad has done pretty well for himself, having risen through the corporate ranks and then later started his own business which did well. I think that mobility in the classes is what makes America special. It’s why foreigners want to come here. It’s an America dream, as my father has said he didn’t want to be poor like his parents. He worked hard, took risks and as a result was able to lift himself and family out of poverty.

Got a chuckle out of this article on the reoccurring speeches at the conventions of growing up poor. Seems many politicians making speeches at the conventions like to give the impression they are the next Abraham Lincoln, born in a log cabin.

“In Defense of the Poverty Narrative”

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/09/05/in-defense-of-the-poverty-narrative-convention-speeches/

snippet from Jonathan Tobin’s article:

"By the end of the first night of the Democratic National Convention, many journalists and others watching these festivities and last week?s Republican jamboree had had enough. From both left and right there came a bipartisan consensus of kibitzers crying out for a halt to the endless stream of narratives about impoverished or difficult upbringings overcome by hard work and all the other all-American virtues that lead to success. Many a commentator noted that if they had to listen to one more sob story about growing up poor they would scream. Others facetiously promised that after the binge of Horatio Alger tales that they had been subjected to, they would support any candidate, whether liberal or conservative, who would avow they were born to privilege and had squandered a fortune due to laziness and indifference.

.These understandable sentiments are the inevitable product of the repetitious nature of the speeches being aired at both conventions. Though Republicans and Democrats disagree on a great deal they all seem desperate to convince us they were born in the moral equivalent of a log cabin and that their emergence from their humble beginnings entitles them to our admiration as well as our votes. But as tiresome as this rhetorical feedback loop may be, we ought not to complain too much about it. The reason why politicians feel the need to say these things and why, despite our grousing about it, so many of us long to hear it, is rooted in our national identity. Social mobility is not, despite the efforts of some on the left to disparage the notion, a myth. It is at the core of what means to be American and though we may laugh about it, it is vital that we continue to celebrate it…"

[quote]Menthol wrote:
Social mobility is not, despite the efforts of some on the left to disparage the notion, a myth. It is at the core of what means to be American and though we may laugh about it, it is vital that we continue to celebrate it…"

[/quote]

I want to buy this guy a beer and shake his hand.

Well said.

I’m very fortunate to be where I’m at now

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I’m very fortunate to be where I’m at now[/quote]

‘Location: District of Columbia’

Public sector huh?

Here’s an article one of my professors wrote. Scroll to the bottom, “Hope in Hell on Earth: Mirco-Finance In Nicaragua.”

That’s poor.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Here’s an article one of my professors wrote. Scroll to the bottom, “Hope in Hell on Earth: Mirco-Finance In Nicaragua.”

That’s poor. [/quote]

I love this microfinance stuff.

You lend them a few hundred bucks, they build something that makes their and their customers lives better and in 99,8 or so cases you get your money back.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
I’m very fortunate to be where I’m at now[/quote]

‘Location: District of Columbia’

Public sector huh?[/quote]
I was born and raised in DC. I’m in GA right now for school.

Locally the homeless have been canvassing major street corners for handouts. It’s definitely an organized effort, which somewhat makes me question the legitimacy of the stories written on their cardboard signs.

What troubles me is how overweight most of these people are. I understand that many of them are newly homeless, but it’s indicative of what seems to be a larger problem, and that’s simply an issue of piss poor planning.

Many of these people are those that could have done better to avoid their current situation, but didn’t. I find it very hard to sympathize with them. I’ve lost my job twice, due to circumstances outside of my control, I lived next to a guy addicted to horse tranquilizers and convicted of multiple felonies (found out after he was arrested) just to make ends meet, and I worked damn hard to get to where I am right now, even with some major setbacks along the way. In the past year, I’ve even dealt with some seriously debilitating major depression.

So really, I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who’ve made bad choices to end up “poor”.

Now those that are genuinely poor due to mental health issues, I have a lot of sympathy for them.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Locally the homeless have been canvassing major street corners for handouts. It’s definitely an organized effort, which somewhat makes me question the legitimacy of the stories written on their cardboard signs.

What troubles me is how overweight most of these people are. I understand that many of them are newly homeless, but it’s indicative of what seems to be a larger problem, and that’s simply an issue of piss poor planning.

Many of these people are those that could have done better to avoid their current situation, but didn’t. I find it very hard to sympathize with them. I’ve lost my job twice, due to circumstances outside of my control, I lived next to a guy addicted to horse tranquilizers and convicted of multiple felonies (found out after he was arrested) just to make ends meet, and I worked damn hard to get to where I am right now, even with some major setbacks along the way. In the past year, I’ve even dealt with some seriously debilitating major depression.

So really, I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who’ve made bad choices to end up “poor”.

Now those that are genuinely poor due to mental health issues, I have a lot of sympathy for them.[/quote]

Sympathy for many of them is difficult, and in many cases almost unwarranted. I remember a professor of mine talking about a study where people were told about homelessness and joblessness in terms of data and stats…there are x number of homeless and jobless people in the country right now, etc. Participants reported a much stronger than average level of sympathy for the people in question. Then, they read case studies about people who were actually unemployed and homeless, and sympathy went way, way down in the individual cases. Which is natural and in many cases perfectly reasonable.

Sympathy for their children is necessary though.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Menthol wrote:
Social mobility is not, despite the efforts of some on the left to disparage the notion, a myth. It is at the core of what means to be American and though we may laugh about it, it is vital that we continue to celebrate it…"

[/quote]

I want to buy this guy a beer and shake his hand.

Well said. [/quote]
Agreed. The claim that there is an ever growing gap between the wealthiest and the “poorest” in the US is not a point of shame, but rather a point to celebrate. There should be no ceiling to the amount of wealth or the amount of income that one earns. We haven’t a caste system in the US. There is a better chance, if you follow someone’s earnings and wealth through their life,that they climb out of the bottom into the middle or above, than there is of someone being in the top say 20% and staying there.

I read somewhere(it was an article on cnn but I forget which one…sowwy) that if you make 35k and over in the US, than you are part of the 1% for the entire world. That’s pretty crazy when you think about it. d

[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:
I read somewhere(it was an article on cnn but I forget which one…sowwy) that if you make 35k and over in the US, than you are part of the 1% for the entire world. That’s pretty crazy when you think about it. d[/quote]

Yeah, I’ve read something similar somewhere too. I’m not sure 1%, but definitely smaller than 10%.

Many of our “poor” are richer than a lot of countries’ non-existent “middle class”.

There are a lot of things in this country that appear as necessities but really aren’t. Granted, some of these things are far more difficult without them. If you talk to some of the ‘poor’ from other countries that have immigrated to the US, they seem to have a much better handle on the things that are actually essential.

You don’t need a computer, tv, phone, car. But even taking it another level, you don’t even need a refrigerator, stovetop, couch, bed. We don’t really even need electricity.

We take a lot of things for granted here. I know many people who freak out at the idea of not having power. Personally, I’m more concerned about working plumbing and sewer.

I can’t imagine what parents these days would do without electricity though. They might actually have to watch over their kids…

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
We haven’t a caste system in the US. There is a better chance, if you follow someone’s earnings and wealth through their life,that they climb out of the bottom into the middle or above, than there is of someone being in the top say 20% and staying there. [/quote]

This certainly the idea behind the ‘American Dream.’ From the end of WW2 until the mid 70s - early 80s almost 70% of workers (that applied themselves) advanced at least one ‘caste’ forward economically. From the mid 80s until present the percentage is much lower (some studies indicate less that 30%, though I find that hard to beleive).
Debate about the reasons for this situation could fill a new thread.

thoughts?