as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion is an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in either a so-called “mercy killing” or a slow death.
an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in the death of an human being is the very definition of a murder.
therefore
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion should be avoided at all cost.
a proxy murder is still a murder.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion is an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in either a so-called “mercy killing” or a slow death.
an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in the death of an human being is the very definition of a murder.
therefore
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion should be avoided at all cost.
It’s not our risk to take, who are we to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?
a proxy murder is still a murder. [/quote]
While I agree that abortion should be a last ditch effort, I do not agree that we should have any say in it and that this is a conclusion to be made by the mother and her Doctor.
It’s not our risk to take. Why should we get to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Then you don’t oppose abortion (as far as the removal of the unborn child that is), but rather the killing of the fetus.
As it stands right now, however, we do not have a means to keep the child alive post-extraction, so a mercy killing is the lesser of two evils (as opposed to letting it die on its own).
So, if you are not opposed to fetal extraction and you agree that a mercy killing is better than leaving it to die on its own, then we are in agreement. [/quote]
No we don’t agree. There is no way to remove a health fetus and sustain it in such a way that it won’t be a retard. Of course, this is gestationally dependent, but not dr. is going to remove a health fetus from a health woman and then incubate the child until gestation is complete. I agree with neither extracting a fetus to let it die, nor ‘mercy’ killing it and then sucking it out with a Hoover. It is murder either way you slice it.
If you don’t want to get pregnant then don’t fuck. If you cannot handle the responsibility, then spank off to internet porn and leave the chica’s alone.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion is an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in either a so-called “mercy killing” or a slow death.
an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in the death of an human being is the very definition of a murder.
therefore
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion should be avoided at all cost.
It’s not our risk to take, who are we to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?
a proxy murder is still a murder. [/quote]
While I agree that abortion should be a last ditch effort, I do not agree that we should have any say in it and that this is a conclusion to be made by the mother and her Doctor.
It’s not our risk to take. Why should we get to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?[/quote]
Why should it be a last ditch effort? If you agree abortion is right, then you should be able to have them with impunity. Saying it should be a ‘last ditch effort’ implies there is something wrong with it.
even without re-criminalizing abortion, there is probably many things we could do, as a society, to ensure that abortion remains a “last ditch effort”.
If we really wanted to…
Allowing women to freely kill whoever they want in their own uterus is definitely not one of them.
[quote]kamui wrote:
even without re-criminalizing abortion, there is probably many things we could do, as a society, to ensure that abortion remains a “last ditch effort”.
If we really wanted to…
Allowing women to freely kill whoever they want in their own uterus is definitely not one of them.
[/quote]
Well, that’s your own preference. It’s my preference too, don’t get me wrong, but since it is her uterus I don’t think I should have any say.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion is an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in either a so-called “mercy killing” or a slow death.
an act that directly, inevitably and previsibly results in the death of an human being is the very definition of a murder.
therefore
as long as we do not have a mean to keep the child alive post-extraction, abortion should be avoided at all cost.
It’s not our risk to take, who are we to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?
a proxy murder is still a murder. [/quote]
While I agree that abortion should be a last ditch effort, I do not agree that we should have any say in it and that this is a conclusion to be made by the mother and her Doctor.
It’s not our risk to take. Why should we get to decide what does and does not get to stay in HER uterus?[/quote]
Why should it be a last ditch effort? If you agree abortion is right, then you should be able to have them with impunity. Saying it should be a ‘last ditch effort’ implies there is something wrong with it.
[/quote]
Abortion comes at a price to the mother as well. If I were a woman I would personally not get an abortion unless it was absolutely necessary. having said that, each woman has the right to decide which risks they want to take with their own body and if she REALLY wants to go out and get 10 abortions a year, fine. It’s her choice. I don’t like it and I can’t imagine why anyone would do that or be like that voluntarily, but it’s none of my business.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Then you don’t oppose abortion (as far as the removal of the unborn child that is), but rather the killing of the fetus.
As it stands right now, however, we do not have a means to keep the child alive post-extraction, so a mercy killing is the lesser of two evils (as opposed to letting it die on its own).
So, if you are not opposed to fetal extraction and you agree that a mercy killing is better than leaving it to die on its own, then we are in agreement. [/quote]
No we don’t agree. There is no way to remove a health fetus and sustain it in such a way that it won’t be a retard. Of course, this is gestationally dependent, but not dr. is going to remove a health fetus from a health woman and then incubate the child until gestation is complete. I agree with neither extracting a fetus to let it die, nor ‘mercy’ killing it and then sucking it out with a Hoover. It is murder either way you slice it.
If you don’t want to get pregnant then don’t fuck. If you cannot handle the responsibility, then spank off to internet porn and leave the chica’s alone.[/quote]
All right, this is a dead end then.
As of right now, abortion is proxy murder by the mother. I can’t deny this. However I do not think killing is always “wrong” (that is, logically inconsistent).
With an unwanted pregnancy you have two (technically three) possible outcomes:
You keep the baby, go through an unwanted pregnancy then raise the child in an un-loving and spiteful home/ give it up for adoption and further burden out orphanages and taxpayers
You go through an operation that painlessly terminates the fetus (assuming a less than 20 week gestation).
I would argue that it is more humane to spare the child an unloving life than to keep it just because other people have forced you to.
Also, from what I understand, the legal standing of abortion doesn’t greatly affect the actual amount of abortions that get done per year, it just affects how safely these abortions are carried out. Legal abortion is the lesser of two evils.
no
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
even without re-criminalizing abortion, there is probably many things we could do, as a society, to ensure that abortion remains a “last ditch effort”.
If we really wanted to…
Allowing women to freely kill whoever they want in their own uterus is definitely not one of them.
[/quote]
Well, that’s your own preference. It’s my preference too, don’t get me wrong, but since it is her uterus I don’t think I should have any say. [/quote]
Should you have any say if the child is one week old and lying in the crib? After all it’s her crib.
What if the child is one week old and lying on her abdomen? It’s her abdomen after all.
What if the child is one week old and lying in the front seat of her car? It’s her car after all.[/quote]
See, I knew you could make good arguments if you choose to. You’re smarter than you act, Push =p
By keeping the baby throughout the pregnancy and birthing it you are legally agreeing to care for it either for life or until you surrender custody over to someone else. Not doing so is a breach of your “legal contract” so to speak. Unless you’ve made a similar agreement in terms of remaining pregnant, you aren’t obligated to do so.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Then you don’t oppose abortion (as far as the removal of the unborn child that is), but rather the killing of the fetus.
As it stands right now, however, we do not have a means to keep the child alive post-extraction, so a mercy killing is the lesser of two evils (as opposed to letting it die on its own).
So, if you are not opposed to fetal extraction and you agree that a mercy killing is better than leaving it to die on its own, then we are in agreement. [/quote]
No we don’t agree. There is no way to remove a health fetus and sustain it in such a way that it won’t be a retard. Of course, this is gestationally dependent, but not dr. is going to remove a health fetus from a health woman and then incubate the child until gestation is complete. I agree with neither extracting a fetus to let it die, nor ‘mercy’ killing it and then sucking it out with a Hoover. It is murder either way you slice it.
If you don’t want to get pregnant then don’t fuck. If you cannot handle the responsibility, then spank off to internet porn and leave the chica’s alone.[/quote]
All right, this is a dead end then.
As of right now, abortion is proxy murder by the mother. I can’t deny this. However I do not think killing is always “wrong” (that is, logically inconsistent).
[/quote]
Yeah, but whatever happened to the Stalin analogy? You aint lettin’ that one go, are you?
[quote]
With an unwanted pregnancy you have two (technically three) possible outcomes:
You keep the baby, go through an unwanted pregnancy then raise the child in an un-loving and spiteful home/ give it up for adoption and further burden out orphanages and taxpayers
You go through an operation that painlessly terminates the fetus (assuming a less than 20 week gestation).
I would argue that it is more humane to spare the child an unloving life than to keep it just because other people have forced you to.
Also, from what I understand, the legal standing of abortion doesn’t greatly affect the actual amount of abortions that get done per year, it just affects how safely these abortions are carried out. Legal abortion is the lesser of two evils. [/quote]
All of these justifications could be then used if the child was 3 days or 3 weeks or 3 months or 3 years or 13 years old.[/quote]
See my previous response to you.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Tig, would you feel the same way if the hypothetical woman owned a baby seal? Should she be able to kill it with impunity even if you yourself would never do such a thing.[/quote]
Warranty void if seal is broken, so no.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
And I thought you totally incapable of spewing up the parasite and Stalin bullshit and actually believing it. You’re dumber than you act, Tigger.
[/quote]
Nice save. Wouldn’t want people to get the impression you’re mature or anything, now would you.
[quote]
By this line of thinking a preemie baby delivered by Cesarean section, let’s say due to a being in a traffic accident or such, could be legally killed by his/her mother OR legally obligate his/her mother to sustain its life.
Talk about choice.[/quote]
That doesn’t follow. Getting a Cesarean doesn’t mean you surrender custody of the child. If the pregnancy is advanced enough that that child can be born prematurely and survive, then a mercy killing is not necessary.
You’ve set up a situation where killing is not the lesser of two evils, this is not analogous.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
even without re-criminalizing abortion, there is probably many things we could do, as a society, to ensure that abortion remains a “last ditch effort”.
If we really wanted to…
Allowing women to freely kill whoever they want in their own uterus is definitely not one of them.
[/quote]
Well, that’s your own preference. It’s my preference too, don’t get me wrong, but since it is her uterus I don’t think I should have any say. [/quote]
Should you have any say if the child is one week old and lying in the crib? After all it’s her crib.
What if the child is one week old and lying on her abdomen? It’s her abdomen after all.
What if the child is one week old and lying in the front seat of her car? It’s her car after all.[/quote]
See, I knew you could make good arguments if you choose to. You’re smarter than you act, Push =p
By keeping the baby throughout the pregnancy and birthing it you are legally agreeing to care for it either for life or until you surrender custody over to someone else. Not doing so is a breach of your “legal contract” so to speak. Unless you’ve made a similar agreement in terms of remaining pregnant, you aren’t obligated to do so. [/quote]
Your terms of contractual obligation are arbitrary.
The actual decision and undertaking of the responsibility begins at the procreative act, hence, the contract with the child begins at its conception.
If you want the contract to begin with the magical, life-bestowing breaching of the vaginal threshold you are going to have to explain what mystical properties it is that the vagina contains that make the organism within the womb somehow different in kind with the organism that has luckily managed to run the vaginal gauntlet.