I wouldn’t judge the action of two idiots as representative.
However, I wouldn’t be suprised, if current trends in political correctness continue, that in 30-40 years, the US will be considered the agressor and Japan et al will demand an apology for the US inciting the attack at Pearl Harbor.
Call me cynical but there it is.
If you dont apologise for your use of nuclear weapons. Then you have no platform to criticise the use of nuclear weapons in similar situations by others.
On a side note, australia never developed nuclear weapons. We would borrow your bombs. We were more worried by invasian by south east asia. So we pioneered most of the foundations of biological warfare for genocidal purposes. no sides innocent.
oh, and If you didnt have nukes dropped on japan they would not have developed that complete apopalytpic attitude in the young that they have. Manga/anime would never of been in the form we know and love. grin its so wrong, but it had good effects too…
[quote]danmaftei wrote:
So why does that mean you shouldn’t apologize for Hiroshima? I don’t see a reason for being so taken aback at your friend being sympathetic. A wrong is a wrong, just because Japan has done more fucked up shit in their past than us attacking Hiroshima doesn’t absolve anyone’s responsibility to admit fault or cruelty, or to apologize.[/quote]
I?m sorry but I disagree. Yes we all should feel bad when these acts of guilt and shame for events that have been done to stop aggression. Do you remember Pearl Harbor? Before 9/11 this was the only event where a foreign aggression had done damage to American soil in such a massive scale. The fact still remains that actions made during war engagements should remain acceptable after peace has been restored.
Americans should not have to apologize for bombing Japan. When did Japan apologize formally for their ?kamikaze? airplanes during Pearl Harbor? Has Japan apologized for the raping of Nanjing or for maintaining until present day Koreans born in captivity in Japan as other citizens? Did you know that?
What the Japanese have done is to make a huge PR in the world. Selling their products at discounts but keeping the money tied locally thus improving the economy and standard of living at the expense of the USA. Has this been given to any other country? This did not happen to Germany.
Did you know that they want to re-instill the army? Yes and even though the Japanese Government haven’t amended the constitution go to Hokkaido and you will see the tanks and other equipment under the term “special unit” police force. How do I know? Because I was there, saw them with my own 2 eyes and took pictures if you want to see them.
Ohh BTW this in that same day they prevented 2 American battleships to port bc of the “alleged” rape of a 17 year old girl here. Insane when you think that in Tokyo 14year olds sell their bodies to 60year olds in Chibuya.
Why does America have to apologize for every single thing that they have made? Why everyone now wants to say I’m sorry. Sorry does not cure anything or helps with the fact that aggressiveness will be stopped at all costs.
There is still no one as aggressive and racist than the Japanese.
[quote]Hanzo wrote:
…
matter of fact, the use of the atomic bomb was not necessary in bringing an end to the war. believe it or not, the atom bomb was dropped simply as a means by Truman to scare Stalin.
…[/quote]
There is an element of truth to this but it is overhyped.
Without dropping the bomb we would have had enormous casualties when we invaded.
There is a school of though that invasion would not be necessary and Japan would surrender. There were people in Japan that wanted to depose Tojo and surrender but they likely would have failed. You cannot fight a world war waiting for your enemy to depose his leaders and surrender.
The Japanese that put out surrender feelers were not in a position to make the surrender happen.
The reality is that dropping the bomb had multiple benefits as it not only ended the war without having the US suffer enormous casualties, but it kept the Russians out of Japan and sent a message to Stalin.
To pretend it was only to send a message to Stalin is very popular among the revisionist historians.
like everyone else pretty much said, dropping the bomb saved lives…
think about this tho…we sit here and shoot the $hit about how dropping the bomb was right/wrong while truman actually had to make the decision
thats the greatest burdon any us president has ever undertaken…its so mind boggling to actually imagine…
i know i would never want that responsibility
in the end i think he did it because
he needed to end the war quick without many casualties
it helped show strength to the soviet union when it came time for diplomatic relations and treaties
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I agree that it is ridiculous to apologize for something our country did over 50 years ago when many of us weren’t born. Just as modern-day Germans are not to blame for the Holocaust. But it’s also ridiculous to whine about ‘atrocities’ of other countries like we are blameless. Throughout our history, we have committed plenty of our own. Rather, we should lament the baser side and depths of human nature as well as appreciate the height.[/quote]
Except that Korea never tried to invade Japan in its entire history of existence. And that Japan tried to invade Korea on countless occasions. I’d say Korea was always a victim in regards to its relationship with Japan throughout history.
More recently, the Japanese took over the Korean island “dok do” in order to acquire more sea space as their own (yes, this is a big deal when the two countries are both surrounded by an ocean). This was possible and was accepted by all other nations across the world due to the political power that Japan has over Korea. The sea is now known as the “Sea of Japan”.
I guess the fact that for 99% of the history of Japan and Korea, “dok do” was a Korean island doesnt matter to anyone. Why should anyone care for a tiny country like Korea right?
It breaks my heart looking back in Korean history. I could only hope for a better future for this country.
[quote]hedo wrote:
I wouldn’t judge the action of two idiots as representative.
However, I wouldn’t be suprised, if current trends in political correctness continue, that in 30-40 years, the US will be considered the agressor and Japan et al will demand an apology for the US inciting the attack at Pearl Harbor.
Call me cynical but there it is.
[/quote]
Cynical?
I think you are ahead of your time with that prediction.
Political correctness might just be the worst thing that has ever happened to civiliztion/ It allows bad behavior with out contradiction.
That is never a good thing.
My father was on Okinawa, waiting for the invasion of Kyushu. I’m probably alive because of Hiroshima. I think those Japanese guys needed one serious ass-beating. Wish I’d been there to administer same.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
Now for some real obscure history. Anyone know that Japan did in fact bomb America? No planes, but they did drop bombs on America.[/quote]
Yes, they used balloons.
A message to all of you with “eye for an eye” justifications:
Though you probably couldn’t read this, for lack of eyes… That is all.
No, they targeted the military and political structures. The rest is collateral damage. Collateral damage is not a war crime. For instance if a bunch of somalians are shooting at me from behind women and children I can lawfully shoot through the women and children to get to the bad guys. If I couldn’t then it would be impossible to win any firefight.
Following your definition it would be impossible for the good guys to wage war. But not so tough for the bad guys.
Like I said, go find the laws of land warfare online somewhere, before screaming war crime.
[quote]krayon wrote:
I’m pretty sure dropping an atomic bomb on a city has to violate “attacking civillian structures that have no military value” it’s a whole city, there has to be at least 1 building that has no military value.[/quote]
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
I allways think it’s funny when someone demands an applogy. That is the best time in the world to tell them to go fuck themselves.
[/quote]
I am using that next time some politically correct asshole demands I feel sorry/apologize for apartheid after I tell them where I am from.
They had apartheid in Ohio? Wow, talk about being out of the loop.
[quote]Ren wrote:
I am using that next time some politically correct asshole demands I feel sorry/apologize for apartheid after I tell them where I am from.
[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
…Throughout our history, we have committed plenty of our own (atrocities)…
I see what you’re trying to say in this post but the statement above is simply not true in relative terms. Compared to other civilizations and countries, both past and present, the USA has been THE most generous, kindest, consistent force for good that world history has ever seen.
The bottom line is our nation has NOT committed “plenty” of "atrocities’.[/quote]
My father, who was in Germany and Czechoslovakia (then got sent to Okinawa in July 1945) told me how the locals would flat out RUN from any soldiers except Americans. The locals knew the Russians especially would either rape and/or kill them. The Americans would give them candy and cigarettes.
Side story: One of my dad’s friends was visiting us long ago. His buddy told us how my dad gave his blanket to a mom with a little kid. He always was a tough Sarge on the outside, but softhearted inside.
[quote]Beatnik wrote:
The effects of an atomic bomb dont end with immediate death. Generations afterwards suffer desease, deformity, etc. Not to mention its effects are so large that civilian death completely outways military unit death. I think nukes are a seriously wrong weapon to use for those two reasons. and thats why america has allready apologised. You can say to hell with it, and usually america does just that… but hey… its allready been done, both the bombing and the apology.
I love your stupid rhetoric though. “hey, we offered them a chance to surrender!” Nukes are spreading in the world. and america isnt involved in all conflicts. Can i use nukes in the next african war because of genocide is bad? what about in the kosovo area? south america? Americans! so hypocritical “We can use our weapons like this, for these reasons - but you can’t”[/quote]
What the hell are you talking about?
I’m glad I pissed so many people off, so let me continue.
Don’t any of you also find it hypoctritical that you say “me as a citizen should not say sorry for what my country did” yet you still feel like those Japanese should say they’re sorry?
If you want the Japs to give you an apology, you should give them one too. I don’t want to hear any of this “we did them a favor” shit, we dropped nuclear weapons on relatively harmless places.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone should apologize. Those drunk Japanese shouldn’t have asked for an apology and you shouldn’t give a shit or ask them for one back. War is war, it sucks, shit happens, people do fucked up things, and that’s that. Forget about the past.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Compared to other civilizations and countries, both past and present, the USA has been THE most generous, kindest, consistent force for good that world history has ever seen.[/quote]
Yeah… Every empire says that (British, Romans before them, etc.) The word “civilization” itself is a whitewash. What’s so civil about power structures ogranized by violence? Lesser evil or greater evil - Still very evil.
BTW, the United States genocide of the native population was admired by Hitler and a model for the Nazis. Was that not in the textbooks or on television?
What weakness to need association with today’s perverted tribal structures, rather than the super-tribe of all humanity, or all being.
I’m disgusted by so much parroting of official propaganda, as is on this thread. Consider today’s “Strong Words”:
The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best - and therefore never scrutinize or question. – Stephen Jay Gould
[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
They had apartheid in Ohio? Wow, talk about being out of the loop.
Ren wrote:
I am using that next time some politically correct asshole demands I feel sorry/apologize for apartheid after I tell them where I am from.
[/quote]
I live here now, take a guess as to where I was born…
[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Forget about the past.[/quote]
Forgive, but never forget.
“He who forgets history is destined to repeat it.” - George Santayana
And there’s no big need for apologies, except when justice is denied. Justice itself serves retribution enough.
BTW, I hear Robert McNamara, one of the firebombers of Tokyo and more than 50 other Japanese cities, is still alive… Yet, strangely, not in prison. Fuck.
His victims weren’t that lucky.
Not surprising he’s free, I suppose, when previous posts on this thread indicated a bold ignorance to the fact that Tokyo was attacked as with an atomic weapon (flesh and rivers boiled) with 100,000 dead.
And to think, the T-Nation audience is probably more intelligent and more informed than the general population shudder
[quote]Kailash wrote:
danmaftei wrote:
Forget about the past.
Forgive, but never forget.
“He who forgets history is destined to repeat it.” - George Santayana
And there’s no big need for apologies, except when justice is denied. Justice itself serves retribution enough.
BTW, I hear Robert McNamara, one of the firebombers of Tokyo and more than 50 other Japanese cities, is still alive… Yet, strangely, not in prison. Fuck.
His victims weren’t that lucky.
Not surprising he’s free, I suppose, when previous posts on this thread indicated a bold ignorance to the fact that Tokyo was attacked as with an atomic weapon (flesh and rivers boiled) with 100,000 dead.
And to think, the T-Nation audience is probably more intelligent and more informed than the general population shudder[/quote]
You’re surprised he’s free? Are you kidding? He did what needed to be done when it had to. It was a world fucking war with a psychotically nationalistic country trying to take over an entire hemisphere- they got what they deserved. Such is the concept of ‘total war’; if you break the civilians’ will to fight, and destroy that which supplies the army, the country breaks. You can thank General Sherman for that, when he “Made Georgia howl”. And rightly so.
Again…cry me a fucking river.
They’ll think twice before trying to take over Asia again.