It’s got to be same brand, same ester, same dosage, same frequency or its just mush.
As soon as you change one variable in addition the study is COMPLETELY meaningless.
I’d argue you’d also need to daily bloods and draw graphs of the levels and compare them as if there is differences in absorption then measuring the same number of days after the injection isn’t necessarily a full comparison picture.
Comparing same phase graphs of Total T, Free T and E2 for this would be super interesting.
Agree the study was set up so poorly that it would be tough to get much of anything from it.
Exactly. I think perhaps SubQ is similar to using a longer ester when compared to the same ester IM. Even with the same dosing schedule, the IM may have a lot higher peak. Trough would likely be lower too. By doing daily blood work, they could get average levels and peak and trough.
Indeed. Would need a decent amount of time on protocal with that in mind as well. Subq acting like a longer ester will take a good while to be fully saturated.
Great discussion guys,
im now based in the UK and trt here is miles behind America.
Test E is very difficult and expensive to get and Test c from only one clinic as far as im aware
The one clinic prescribing and supplying Test C really supports the microdosing method
Im new to trt, im on HCG and sustanon and one of them isnt agreeing with me. Im starting to suspect high E2.
Previously when i took Test E at doses of up to 500-600 i never had any issues bar some water retention. On sustanon and HCG at a trt dose im getting bad anxiety and more emotional than normal. Not been able to get bloods done because of lockdown and the holiday season.
I feel like my levels are much less stable on sustanon once a week than test e once a week… maybe im imagining it, maybe its the HCG
Im not keen to drop the HCG completely as my balls will vanish and i won’t ejaculate anything.
I guess its going to take me a while to get my trt dialed in.
Definitely really appreciate all the experience you guys have on this forum.
Reject the tyranny of the “OR” and embrace the genius of the “AND”
You have more injection sites.
I shoot both ways. I’ve done IM Only, SubQ Only, gone back and forth, IM one day, SubQ the other. And I don’t notice any difference with how I feel. The only thing is IM in the shoulder stings a tiny bit, but the pain is from breaking the skin. Once broken, I don’t feel any pain as the needle glides into the muscle. SubQ in the glute doesn’t hurt at all.
Also depends on HOW much you are injecting. If I’m doing a full 1cc, then I don’t want to put it in my delt as it leaves a lump. So I limit the arm to .5. Lastly, as someone else mentioned about lumps, if I inject SubQ into my abs area, I’m left with a lump.
I’m in sustanon too. Im doing e3d- you really need to dose it more due to the prop ester.
If you play around with steroid plotter (its a ball ache putting the 4 esters in for sustanon), you can see why you fluctuate so much. You can get as stable on once per week using Cyp as you can sustanon e3d.
I find e3d works ok- im considering going eod to stableise it even more.
Once per week sustanon would be my first thing to change-
I personally if I had the money would be using a single ester but the prices here dictate I have to use Sus.
Are you also in the UK?
You’re not imagining it, sustanon is the absolute dumbest drug that’s ever been made. For any kind of stability it needs to be injected far more frequently than any doctor is willing to admit.
Agreed. I’d be interested to see the change in absorption rates between the two
Yes matey. Sheffield
Unfortunately someone somewhere high up in the UK has a stranglehold on this and is probably living a fat lifestyle of the profits on this!
Its cheap as chips for us to buy- if someone could get in there and supply enanthate or Cyp to the masses it would help a lot of people in the UK!
Sustanon is 1/10 the price of enanthate (and.you cant get enanthate easily as its always sold put further up the chain).
And Cyp isn’t even available from pharmacies- its clinic only (a single clinic that imports it and puts most folk on daily subq plus hcg).
I’m in the UK and *not with the Men’s Health Clinic. They have a good idea with the daily/microdosing but I can definitely confirm others do provide options - my clinic offers Sustanon (cheapest), Test E (more expensive -comes in 10 x 1ml amps) and Test C (most expensive as imported, comes in a 10ml multidose vial).
I agree with Iron Yuppie above - I didn’t even bother with Sustanon as when I did my preliminary research, it was so clear to me I’d have more control using Test E or C (and having used both, pharma and UGL in both cases, I couldn’t *feel any difference between the two and would be suspicious of anyone claiming they could).
Mind if I ask which clinic that is?
Presumably optimale or BMH?
How much do they charge for 10x1ml Test E?
OM (I think they are cheaper than BMH - I went with OM as they were just so much more responsive at the outset of initial queries etc… I had basically contacted them both at the same time with the same blood tests and one was more user-friendly than the other). The cost works out around £25 per 1ml (which is indeed much more expensive than UGL) but that includes the subscription/Dr support etc thats always on hand.
If you want a legit SQ study, look at Xyosted’s clinical trial packet here. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2018/209863s000lbl.pdf
Go to page 12 to see the blood serum charts.
I was skeptical on the SQ data at first because SQ made me not feel good, but I never gave it enough time really and still at 28 BMI.
If the FDA approved a 0.5mL injection into SQ tissue with Test E, then SQ injection of Test C or any other should be perfectly fine.
And this is the long A$$ version with more data. https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/2019/209863Orig1s000MedR.pdf
I started TRT last year. 100 mg cyp a week in a .5 ml IM. After 90 days trough total T was 450. I liked the results but at peak I was too edgy, and trough left me down for two days. Initially had more morning wood but it tapered off. I would inject into thigh, had a really sore leg a couple times.
To avoid peak issues, I switched to subQ, same dosage and schedule, just went into belly fat. Now at six months trough is 658. My GP was a bit concerned but I failed to tell him I was subQ and he was thinking my peak would be too high.
First week of subQ it didn’t seem to work but gradually got better and daily morning wood increased and is now ever present. I now feel like it is very steady, moderate peak and no real trough. Only issue for me is it stings a bit, don’t seem to get welts, I notice a bit of a hard spot sometimes but not really noticeable. IM was okay, but subQ is overall easier for me.
I’m going to get a peak test but I’m guessing based on how I feel I don’t peak as high since I feel steady all week. By the way anyone know best time to test peak on subQ?
My thoughts on this subject:
I started IM and years ago switched to SubQ after feeling this “super high” followed by within 1-2 days “back to being tired, but waiting to be able to have my next shot”.
It took about 15-20 days for my SubQ to kick in. I felt Pre-TRT for that 15-20 days and then it started to get better and then boom, much more stable. I have never went back and had 2-3 years of perfect results. I recently started playing with HCG so I won’t go into that here as I have my own thread on that going on.
In terms of the nodules and lumps. I went through this. It absolutely does and will/can happen in IM just as easily as it does in the fat. It took me a long time in the beginning to find the right brand and place to get my testosterone cypionate. I believe that lump to be an allergic reaction when you’re simply doing TRT level injections. I cannot speak to people taking an entire syringe full of testosterone in one injection. This would be the wrong subforum for that talk. I tried all the combinations of Cypionate and their suspensions. I tried from different compounding pharmacies etc. It wasn’t until I pushed my doctor to let me get a true prescription filled from CVS pharmacy using a name brand that 100% of all lumps forever went away immediately. I began to question it after a little while because it was more expensive. So we tried the compounding pharmacy again and boom, instant 10ML bottle to the trash it goes. I had golf balls in my ass, my thigh and my delt. Tried my stomach and got an enormous welt that burned and itched for 2 weeks. Never again.
For me, SubQ with a name brand Cypionate solved 100% of my issues. Not to mention that my blood work all balanced out as well switching. The slower absorption helped me and I am sticking with it.
He talks about starting out with fear and not doing IM. I am the opposite, I started there and now have a fear of ever doing it again. Definitely not a one thing cures all process here. You’re going to have to do both and then decide for yourself. Give each way many months to stabalize and truly see the benefit. If you start IM, be ready for a “drop off” immediately. 10 days in you might be thinking fuck this! I am going back. You must wait longer than that for SubQ to finally give you full benefit.
Good luck on figuring out which one works best for you. Give them both a chance and the choice will be an easy one in the end.
EXACTLY! Everything you said except…
The only thing in my case is that insurance pays for it, so when I switched from the compounding place to Walgreens, it ended up $10 - $18 cheaper. GoodRx had it $10 Cheaper and my insurance had it $18 cheaper.