[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I know. [/quote]
You remind me a little of the Jehovah’s Witness guy. Take one seemingly ambiguous word that meant one thing when it was translated a long time ago and semantically means something different now…and build an entire distorted theology around it. Then dance and dance and dance on that word until you drive it into the ground and bury it.[/quote]
Push, Push, Push. Are you seriously saying that I based my whole post on one ambiguous word? You either didn’t read my post or the veil you have over eyes are so thick that you can’t see beyond your own typing.
Let me refresh our exchange. I told you that Jesus was created based on Colossians 1:15 and Revelation 3:14 which state that Jesus is the First Born of All Creation and the Beginning of Creation by God. You then reasoned that those words in both verse actually mean something different back when they were written than they do today. What you explained made little sense. You also stated that since all things were created through Jesus he must be God Almighty. I then showed you seven scriptures that state God used Jesus to create everything and that God created Jesus.
Push, take the veil from over your eyes as I restate those scriptures again.
What scriptures clearly show that God used Jesus to create everything. I’ll list two scriptures that show this.
1 Corinthians 8:5,6 states:
“For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him .”
Push, can you see the distinction:
One God the Father OUT OF WHOM ALL THINGS ARE.
One Lord Jesus THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS ARE.
Clearly separate and clearly two different roles.
Hebrews 1:1-3:
“1 God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and [/b]through whom he made the systems of things[/b]. 3 He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.”
Push I hope that veil is lifted. Can you see from those two scriptures that God used Jesus to create all things which harmonizes with Colossians 1:16 which state that “by means of”(NWT) or “by him”(NIV) all things were created? From the above passage can you see how Jesus can be the exact representation of God which harmonizes with Colossians 1:15 which states Jesus is the Image of God? Can you see how being the Image or the exact representation of God does not mean he is God because as Hebrews 1:3 states Jesus is at God’s right hand?
I then stated Proverbs 8:22-31 which shows Jesus in his pre-human existence being the first thing God created, how he was there when God prepared all creation and how Jesus became his Master Worker.
Apparently, you didn’t know that Jesus is identified as Wisdom in the Bible. I’ll quote those scriptures again that show Jesus is identifies as Wisdom.
1 Corinthians 1:24 and 30 states:
“however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the [/i]WISDOM[/i] of God.”
verse 30:
“But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us WISDOM from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom.”
So just like you can look to other scriptures such as Revelation 19:13 to clearly identify the Word mentioned in John chapter 1 as Jesus. You can look to other scriptures to identify Jesus as Wisdom.
Again, is that veil lifted Push? Let me again restate how all of the scriptures I used above harmonize with each other.
Proverbs 8:22 states that Jesus in his pre-human existence was “produced as the beginning of God’s ways”(NWT) or the “First-Born of his ways”(NAB). This harmonizes with Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 which states Jesus is the “Beginning of Creation by God” and the “First Born of All Creation.”
Proverbs 8:30 states that when God prepared all creation Jesus in his pre-human existence was at his side as a “Master Worker”(NWT) or “Craftsman”(NIV) which harmonizes with Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 8:5,6, John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:1-3 that all state that God created all things through Jesus .
Is that veil removed Push? Hopefully this time you can see that I did not base my whole post on “one ambiguous word and build an entire distorted theology.” I didn’t even base my whole post on two scriptures. I based it on seven scriptures that all harmonize with each other that clearly show Jesus is a created being, God used Jesus as a Master Worker to create everything and Jesus clearly is not God Almighty.
Again, come on Push if the above is so distorted with all of the knowledge about the Bible you portray to have you should be able to easily refute the above using the Bible. You had the nerve to tell another poster that he was out of his league and wondered how old he was based on his post. I won’t be that arrogant but I will say that I can refute all of your major doctrines such as the Hell Fire doctrine, who goes to heaven and what role they will play once in heaven, the true meaning of Adam’s sin and what that means for his descendants. I can do this from any Bible not based on one ambiguous word or even one scripture. I can do this using DOZENS OF SCRIPTURES. Come on Push. I’ll use the words you said to another poster. You sure know how to run and hide on a thread called “Religious Debate.”