[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]MBH wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
The first thing God created was Jesus in his heavenly position. Colossians 1:15 [/quote]
Ahhhhh…you wanna go Mormon on us, do ya? Sorry, bud, the “firstborn” translation as you are presenting it does not work. You are grossly misinterpreting the passage.
Look at it in the New Living Translation:
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can�?�¢??t see�?�¢??
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
You have to read the verses after vs. 15. Always read scripture in context.
"The question is regarding the interpretation of Colossians 1:15, a very important passage and one that is attacked continuously by cults and various �?�¢??isms.�?�¢?? Colossians 1:15. Now, in reference here to Christ, it says, �?�¢??Who is the image of the invisible God�?�¢??�?�¢??now, here comes the problem part to some people�?�¢??�?�¢??the firstborn of all creation.�?�¢??
Now, some would say that because Christ is called the �?�¢??firstborn of all creation,�?�¢?? that He was the first one created; therefore, He is a created being. Therefore, He is less than God, and the cults love to come to this verse to prove that.
Well, let�?�¢??s look at what it says. First of all, it calls Christ �?�¢??the image of the invisible God.�?�¢?? Notice it doesn�?�¢??t say �?�¢??Christ is in the image of the invisible God;�?�¢?? it says �?�¢??He is the image.�?�¢?? He is the image.
If you want a clear understanding of that, all you have to do is go to Colossians 2:9 and Paul makes it very clear what he means: �?�¢??for in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead in a body.�?�¢?? When it says He is the image of God, it means He is God in a body.
The word �?�¢??image�?�¢??�?�¢??�?�¢??eikon�?�¢??�?�¢??means �?�¢??a precise copy or a replica.�?�¢?? Today it would be the equal of a photograph. Jesus is the �?�¢??eikonion�?�¢?? (sp.); He is the perfect portrait of God. He is God made visible in a portrait. He is the manifestation of God.
In verse 19, it says, �?�¢??It pleased the Father that in him should all�?�¢??�?�¢??�?�¢??pleroma�?�¢??�?�¢??�?�¢??all fullness dwell.�?�¢?? What fullness? The fullness of the Godhead (2:9). He is the manifestation in a visible picture, in a physical body, of all that God is.
Now, it also says, �?�¢??He is the firstborn of all creation.�?�¢?? Now, this word �?�¢??prototokos�?�¢?? has been so maligned and so misunderstood. What does it mean that He is the firstborn? People, it has nothing to do with time! It has only to do with position.
It has nothing to do with origin! It has only to do with position. The �?�¢??prototokos�?�¢?? was the �?�¢??primary one.�?�¢?? The primary one. If you would rather translate it that way in your Bible, it is proper.
For example, look at verse 18: �?�¢??He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning�?�¢??�?�¢??now watch�?�¢??�?�¢??the firstborn from the dead.�?�¢?? Now, let me ask you a question. Was Jesus, in time, the first person raised from the dead? No. There were some in the Old Testament. There were some previously in the New Testament that Christ himself raised from the dead.
He is not the first �?�¢??in time�?�¢?? from the dead. He is, however, of all of those who have ever been resurrected, the primary one. Do you see? That�?�¢??s what it means. So when you go back to chapter 1:15, it is not saying the first one created was Christ; he is saying, of all of God�?�¢??s total creation, of all that there is in God�?�¢??s universe, the primary being is Christ.
He is the Son who receives the inheritance rights. His is the place of privilege. His is the honor. He is the Father�?�¢??s heir, the head of God�?�¢??s household.
Now, this also ties in with another scripture in Revelation 3:14: �?�¢??And unto the angel of the church�?�¢??the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,�?�¢??�?�¢??now watch�?�¢??�?�¢??the beginning of the creation of God.�?�¢??
Now here again, the word translated �?�¢??beginning�?�¢?? is not really a word that can always or must always mean �?�¢??beginning.�?�¢?? It is the word �?�¢??arche.�?�¢?? The English here is terribly ambiguous. �?�¢??Arche�?�¢?? means �?�¢??first cause.�?�¢??
It sometimes could be translated �?�¢??the author�?�¢?? or �?�¢??the pioneer�?�¢?? or �?�¢??the generating power.�?�¢?? �?�¢??The first cause�?�¢??�?�¢??read it that way. He is the first cause of the creation of God.
That is not saying He was created by God; that is saying He is the Creator. When Jesus is seen in his incarnation as the Son, He is the primary one of all of God�?�¢??s creation. When He is seen here in Revelation 3:14, He is the cause of creation.
John puts it clearly in John 1, �?�¢??Without him was not anything made that was made.�?�¢?? He is the source of all creation and in his incarnation was the supreme creature God ever made. And that refers, of course, to his physical body."
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-A-6.htm
[/quote]
Regarding Col 1:15 “He is…the firstborn of all creation” is talking about the fact that Jesus was the first person to be born spiritually alive (because he was conceived of the Holy Spirit). Adam was created spiritually alive, but immediately died spiritually when he sinned (and he eventually died physically as a result)…
…Also, see Col 1:18 “He is…the firstborn from the dead.” Who are the dead? Everyone not born again of the Spirit. Because of Adam we are all born spiritually dead and need life. Jesus was the firstborn; I don’t know who the second was, but I know there have been many after him born of the Spirit…
[/quote]
You’re dead wrong but there’s not much sense arguing with a Jehovah’s Witness. You and other JWs have grossly misinterpreted this verse and it is a travesty. To deny the deity of Christ is heresy. You have to piss all over the rest of the Bible to make this perverted point about Christ.
Don’t take this as being uncivil though. Not my intent.[/quote]
Push,
I am not a Jehovahâ??s Witness. I agree with you that JWs grossly distort the scriptures. I do not deny the divinity of Christ as do JWs, but believe that Jesus is God.
I do not disagree with what you wrote. I was adding my input on the topic of Jesus being the firstborn, and don’t see where it contradicted you. But, I can see where I was probably being too succinct and what I wrote could be misunderstood.
I wonâ??t try to re-explain on that topic, but relative to that topic I will just say that I believe that man was created to be indwelt by God to be functional as God intended. God is able to accomplish this through the expression of Himself by His Holy Spirit indwelling His creation. Adam and Eve rejected God, and God withdrew Himself, effectively removing His Spirit from within them, so that they died spiritually.
Everyone who has been born from Adam and Eve are then born spiritually dead, not having the life of God within them. Everyone is therefore born in a condition that demonstrates what it is like not to have God.
Salvation involves solving this problem. The problem being that we are born into this world spiritually dead, and we need to be resurrected from the dead by receiving the life of God that had been lost in Adam. Jesus solved this problem by dying for our sins and then offered to us the free gift of life.
