Here it is again:WE SLEEP SAFE IN OUR BEDS,BECAUSE ROUGH MEN STAND READY IN THE NIGHT TO VISIT VIOLENCE ON THOSE WHO WOULD DO US HARM (G.ORWELL).Regarless of your political views, support the troops.
Way to go, Georgieboy.
Any amount of casualties in either Iraq or Afghanistan is tragic.
However, the casualty levels in both Iraq and Afghanistan have been extremely low by historical standards. Forget a comparison with Viet Nam – try doing a comparison with the number of soldiers who die in peacetime due to various training accidents with the numbers thus far.
In my mind, “quagmire” implies we are losing. We completely overran Iraq and Afghanistan. While there may be pockets of resistance – mostly being sustained by foreign money and supplies from Iran, if the latest reports are correct – one would have to be completely myopic to think we are losing, or that we lost. We did not lose a single engagement, let alone a battle.
Will42, my life is “sick” and “pointless”? Gee, you know so much about me.
chrisr:
Any thoughts on that elevated American casualty count in April of 1969?
Mufasa
I too thought that the Tet Offensive in 1968 would be the month with the most fatalities but actually the whole deal is alot more symbolic then I previously thought:
“The US Forces lost 119 killed, with 961 wounded, ARVN Marine [these are the South Vietnamese troops] losses were 363 killed with 1,242 wounded, while the NVA/VC lost over 8,000 killed”-- everywhere I look I get conflicting information, but the one source that I believe to be reputable is the Comptroller, Secy of Defense, so that is what I am going with.
119 US soldiers killed is a drop in the bucket considering the amount of people we had in country at the time. But the reason why the Tet offensive was such a big deal was that it was the first time fighting took place on a large scale in the cities. Now the public back home had to watch as MPs had to fight VC who were inside the US embassy in Saigon. Walter Cronkite misled the public when he implied the US was losing control of Vietnam and the war. In reality the it was a lopsided military defeat for the North, but that was expected. General Giap, the architect of the offensive, said that he would lose 10 men for every enemy he killed. It was a propaganda battle, in which the North one decisively.
An interesting fact about April of 1969 is that month the number of US combat deaths exceeded the amount in the Korean War.
I have really no explanation why April 1969 had the highest amount of casualties, but it really is probably a random occurence considering that from Feb 1968-Sep 1969, there were over 500 KIA every single month. April of 69 only had 5 more KIA than March 69 and only 3 more than May 69.
Here is the web site with the month by month breakdown:
I’ve actually read that in 1968, the year of Tet, 11,000 U.S. soldiers were killed, which divided by 12 is greater than any month on the link that chrisr posted (I’m not impugning the credibility of that link)
I just finished a great book on Vietnam called “Dispatches,” and the journalist-author makes it sounds like a 1000 guys would die on a given day. So the statistics chrisr linked to are quite interesting for me.
Thanks, chris!
Again…I’m thinking:
- A lot of counter-offensive operations and
2)Hill Fighting in the Au Chau Valley
I’ll have to research this a little more too…
Mufasa
chrisr and Brian:
Casualty statistics can be tricky…and the Hill Fighting of Vietnam is a prime example…
I went to my Library and looked up a few references on the Battle of Dong Ap Bia (Ap Bia Mountain/Hill 937/“Hamburger Hill”), which was sort of the “focal point” of the U.S. strategy to neutralize the A Shau Valley where large numbers of ARVN troops had amassed.
Now…the Battle is “officially” listed as lasting from 10May-21May,1969, spearheaded by the U.S. 101st Airborne Division. Now here is the problem.
Those dates represent the push UP the mountain, and represent a time frame in which 70 Americans were listed as dead and 372 wounded. While the fighting was fierce, relentless and at times hand-to-hand, THE MAJORITY OF U.S. CASULATIES OCCURRED IN PREPARATION FOR THE ASSAULT UP THE MOUNTAIN. In other words, April 1969(and months prior) were times of fierce combat in the A Shau, PRIOR to the actual assault up Ap Bia Mountain…and as I mentioned earlier, offensives and counter-offensives were going on all over Vietnam.One could very well see why that month (April, 1969) could list such a high casualty count.
One other footnote on Hamburger Hill…
Much like the Hill Fighting of Korea, Ap Bia was “useless” strategically…but this time, Hill Fighting sparked a fierce debate in Congress about sending young men to die because of objectives that were questionable at best…
On a personal note…reading more closely about this particular time in Vietnam made me realize that we had the best young people in the world doing their job. Despite how unpopular a War may be…let’s never forget what they sacrifice…
Mufasa
Just a follow-up:
This past week in Iraq, we lost more American lives (80) than in the Assault up Dong Ap Bia (“Hamburger Hil”). Total casualties appear to be less, however.
I hope that there is NO one who thinks that Iraq is not a War…it is in every sense of the word…
Mufasa
Mufasa, you’re the voice of reason…it’s nice to see you around here again. We need more sane voices like you.