Thanks oldtimer, they claim the losses from this transformer are absolutely minimal, I will look at that on Wikepedia also.
Shall I do a 7 day study or do you guys think 24 hours will be just as accurate? I’m quite a impatient guy…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
On that monitor you posted, kilowats per hour isn’t going to tell you much for a freezer.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, and at the risk of looking stupid: if we’re billed in kilowatt hours, isn’t measuring how many are used with and without the device fitted the true objective measure of whether or not this will reduce bills and overall consumption?
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
On that monitor you posted, kilowats per hour isn’t going to tell you much for a freezer.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, and at the risk of looking stupid: if we’re billed in kilowatt hours, isn’t measuring how many are used with and without the device fitted the true objective measure of whether or not this will reduce bills and overall consumption? [/quote]
kilowatt (x) hours are what we are billed in. kilowatts per (/) hour is a rate of consumption. It says something about energy cost used, and that may be an aggregate total you could use, but I’m not clear on what it means.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
On that monitor you posted, kilowats per hour isn’t going to tell you much for a freezer.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, and at the risk of looking stupid: if we’re billed in kilowatt hours, isn’t measuring how many are used with and without the device fitted the true objective measure of whether or not this will reduce bills and overall consumption? [/quote]
kilowatt (x) hours are what we are billed in. kilowatts per (/) hour is a rate of consumption. It says something about energy cost used, and that may be an aggregate total you could use, but I’m not clear on what it means.[/quote]
Me neither. But if the device allows the appliances to operate to an acceptable standard and use LESS KWHr’s than when it ISN’T installed, its doing its job, and that is EXACTLY what I want to find out. Thanks again guys…
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
On that monitor you posted, kilowats per hour isn’t going to tell you much for a freezer.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, and at the risk of looking stupid: if we’re billed in kilowatt hours, isn’t measuring how many are used with and without the device fitted the true objective measure of whether or not this will reduce bills and overall consumption? [/quote]
kilowatt (x) hours are what we are billed in. kilowatts per (/) hour is a rate of consumption. It says something about energy cost used, and that may be an aggregate total you could use, but I’m not clear on what it means.[/quote]
Me neither. But if the device allows the appliances to operate to an acceptable standard and use LESS KWHr’s than when it ISN’T installed, its doing its job, and that is EXACTLY what I want to find out. Thanks again guys…
[/quote]
KWhr doesn’t equal KW/Hr.
And on something like a freezer, KW/hr could go down while total energy consumed goes up.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
On that monitor you posted, kilowats per hour isn’t going to tell you much for a freezer.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance, and at the risk of looking stupid: if we’re billed in kilowatt hours, isn’t measuring how many are used with and without the device fitted the true objective measure of whether or not this will reduce bills and overall consumption? [/quote]
kilowatt (x) hours are what we are billed in. kilowatts per (/) hour is a rate of consumption. It says something about energy cost used, and that may be an aggregate total you could use, but I’m not clear on what it means.[/quote]
Me neither. But if the device allows the appliances to operate to an acceptable standard and use LESS KWHr’s than when it ISN’T installed, its doing its job, and that is EXACTLY what I want to find out. Thanks again guys…
[/quote]
KWhr doesn’t equal KW/Hr.
And on something like a freezer, KW/hr could go down while total energy consumed goes up.[/quote]
Sorry, KWhr is what I meant. Maybe thats what the device does-increases energy but uses less KW/hr’s so the bill goes down?
This device claims to save money, if I measure the KW/hr’s with it fitted, and they are lower than with it not fitted, surely I’m saving money?
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.[/quote]
kw/hr is what is immediately consummed.
But there is no steady state for a freezer, it’s all cycles. You could decrease the kw/hr when the compressor is on, but if it stays on longer, you may be increasing the energy it is using (and the amount you are paying to run it)
You are going to need to log it for a longer period of time to get an average.
Sorry, energy testing on refrigerators isn’t simple. Something like electronics may work better for you.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.[/quote]
kw/hr is what is immediately consummed.
But there is no steady state for a freezer, it’s all cycles. You could decrease the kw/hr when the compressor is on, but if it stays on longer, you may be increasing the energy it is using (and the amount you are paying to run it)
You are going to need to log it for a longer period of time to get an average.
Sorry, energy testing on refrigerators isn’t simple. Something like electronics may work better for you.[/quote]
How long do you recommend I test the fridge/freezer for? I’ll start from room temp, I would like this test to be as accurate as possible so your advice and feedback is appreciated, if I knew the best way to go about this I wouldn’t be on here asking for advice. Do you recommend I measure the power with a different instrument? I have access to various bits and pieces…
BB
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.[/quote]
kw/hr is what is immediately consummed.
But there is no steady state for a freezer, it’s all cycles. You could decrease the kw/hr when the compressor is on, but if it stays on longer, you may be increasing the energy it is using (and the amount you are paying to run it)
You are going to need to log it for a longer period of time to get an average.
Sorry, energy testing on refrigerators isn’t simple. Something like electronics may work better for you.[/quote]
How long do you recommend I test the fridge/freezer for? I’ll start from room temp, I would like this test to be as accurate as possible so your advice and feedback is appreciated, if I knew the best way to go about this I wouldn’t be on here asking for advice. Do you recommend I measure the power with a different instrument? I have access to various bits and pieces…
BB
[/quote]
I’d say something like 36-48 hours minimum, a week or more would be better.
remember to keep the door closed.
You should see how complicated it gets once you start dealing with testing to bureaucratic regulation and trying to get energy star ratings.
AC never fails to impress.
My old physics teacher said old school electricians would touch hot wires with the back of their hands, so that, if it were “hot,” the hand wouldn’t clench around the wire.
OG
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.[/quote]
kw/hr is what is immediately consummed.
But there is no steady state for a freezer, it’s all cycles. You could decrease the kw/hr when the compressor is on, but if it stays on longer, you may be increasing the energy it is using (and the amount you are paying to run it)
You are going to need to log it for a longer period of time to get an average.
Sorry, energy testing on refrigerators isn’t simple. Something like electronics may work better for you.[/quote]
How long do you recommend I test the fridge/freezer for? I’ll start from room temp, I would like this test to be as accurate as possible so your advice and feedback is appreciated, if I knew the best way to go about this I wouldn’t be on here asking for advice. Do you recommend I measure the power with a different instrument? I have access to various bits and pieces…
BB
[/quote]
I’d say something like 36-48 hours minimum, a week or more would be better.
remember to keep the door closed.
You should see how complicated it gets once you start dealing with testing to bureaucratic regulation and trying to get energy star ratings. [/quote]
The amount of food in the fridge is also going to make a huge difference.
Here’s what I’d do, this assumes the fridge is in a climate controlled room and the ambient temperature stays constant:
Completely empty the fridge and let it sit with the doors open and unplugged until it reaches room temperature. Put a thermometer in the fridge as a double check. Set the thermostat to the lowest setting and plug it back in. Listen for it to shut off and as soon as it does record the amount of time it ran, your kwh reading, and the temperature. Repeat with the transformer, making sure that the final temperature reading was the same for both tests.
Depending on the fridge, it may have to go through several cycles before it actaully gets down to temperature. One of those wireless thermometers might be beneficial so you can track the temperature better, just make sure to keep it in the same place for both tests.
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]buddaboy wrote:
I can also measure the total accumulated energy with that device so the consumption in KW/W which will also serve as a useful guideline to what is being consumed.[/quote]
kw/hr is what is immediately consummed.
But there is no steady state for a freezer, it’s all cycles. You could decrease the kw/hr when the compressor is on, but if it stays on longer, you may be increasing the energy it is using (and the amount you are paying to run it)
You are going to need to log it for a longer period of time to get an average.
Sorry, energy testing on refrigerators isn’t simple. Something like electronics may work better for you.[/quote]
How long do you recommend I test the fridge/freezer for? I’ll start from room temp, I would like this test to be as accurate as possible so your advice and feedback is appreciated, if I knew the best way to go about this I wouldn’t be on here asking for advice. Do you recommend I measure the power with a different instrument? I have access to various bits and pieces…
BB
[/quote]
I’d say something like 36-48 hours minimum, a week or more would be better.
remember to keep the door closed.
You should see how complicated it gets once you start dealing with testing to bureaucratic regulation and trying to get energy star ratings. [/quote]
The amount of food in the fridge is also going to make a huge difference.
Here’s what I’d do, this assumes the fridge is in a climate controlled room and the ambient temperature stays constant:
Completely empty the fridge and let it sit with the doors open and unplugged until it reaches room temperature. Put a thermometer in the fridge as a double check. Set the thermostat to the lowest setting and plug it back in. Listen for it to shut off and as soon as it does record the amount of time it ran, your kwh reading, and the temperature. Repeat with the transformer, making sure that the final temperature reading was the same for both tests.
Depending on the fridge, it may have to go through several cycles before it actaully gets down to temperature. One of those wireless thermometers might be beneficial so you can track the temperature better, just make sure to keep it in the same place for both tests.[/quote]
If you are going to go this approach, put the thermometer somewhere in the middle and don’t move it between tests. There are significant temperature gradients in the compartment.
I personally wouldn’t go this route because a startup cycle can have very different energy characteristics than the more constant cycling in a cold compartment.
Example, the unit may default to high speed on the compressor at startup assuming the compartment is warm, then once cold, it may switch to a lower speed. If the unit in standard operating is in low speed, measuring high speed efficiency at startup isn’t going to measure what you want to know.
You really have to get it into it’s standard operating condition and average it out over a period of time.
BUMP…
The experiment is underway, I appreciate there is an element of crudeness involved but I will post results in a week or so.
thanks for the responses guys.
Sorry for the late reply; I’ve been meaning to update this thread seeing as several people kindly took the time to advise me…
I only measured the power usage in KWH and there was virtually no difference with the device fitted, and due to the variables (which I controlled as best I could) the difference really wasn’t significant-it was like 1 KWH less! which as DD said could easily be due to not opening the door as many times or leaving it open for as long or due to ambient temperature changes.
Anyway: Thanks for all the input guys, much appreciated.
There was one of these deals going around recently that claimed to “save power” and Mrs. Jewbacca, who is normally smart, mind you, bought one.
I bitched and moaned about how stupid it was.
And well, it worked. Our bills were cut in half.
And I, the engineer (admittedly not an EE), was baffled.
Well, turns out it “worked” because it spoofed the digital electric meter somehow. We removed ours just as the inspectors came around because I read about it in the paper.
Still have it. On my list to take it apart.
T-Nation Electrical Engineers, Electricians, and maybe more importantly electronics technicians:
Please recommend your favorite (or some good) intro texts to circuits, analog circuits, and circuit board design.
Doesn’t have to be calculus level stuff, although that is OK-- I’m not looking to learn to derive any equations prove any electric theory.
Fundamentals of Electronics type stuff— practical.
Thanks!
Best book I had in college… actually the only one I would ever recommend