Sloth, I have never disagreed with the state being interested in child bearing and rearing, I’ve disagreed with the premise that the state only sanctions marriage because of child bearing and rearing.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
If the state doesn’t see any compelling interesting in encouraging procreation, intact families (and stable, lower-crime communities) and a steady stream of productive citizens, then why on Earth would they go out of their way to reward romantic relationships? What’s the point? I’m asking honestly because you appear to see some motivation here that has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN yet ROMANCE is somehow fantastically wonderfully special enough that we need to be subsidizing it across the entire spectrum of possibilities.
[/quote]
For the last time:
[center][i][u]ROMANCE = LOVE[/center][/u][/i][/quote]
Substitute romance for love. Now, same question.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
The state already recognizes sexual orientation/activity by recognizing marriage.
[/quote]
The state recognizes that the opposite sexes can propogate it’s citizens in intact homes with both mom and dad present, which happens to be the best enviroment for raising those children. Which in turn is more likely to produce tax producers instead of consumers (and non-felons). And, which provides tax producers to shoulder the entitlement obligations meant for elder generations. A problem now beginning to threaten SS and Medicare, for instance. Your, or anyone else’s, sex isn’t special to me, my neighbor, or the state. It isn’t worth privileging. Sex doesn’t public expectations and pressure to happen. Intact homes, bearing and rearing their OWN children? Ordering this act of procreation is a public and social concern. Drive through a ghetto and count the number of present fathers.
“Romance” and “sex” are complete nonsense answers. [/quote]
Exactly.
Grneyes, read this and re-read it. THIS is what we’ve been getting at for the past thousand posts or so. This is the bottom line. There is a REAL DIFFERENCE in kind here. Tell me you can see this.[/quote]Indeed. This is the empirical manifestation of my whole point about the consequences of societal libertine-ism. The society we have degenerated into would have been unthinkable at our founding. Our constitution could absolutely not be written as a governing document today. There is almost no self government left. People do not govern themselves. It is an unbridled self obsessed free for all. Detroit city is a 157 square mile monument to the immorality that lead us to gay marriage. That is so crystal clear it is almost frightening that people cannot see it.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
forlife wrote:<<< I’ve always considered you to be sincere, and even compassionate in your own way.
I’m compassionate because of God’s compassion on me. If you showed up at our church hand in hand with your boyfriend you would be welcomed. I mean really welcomed. We have a every form of redeemed Detroit street trash you can think of worshiping God in there LOL.[/quote]
High praise indeed! LMAO [/quote]To be clear, member discipline is thoroughly biblical and holiness is preached and upheld also by the standard of the Word of God. Unless dangerous, visitors are NEVER turned away though. Junkies, hookers, homeless, gays and gang bangers are welcome one n all. Just the kinds of folks Jesus loves to save. Our church is full of em made new in Him. The Pastor that preached Sunday is an ex high level interstate heroin dealer. One of the deacons (who is one of my best friends in this world) was an associate of his in those days (30 years ago) and now they do prison ministry together.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Um, you might have been the norm when the Puritans were the only people here, besides the Indians of course. At the time of this country’s fight for independence, things had loosened up, not by much, but they had. In fact, people had become much more religiously tolerant than the Puritans had been. We had weathered the superstition of the witchcraft trials. Many things had improved from the Puritan times to the late 1770s. [/quote]Every single thing I believe to the minutest theological detail was absolutely common and mainstream during the 18th century here. 27 of the signers of the D.O.I. had seminary degrees. Without the Christian God this nation could not have been founded. He was the bedrock of limited and self government. Your atheistic moral permissiveness is what is killing families and thereby this nation.
There does not exist language possible to convince me otherwise. It is a truth just as plainly self evident as the rights endowed to us by our creator that you so progressively don’t believe in(even though He says otherwise). Like it or not the God you despise made this nation great. The God who abominates all sexual impurity including homosexuality. I’ll say again. He is doing what he always does. Giving us what we want and we are suffering the consequences.
The truly twisted thing is you see this all this death, debauchery and mayhem today as “progress” from the days of our founding because whew, now gays will be able to pollute the marriage covenant. How far we’ve “progressed” huh?
you know, people are quick throw gym rats in the ignorant meat head category, but this forum really speaks volumes towards the intelligence and solid morality of the people on this site. congrats to the sate of new york, hopefully the rest of the country will follow suit
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:<<< This is not “national suicide.” It will not have an appreciable effect on this country’s development through history. >>>[/quote]It is the latest component in a national suicide that began in earnest in the 1960’s. It HAS AND IS having an appreciable effect. A devastating suicidal one. This country was built on the social/political/economic foundation of very limited public government through privately and voluntarily practiced Judeo-Christian morality.
Oh yes it was. Our founders clearly told us that. “The reason we can give you so few rules boys n girls is because you’re already so well behaved on the whole” to paraphrase in a nutshell. Even the total hypocritical pagans like Jefferson and Franklin clearly understood this.
The soil out of which new citizens grow is their family or lack thereof. Every single last issue killing this country is a direct consequence of that. The founders assumed that we would continue in the new testament model of one man and one woman for life wherein boundaries that engender self sacrifice, self control, decency, modesty and HONESTY in the act of upholding one’s vows because one’s word actually meant something. All of this was predicated upon the assumption that God designed it that way. That was the soil for new citizens they absolutely counted on for their experiment in self government to succeed and it did.
We skyrocketed into the most prosperous, powerful, feared and respected nation in all of human history over the course of a few generations BECAUSE despite our human foibles we were the most moral because we were the most Christian. Look at the soil our citizens are growing in now. Children of the hippies. Hedonistic, self obsessed, narcissistic, materialistic whores whose mission in life is bringing themselves the most pleasure in the most rapid fashion possible.
ALL the economic woes we are now in ARE, make no mistake, the consequence of the sexually moral degeneration of this nation’s citizenry resulting in the destruction of the foundational social unit upon which she was built and out of which her members are spawned. Even Stalin understood this. He told the world that the United Sates would never be defeated as long as she maintained her spirituality and hence MORality.
Wanna know what’s rotting this nation dead from the inside out like an oozing flesh eating virus? Go look in your Sex and the Male Animal forum. We will destroy OURSELVES to the snickering glee of our many enemies without a shot being fired, all in the name of getting laid. Gay marriage is just the latest chapter.
[/quote]
you are so brain washed its disgusting, yeah fuckin disgusting, theirs a reason christianity and all religion for that matter gets a bad rap with anyone not belonging to organized religion, YOU make us all look like brain dead cronies that can’t think for ourselves, im not telling you what to believe, but i am telling you not to believe everything you here, think for your fucking self? whose business is it if a man wants to marry another man? ill give you a hint, its not yours! what kind of american, or actually, what kind of decent human being uses joseph fuckin stalin to validate a point?! go ahead and tell us all how godless we are, guess what i look and the sex an the male animal forum all the time! i love starring and chicks. i have my own personal relationship with god because thats what i believe in, its not my position to tell anyone else what to believe, but if there are gays on this planet, then god put them here
oh one more thing Tiribulus, your a real piece of shit , yeah im fuckin mean i know
If I were a boxing referee, I’d be inclined to stop this fight. Strong work, Sloth and Cortes.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
forlife wrote:<<< I’ve always considered you to be sincere, and even compassionate in your own way.
I’m compassionate because of God’s compassion on me. If you showed up at our church hand in hand with your boyfriend you would be welcomed. I mean really welcomed. We have a every form of redeemed Detroit street trash you can think of worshiping God in there LOL.[/quote]
High praise indeed! LMAO [/quote]To be clear, member discipline is thoroughly biblical and holiness is preached and upheld also by the standard of the Word of God. Unless dangerous, visitors are NEVER turned away though. Junkies, hookers, homeless, gays and gang bangers are welcome one n all. Just the kinds of folks Jesus loves to save. Our church is full of em made new in Him. The Pastor that preached Sunday is an ex high level interstate heroin dealer. One of the deacons (who is one of my best friends in this world) was an associate of his in those days (30 years ago) and now they do prison ministry together.
[/quote]
One thing I will say for you guys is that you do provide hope, direction, and support for people who might otherwise lose themselves to addiction, crime, and self-destructive behaviors. Some people simply haven’t developed the self-discipline and strategic thinking necessary to sustain a happy, productive life. Religion can offer that to people, even if the beliefs themselves don’t reflect reality.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Um, you might have been the norm when the Puritans were the only people here, besides the Indians of course. At the time of this country’s fight for independence, things had loosened up, not by much, but they had. In fact, people had become much more religiously tolerant than the Puritans had been. We had weathered the superstition of the witchcraft trials. Many things had improved from the Puritan times to the late 1770s. [/quote]Every single thing I believe to the minutest theological detail was absolutely common and mainstream during the 18th century here. 27 of the signers of the D.O.I. had seminary degrees. Without the Christian God this nation could not have been founded. He was the bedrock of limited and self government. Your atheistic moral permissiveness is what is killing families and thereby this nation.
There does not exist language possible to convince me otherwise. It is a truth just as plainly self evident as the rights endowed to us by our creator that you so progressively don’t believe in(even though He says otherwise). Like it or not the God you despise made this nation great. The God who abominates all sexual impurity including homosexuality. I’ll say again. He is doing what he always does. Giving us what we want and we are suffering the consequences.
The truly twisted thing is you see this all this death, debauchery and mayhem today as “progress” from the days of our founding because whew, now gays will be able to pollute the marriage covenant. How far we’ve “progressed” huh?[/quote]
Actually, the majority of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. There were exceptions, particularly Anglicans, but most did not have traditional Christian beliefs and vehemently disagreed with what you claim to be true.
[quote]forlife wrote:
One thing I will say for you guys is that you do provide hope, direction, and support for people who might otherwise lose themselves to addiction, crime, and self-destructive behaviors. [/quote]
Like homosexuality which is a most dangerous activity, both physically and mentally. At least according to the CDC.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:<<< Um, you might have been the norm when the Puritans were the only people here, besides the Indians of course. At the time of this country’s fight for independence, things had loosened up, not by much, but they had. In fact, people had become much more religiously tolerant than the Puritans had been. We had weathered the superstition of the witchcraft trials. Many things had improved from the Puritan times to the late 1770s. [/quote]Every single thing I believe to the minutest theological detail was absolutely common and mainstream during the 18th century here. 27 of the signers of the D.O.I. had seminary degrees. Without the Christian God this nation could not have been founded. He was the bedrock of limited and self government. Your atheistic moral permissiveness is what is killing families and thereby this nation.
There does not exist language possible to convince me otherwise. It is a truth just as plainly self evident as the rights endowed to us by our creator that you so progressively don’t believe in(even though He says otherwise). Like it or not the God you despise made this nation great. The God who abominates all sexual impurity including homosexuality. I’ll say again. He is doing what he always does. Giving us what we want and we are suffering the consequences.
The truly twisted thing is you see this all this death, debauchery and mayhem today as “progress” from the days of our founding because whew, now gays will be able to pollute the marriage covenant. How far we’ve “progressed” huh?[/quote]
Actually, the majority of the founding fathers were Deists, not Christians. There were exceptions, particularly Anglicans, but most did not have traditional Christian beliefs and vehemently disagreed with what you claim to be true.[/quote]
I’ll give you credit for one thing forlife, you’ve never let the facts or any part of the truth stand in the way of pushing your weird agenda.
You’re wrong (again and again) forlife.
The majority of the founding fathers were Christian, the majority being Episcopalian and Presbytarian.
[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
oh one more thing Tiribulus, your a real piece of shit , yeah im fuckin mean i know [/quote]
Isn’t there some sort of teen dance you’re late to?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
…People get jealous, period. What does that have to with binary or polyamorous arrangments that handle it?[/quote]
You mean the ones that are started within the confines of a kooky cult?
[/quote]
Bigot![/quote]
Or you could answer the question. Are those the ones he means? I’ve yet to see a polyamorous arrangement last a life time unless part of a stifling cult where men have all the power. I’ve seen gay couples last a lifetime outside of any religious influence.
So just answer the question.[/quote]
Well now, how does it feel to have a bigoted attitude when it comes to polygamous relationships? Because in your limited experience you’ve not seen those types of relationships last a lifetime they are therefore not acceptable? You’ve lived so long and have such vast experience that your funny little anecdotal example means something? LOL
BIGOT!
Wading through this all is the basic idea that some sort of State recognition is needed. From a Jewish persepective, this is nonsense.*
A core element of a Jewish marriage ceremony is the Ketubah — it’s literally a pre-nuputual agreement, and while certain elements are mandatory under Jewish law, other things (like property division, children, all the crap people are worried about on this thread) can be spelled out, too.
You sign the ketubah; that’s your deal. If your religion (or lack thereof) recognizes it, so much the better.
If religions (or other religions) don’t recognize it, why do you care? It’s not your religion.
I suppose any two consenting adults can sign such an agreement, and call it whatever the hell they want to call it and have whatever the hell they want to go with it — powers of attorney, health care visitation, wills, whatever.
What “marriage” is to the State is a pre-made, state-approved, ketubah contract. It’s a one-size, fits all, contract, and fits all people as well as a a random off-the-rack suit that is not altered.
The solution, as always, is never MORE government interfereance. It’s less.
People get into whatever private contractual relationship they want to get into, and the State does get invovled in the process, at all.
The solution here is find where the State treats married people differently (e.g., marriage penalty under tax code) and remove those distinctions.
- No, people of the same sex cannot be married under Jewish Law, but I am presuming the people are not Jewish or desire to reject Judaism and remove themselves from the Jewish people.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
oh one more thing Tiribulus, your a real piece of shit , yeah im fuckin mean i know [/quote]
Isn’t there some sort of teen dance you’re late to?
[/quote]
eh whatever, fuck you, i dont even care to much to rebuttal that
[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
oh one more thing Tiribulus, your a real piece of shit , yeah im fuckin mean i know [/quote]
Isn’t there some sort of teen dance you’re late to?
[/quote]
eh whatever, fuck you, i dont even care to much to rebuttal that
[/quote]
LOL…I think you’ve already let us know what you’re all about with this post. It’s a real treasure junior.
[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
oh one more thing Tiribulus, your a real piece of shit , yeah im fuckin mean i know [/quote]
Just because he has an opinion that’s different from yours, it makes him a POS?
You’re a great representative for SSM. Thanks.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
…People get jealous, period. What does that have to with binary or polyamorous arrangments that handle it?[/quote]
You mean the ones that are started within the confines of a kooky cult?
[/quote]
Bigot![/quote]
Or you could answer the question. Are those the ones he means? I’ve yet to see a polyamorous arrangement last a life time unless part of a stifling cult where men have all the power. I’ve seen gay couples last a lifetime outside of any religious influence.
So just answer the question.[/quote]
Well now, how does it feel to have a bigoted attitude when it comes to polygamous relationships? Because in your limited experience you’ve not seen those types of relationships last a lifetime they are therefore not acceptable? You’ve lived so long and have such vast experience that your funny little anecdotal example means something? LOL
BIGOT![/quote]
Your traditional age jab notwithstanding, are you capable of providing an answer? Does he mean an arrangement started within the confines of a cult like religion or not?