Any Dudes Wanna Get Married?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]forlife wrote:

I vote for people that advocate equality, and trust the civil rights process to continue progressing as it has done historically.

If you don’t like it, feel free to stand against the tide. I’m not going to change your mind, and have no need to do so.[/quote]

Yet again, you didn’t answer the question.

Let me try it this way - have you ever had a face-to-face conversation (or equivalent, like at a protest) with a black American opposed to gay marriage and denounced their bigotry to them personally?

Yes? Or no?

202

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

I vote for people that advocate equality, and trust the civil rights process to continue progressing as it has done historically.

If you don’t like it, feel free to stand against the tide. I’m not going to change your mind, and have no need to do so.[/quote]

Yet again, you didn’t answer the question.

Let me try it this way - have you ever had a face-to-face conversation (or equivalent, like at a protest) with a black American opposed to gay marriage and denounced their bigotry to them personally?

Yes? Or no?[/quote]

No.

If the opportunity arose, I would express my opinion identically, regardless of the color of their skin. I couldn’t care less what color they are.

203

[quote]If these books are said to be divinely inspired, why would G-d tolerate such an immoral act?
[/quote]

The same reason He “tolerates” all our other sins.

The Law (which does not apply to you, BTW, it applies only to Jewish people) was a MINIMUM standard of behavior to avoid divine punishment.

In short, “go over this line, and G-d will curse you.”

The actual divine standard (as stated by Rabbi Hillel and later repeated by a Nazarine of some considerable import) was “Love thy neighbor as thyself.”

Follow this standard, G-d will bless you.

Anything that falls short of the divine standard is still a sin, including (most probably) enslaving others.

204

[quote]forlife wrote:

No. [/quote]

That’s the answer I was expecting.

What opportunity are you waiting on? The Civil Rights warriors of the past deliberately confronted their oppressors - they didn’t wait on “opportunities”.

So, your movement is equal to the Civil Rights movement. What are you waiting for? Where is your equivalent to proactively using race-restricted amenities to defy the bigots and getting the hose turned on you by Bull Connor and his henchmen?

I mean, it’s equal to the Civil Rights movement…right?

Why isn’t the gay community - and yourself - going into the heart of the beast - black communities - and confronting this bigotry with no apology, like the Civil Rights warriors of the past?

205

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Tirib, let me focus on this part of your statement:
“Gay marriage is simply a natural step in devaluing THE single component that most accounted for our rise and is now the direct cause of our fall. Gays can do what they want. I will not be kicking their doors down, but DO NOT attempt to sell that to me as marriage or a family.”

It sounds like you don’t have a problem with gays per se. >>>[/quote]Follow me please. According to the Word of God it is an abomination. A damnable perversion of the created order of the holy designer. Therefore I abhor the practice accordingly as one who proclaims Jesus as my Lord. HOWEVER, my life before Christ was also a damnable abomination and I regularly committed acts of all kinds that should have bought me a one way ticket to the lake of fire. It is only by the unsearchable grace of a merciful God that I type this as a new creature in Christ having been transformed by the power of His blood and resurrection. I am not allowed to hate or self righteously condescend to ANYBODY.

Take elder forlife as an example. I honestly and truly pray for him AND his “partner”. He may not know or believe this, but I have invested myself in him. I care about him. I want him as my brother. How can that ever be if somebody were to round him up and kill him? That’s not what I want. This is not theocratic Israel. One strike and you’re out. I should have been struck dead where I stood ten thousand times. How am I gonna put my nose in the air and cringe and wince at the “filthy fag and his homo boyfriend”? No sir. To me he’s just another lost man who needs Jesus. My hand is always out to him. [quote]MikeTheBear wrote:<<< I mean, unlike those folks at Westboro Baptist, you’re not looking to round up gays and put them in prison. >>>[/quote]Phelps and his Westboro crew are traitors to the very gospel of grace they claim to preach. They do not know their own sin and it is that that produces their anti-Christian holier than thou hatred. [quote]MikeTheBear wrote:I’m guessing you probably don’t care if gay couples buy houses together, live together, make medical decisions for one another, and inherit property when one partner passes away. You have a problem with attaching the word “marriage” and “family” to such relationships. Is that right? >>>[/quote] As I said. I have a major problem with homosexuality period. My purpose in their regard on this planet though is to reflect to them the everlasting lovingkindness shown to me. As I read the scriptures, that purpose is not served by unduly suffocating their lives. I would like it if nobody was gay, but being that some are, I’m not going to be the one to tell otherwise peaceable citizens who can legally do what within the context of their private life. I will however never relent from calling them to repentance and declaring their lifestyle the horrific sin that it is.

Lastly for now, NO NO NO a thousand times NO!!! Making homosexuality marriage and or family is as I say, another indicative of a society that has clearly lost it’s way and is not long for this world in anything like it’s historical stature. To sum up? I would enter a burning building to drag elder forlife to safety. I really would (as I’m preaching the gospel to him even if he was unconscious =] ) That is not just talk and I would not be sorry I did even if he told to f**k off after I saved his life. The Lord loved me and did not give up on me long after I had given up on myself. How can I give anybody else less? Homosexuality is still a capitol crime before the throne of the most high God and I will never dare call it anything else or accept it’s being given social status reserved for a man, his female wife and their children. Many will write me off (again) as an anachronistic fanatical religious antique best put away in an attic somewhere. I couldn’t care less. [/quote]

Well, I suppose I’d be joining you in that attic, or at least a corner of it, given that I’m one of the geekiest people there is. I’ve said many times that I’ve probably lived a “purer” lifestyle than most Christians.

I do understand what you’re saying - this is the argument that many religious people make that if we turn our back on God then God will turn His back on us. I get that on some level. But as you know, I’m an agnostic, and even if there is a God out there, I see zero evidence that this God is involved in our lives. So, the idea that something is an “abonimation before God” is not a sufficient reason for anything. Granted, many things that religion prohibits are also things that society should prohibit. But some things, like the kosher laws, no longer make sense.

I also have very strong libertarian tendencies which means that I value individual rights and wish to limit government involvement in our rights. As I mentioned, government is there to protect citizens from harm. And our system of laws recognizes that adults capable of consenting can even consent to be harmed to some extent. For example, if I punch someone in the street, I have committed a battery. If I punch someone in a boxing match, there is no crime, because my opponent has consented to participate in an event knowing that he may very well be hit in the face.

So, given this framework, what is the harm that results from allowing gay couples to form a legally recognized partnership, aka marriage?

You mentioned that it devalues marriage. Let’s look at this. When something is devalued it means that it is no longer considered important. Presumably the message behind devaluing marriage is that living the single life with a different sex partner each night, with no concern for the future, is way better than settling down with someone in a caring, committed relationship, and having a family. The strange thing is that gay marriage does not send this message. Think about it: here’s this group of people who supposedly lived this abominable lifestyle, yet they too are saying that they are tired of living this single lifestyle and want to live in a committed, long-term relationship, and they simply want this relationship recognized by the state.

206

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

No. [/quote]

That’s the answer I was expecting.

What opportunity are you waiting on? The Civil Rights warriors of the past deliberately confronted their oppressors - they didn’t wait on “opportunities”.

So, your movement is equal to the Civil Rights movement. What are you waiting for? Where is your equivalent to proactively using race-restricted amenities to defy the bigots and getting the hose turned on you by Bull Connor and his henchmen?

I mean, it’s equal to the Civil Rights movement…right?

Why isn’t the gay community - and yourself - going into the heart of the beast - black communities - and confronting this bigotry with no apology, like the Civil Rights warriors of the past?[/quote]

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.

207

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

No. [/quote]

That’s the answer I was expecting.

What opportunity are you waiting on? The Civil Rights warriors of the past deliberately confronted their oppressors - they didn’t wait on “opportunities”.

So, your movement is equal to the Civil Rights movement. What are you waiting for? Where is your equivalent to proactively using race-restricted amenities to defy the bigots and getting the hose turned on you by Bull Connor and his henchmen?

I mean, it’s equal to the Civil Rights movement…right?

Why isn’t the gay community - and yourself - going into the heart of the beast - black communities - and confronting this bigotry with no apology, like the Civil Rights warriors of the past?[/quote]

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

LOL…blatant lie! the lastest public opinion polls show that almost 60% of the US adult population oppose gay marriage.

http://www.nomblog.com/1617/

And in some polls it’s as high as 70% opposition to gay marriage!

You are getting your lunch eaten forlife so you resort to lies. Some things never change.

208

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Nope. Historically, marriage began as a legal institution.
[/quote]
In what history? Game of Thrones?

[quote]

In feudal times it was a way for the landowning elite to accumulate more land and pass that land on to “legitimate” heirs. [/quote]

Yes, for the .00001% of people who were nobility. That said, the only records of the same were kept in Churches or Shuls, or whatever.

Indeed, the right of nobles to be “noble” was the “Divine Right of Kings,” granted to them by the Roman Catholic Church (most typically).

[quote]
Marriages were arranged - love was irrelevant. [/quote]

Yes, by the ladies of the Shul or Church or whatever.

Cue “Matchmaker, Matchmaker, make me a match.”

As long as we’re singing show tunes from musicals - ironic given that this is a thread about gay marriage - the other song from “Fiddler” was “If I Were a Rich Man.” As I recall the story, the matchmaker had planned to set up Tevye’s daughter with the butcher, who was older than she and ugly, as I recall. But the daughter wanted nothing to do with the butcher because she loved some other guy, who was a tailor I think. But he wasn’t as established in his trade as the butcher. And this was all that mattered to Tevye. Given that he himself was not a rich man, he wanted his daughters to be take care of. Love was irrelevant; economic security was. And this was why matchmaking was left to the elders and religious leaders. If left to their own devices, children would marry for such frivolous reasons as love and affection when the point of marriage was economic security.

Now I must lift. All this talk of musicals has made me feel kind of gay. :slight_smile:

209

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
But the daughter wanted nothing to do with the butcher because she loved some other guy, who was a tailor I think. But he wasn’t as established in his trade as the butcher. And this was all that mattered to Tevye. Given that he himself was not a rich man, he wanted his daughters to be take care of. Love was irrelevant; economic security was. [/quote]

Actually, Tevye caved to his daughter’s wishes, made up an elaborate lie to his wife, and he permitted the marriage — which was recognized by no one other than the Shul, not the State, which was the point — the State does not, and should not need to be involved, in marriage.

But, if you want to bring it into the context of gay marriage, the daughter’s primary logical objection to the old butcher was she wanted a child, and Motel (ma-tle, not “motel”) was young enough to easily father children.

210

So, is there anyone else besides forlife?

211

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

So, is there anyone else besides forlife? [/quote]

Nah, I’m pretty much it :wink:

212

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?

213

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

What is your fascination with Black Americans? The only reason they poll so high against gay marriage is because they are also more likely to believe in your sky wizard.

214

[quote]doogie wrote:

What is your fascination with Black Americans? The only reason they poll so high against gay marriage is because they are also more likely to believe in your sky wizard.[/quote]

Because gay marriage advocates constantly argue that their movement is in every way identical to the Civil Rights movement. It isn’t - but it’s worth exploring the comparison, especially since the beneficiaries of the Civil Rights movement are now the archvillains of this “identical” political movement.

As to your point - it isn’t really one, it’s just an attempt to slander a group of people for having religious beliefs, and, of course, the fantastic irony is that so much of the original Civil Rights movement was an expression of and motivated by spiritual belief in natural rights, whereas in the current case, there’s no connection to such. Yet another reason to recognize the distinction between the Civil Rights movement and the gay marriage movement.

Outside of reducing the collective IQ of PWI, you haven’t accomplished much with this.

215

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

If you look historically, gays did get militantly involved in the civil rights movement (Stonewall Riots, etc.). The country needed a wake up call, and we provided it.

The focus now is on public education (Tyler Clementi’s suicide at Rutgers, Obama and others addressing bullying of gay kids, etc.) and on legislation supporting equal rights (overturning Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell, Lawrence V. Texas, gay marriage in New York, etc,). All of this progress has happened in just the last decade.

Public opinion favors equal rights for gays now more than ever before. For the first time since Gallup started tracking the issue in their Values and Beliefs poll, the majority of Americans (53%) now favor legalizing gay marriage.

216

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

It is quite difficult for me to respond to this line of logic without using sarcasm. I tried twice, but could not. So I’m bowing out before I begin.

I think as more and more people are “exposed” to homosexuals, a lot of the anti-homosexual bigotry will go away. People’s opinions will change as they realize the demons in their heads don’t match up to the people in their communities.

217

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

If you look historically, gays did get militantly involved in the civil rights movement (Stonewall Riots, etc.). The country needed a wake up call, and we provided it.

The focus now is on public education (Tyler Clementi’s suicide at Rutgers, Obama and others addressing bullying of gay kids, etc.) and on legislation supporting equal rights (overturning Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell, Lawrence V. Texas, gay marriage in New York, etc,). All of this progress has happened in just the last decade.

Public opinion favors equal rights for gays now more than ever before. For the first time since Gallup started tracking the issue in their Values and Beliefs poll, the majority of Americans (53%) now favor legalizing gay marriage.

[/quote]

This is because many of the current generation who overwhelmingly support this stuff were raised by hippies, like Bill and Hillary, two genuine hippies. The hippies taught their kids that there is no God, no right or wrong, and basically let kids grow up by themselves while they (the hippie parents) hit the bong. That’s why the kids are a dumb as a stone and have no morals.

The good news is that the vacuum the hippies created (most modern 25 to 40 year olds) will be filled by the next generation, who’ll be forced to be moral because of the current crisis brought on by the hippies (debt, war, and so on). The kids who are currently coming into young adulthood will be heroes.

218

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

It is quite difficult for me to respond to this line of logic without using sarcasm. I tried twice, but could not. So I’m bowing out before I begin.

I think as more and more people are “exposed” to homosexuals, a lot of the anti-homosexual bigotry will go away. People’s opinions will change as they realize the demons in their heads don’t match up to the people in their communities.

[/quote]

Most gays stay away from the hetero community; we are boring with our monogamy, our belief in morals, and just maybe that there is a God. Gays find picking up guys in bathrooms with the famous foot tap and doing BJs to strangers far more entrancing, or sticking an unprotected penis where another guy shits to be too thrilling to skip.

When more Americans actually start thinking about it (as the hippie generation vanishes), they will be repelled by such repugnant actions and such can go back behind the dumpsters, where it belongs.

219

[quote]forlife wrotePublic opinion favors equal rights for gays now more than ever before. For the first time since Gallup started tracking the issue in their Values and Beliefs poll, the majority of Americans (53%) now favor legalizing gay marriage.
[/quote]

Polls are mixed no question. But claiming that your poll is correct is well, incorrect. If one took a “poll of polls” they would find that my figure above is accurate. Roughly 60% of all Americans still oppose gay marriage. What they are finding is that those under the age of 30 overwhelmingly support gay marriage. But those over 35 strongly oppose it, and the opposition grows deeper by leaps and bounds with every year of age over the age of 40. In separate polls it was found that as people get older they do get more conservative. So thinking that things will change as one generation passes on and another takes it’s place is overly optimistic, and certainly simplistic.

In addition to this when there is a referendum on gay marriage in someones area the vote is always thumbs down. This tells us that as an abstract thought many Americans are not opposed to it. But when it comes to having a say in legalizing it in their area they vote NO.

220

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

Because it isn’t necessary. Public opinion favoring equal rights for gays has progressed steadily, to the point where the majority now support same sex marriage.
[/quote]

During the Civil Rights movement, public opinion had “progressed” and was “progressing”, but that was no excuse for waiting to confront the evils of bigotry.

Something isn’t adding up. Homosexuals should be acting exactly like Civil Rights protesters, etc., and targeting black communities in the same way Civil Rights protesters targeted bastions of bigotry in the South during the 50s and 60s (like bus terminals and lunch counters, etc.).

But they ain’t. And you aren’t. Why is that?[/quote]

It is quite difficult for me to respond to this line of logic without using sarcasm. I tried twice, but could not. So I’m bowing out before I begin.

I think as more and more people are “exposed” to homosexuals, a lot of the anti-homosexual bigotry will go away. People’s opinions will change as they realize the demons in their heads don’t match up to the people in their communities.

[/quote]

Exactly. It’s harder to demonize and stereotype people when you know them personally. That’s when otherwise conservative people like Dick Cheney (who has a lesbian daughter) begin to see the human side of these social issues. People are coming out now more than ever before, from politicians and celebrities to sons, daughters, and neighbors. I honestly think this, more than anything, is what will ultimately drive social change.