[quote]vroom wrote:
…
I have to agree with Zap.
…[/quote]
Holy shit. We agree on two different threads.
We have this little thing here called the U.S. Constitution that doesn’t allow for religious education in publicly funded schools. You can’t just “push through” laws that violate the Constitution.
[quote]
CDM wrote:
And as you stated you are atheist, still took the class and learned from it, no worse for wear.[/quote]
Would these religious education classes include Satanism, Voodoo, Islam, and Wicka?
[quote]doogie wrote:
makkun wrote:
With this in mind, I don’t get why this often proclaimed christian majority does not push through religious education in schools. There are many secular countries which don’t have a problem with this. I had it, I learnt a lot in it, and I’m an atheist.
CDM wrote:
Brilliant point. The MSM often likes to trumpet about the Christian majority and how powerful it is and it’s influence on elections. But as you have pointed out this powerful body cannot even get religious education pushed through in schools.
We have this little thing here called the U.S. Constitution that doesn’t allow for religious education in publicly funded schools. You can’t just “push through” laws that violate the Constitution.
True enough, but you can if you look hard enough, read between enough lines, and have the right number of judges in your favor, you can certainly find “rights/laws” hidden in the Constitution. Not to go off topic but and as far as publicly funded schools and the types of things being taught, this is why I am for school vouchers. My money will still support the schools but the school of my choosing, making the whole debate, in my opinion, go away.
CDM wrote:
And as you stated you are atheist, still took the class and learned from it, no worse for wear.
Would these religious education classes include Satanism, Voodoo, Islam, and Wicka?
[/quote]
I have zero problem letting my kids sit through classes about other types of religion as long as one type is not promoted as being superior to the others.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The bitch should not have tried to impose her views on people that did not want to hear it.
Whether you acknowledge it or not there is often a double standard when it comes to religious expressions in schools.
I think the school district was right to shut her down. I only hope they treat other religions the same way.[/quote]
She was asked to speak , right ?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Their speech should not be censored - especially since they are being sent out into the adult world now. I just find it a little stupid for the school to feel they have any say in what the students say at that point. [/quote]
We agree, there. I just disagree that it’s a Constitutional issue… either for or against the speech.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The bitch should not have tried to impose her views on people that did not want to hear it.
Whether you acknowledge it or not there is often a double standard when it comes to religious expressions in schools.
I think the school district was right to shut her down. I only hope they treat other religions the same way.
She was asked to speak , right ?[/quote]
She was alos asked not to talk about that subject.
CDM,
[quote]CDM wrote:
[…]Brilliant point. The MSM often likes to trumpet about the Christian majority and how powerful it is and it’s influence on elections. But as you have pointed out this powerful body cannot even get religious education pushed through in schools. Hence the rise in home schooling and enrollment is private schools. And your second point is just as good, liberals in the US, have morphed what real liberalism used to be, tolerance for all things, into tolerance for what they think is right.[/quote]
I would argue that this is happening to the (religious) conservatives as well: Just as the “liberal” (in put this in quotation mark as the word has a different meaning in a European context) political establishment has positioned itself on a certain view, has the conservative done the same: And your example of pulling children out of school and “home schooling” them shows the above mentioned inability to deal with ambiguity. The US is a free country, and it is IMO not necessary to pull children out of an education system that might not exactly teach what they want - as there are enough chances for parents to “correct” what they perceive as mistakes.
Good point. Couldn’t agree more.
Makkun
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The bitch should not have tried to impose her views on people that did not want to hear it.
Whether you acknowledge it or not there is often a double standard when it comes to religious expressions in schools.
I think the school district was right to shut her down. I only hope they treat other religions the same way.
She was asked to speak , right ?
She was alos asked not to talk about that subject.[/quote]
She wasn’t just asked, they blocked out entire portions of her speech before she ever read it in public. She knew exactly what she was doing and they have every right to turn her mic off.
CDM,
[quote]CDM wrote:
And here is another example of that censorship. It is ok to have a school sponsered/supported “day of silence” for the gay/lesbian students so they can express their views, but it is not ok for the Christians to express their viewpoint. In my opinion, the gay community doesn’t just want tolerance, they want acceptance and approval and that is where they hit a wall.
[…][/quote]
Here, I cannot agree. The difference in this case of alleged censorship to the one discussed by the OP, is that the student made a negative statement about homosexuality (a group covered by anti-discrimination legislation), different to the girl in the first case, in which she made a positive statement about religion.
Comparing this to a political statement (a black armband against a war) is fallacious aswell, as it does not identify a group protected by anti-discrimination legislation. And - even if it might undermine a war-effort - it can be seen as a positive message: “War is bad, people die - stop war”, which might be disgustingly pacifist to some, but is still no discrimination. Now wearing “all soldiers are murderers” would be a different story.
So “christianity is cool” (which I would wish not be chastised) is ok - unfortunately the US school system does not allow for this statement, but “gays are bad” is not as it lends itself to exclusion and discrimination.
Makkun
doogie,
[quote]doogie wrote:
[…]Would these religious education classes include Satanism, Voodoo, Islam, and Wicka?
[/quote]
To be consequent, if religious education were to be introduced to US schools, I’d say “yes”. That’s part of my evil atheist plan…
Makkun
CDM,
[quote]CDM wrote:
[…]
I have zero problem letting my kids sit through classes about other types of religion as long as one type is not promoted as being superior to the others.[/quote]
With some of the religions (like christianity) having a claim on being the absolute truth (as numerous evangelical posters here have reiterated regularly), you will have a problem. Perhaps, although flawed, the secularised school system is fair after all…?
Makkun
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
She was preaching though–at a school function. It is one thing to thank God, and even Jesus for that matter but when you turn it into a lecture and start proselytizing it no longer smacks of thanfulness.
I don’t think free-speech applies at a state sponsored school function–so I don’t think this is an issue. As an atheist I would have probably walked out if I had to endure more than 15secs of religious speech.
I wonder how this would have been played out if the person had been Muslem?[/quote]
She was asked to speak and she was not preaching. She just gave a testimonial of her faith as part of her speech.
When a student is asked to speak at commencement it is understood that what he/she states will be their opinion and their beliefs related to life, leaving school, etc. So they had no cause to shut her down for doing just that.
I suspect that if she was praising Ala or Buddha everyone would have thought it was great.
My point is not that people should allow preaching at public forums, but that the same standard should be applied to all.
[quote]makkun wrote:
So “christianity is cool” (which I would wish not be chastised) is ok - unfortunately the US school system does not allow for this statement, but “gays are bad” is not as it lends itself to exclusion and discrimination.
Makkun[/quote]
Right, so, only upbeat free speech is allowed.
Everybody got that?
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
I suspect that if she was praising Ala or Buddha everyone would have thought it was great.
My point is not that people should allow preaching at public forums, but that the same standard should be applied to all.
[/quote]
We always hear this crap. Everybody wants the rules fairly applied it seems, but everybody is suspicious that those Islamic people are getting cut extra slack.
Yeah… likely story.
[quote]makkun wrote:
CDM,
CDM wrote:
[…]
I have zero problem letting my kids sit through classes about other types of religion as long as one type is not promoted as being superior to the others.
With some of the religions (like christianity) having a claim on being the absolute truth (as numerous evangelical posters here have reiterated regularly), you will have a problem. Perhaps, although flawed, the secularised school system is fair after all…?
Makkun[/quote]
Your logic is flawed as they currently teach political science in schools of which there are many political parties that profess to have the one and only truth. So if they can teach this subject in a non-biased manner they can also teach religion.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I suspect that if she was praising Ala or Buddha everyone would have thought it was great.
My point is not that people should allow preaching at public forums, but that the same standard should be applied to all.
We always hear this crap. Everybody wants the rules fairly applied it seems, but everybody is suspicious that those Islamic people are getting cut extra slack.
Yeah… likely story.[/quote]
Vroom, looks like you need some remedial training in this area. So lets break this down. What is the main reason for not allowing this girl to support her religion at a school function?
[quote]nephorm wrote:
makkun wrote:
So “christianity is cool” (which I would wish not be chastised) is ok - unfortunately the US school system does not allow for this statement, but “gays are bad” is not as it lends itself to exclusion and discrimination.
Makkun
Right, so, only upbeat free speech is allowed.
Everybody got that?[/quote]
You make a good point. Hm, gotta think about that.
I think I have to re-iterate that everyone in the first instance acted like an idiot. But again, a school is not necessarily an arena for free speech or unimpeded civil rights. If the people don’t like that, they can change that. But so far, it seems, the secular school system works - it just creates sometimes no-win-scenarios like the one which started the thread.
Hm, having thought about your comment: yes, I think in a way, I might agree with that; making a respectful statement about a belief or political view (“I’m gay and I’m proud”, “I love Jesus” or whatever) is surely more acceptable than a derogatory statement (“gays are evil”, “evangelicals are idiots”) etc. But you are right, this is a slippery slope. Sometimes I get carried away in discussion…
Makkun
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
makkun wrote:
CDM,
CDM wrote:
[…]
I have zero problem letting my kids sit through classes about other types of religion as long as one type is not promoted as being superior to the others.
With some of the religions (like christianity) having a claim on being the absolute truth (as numerous evangelical posters here have reiterated regularly), you will have a problem. Perhaps, although flawed, the secularised school system is fair after all…?
Makkun
Your logic is flawed as they currently teach political science in schools of which there are many political parties that profess to have the one and only truth. So if they can teach this subject in a non-biased manner they can also teach religion.
[/quote]
Your logic, as usual, is absent.
You might be the stupidest poster here.
Lorisco,
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
[…]
Your logic is flawed as they currently teach political science in schools of which there are many political parties that profess to have the one and only truth. So if they can teach this subject in a non-biased manner they can also teach religion.
[/quote]
Well, I guess. But it would indeed have to give the same time and dedication to all (let’s say major) religions.
Where I come from, we used to have confessional classes (catholic, lutheran) and then for everyone else - ethics. Now they are adding Islam.
What you are describing would be classes about religion, just like political science. Have no experience with that, might be interesting.
Makkun
[quote]makkun wrote:
Lorisco,
Lorisco wrote:
[…]
Your logic is flawed as they currently teach political science in schools of which there are many political parties that profess to have the one and only truth. So if they can teach this subject in a non-biased manner they can also teach religion.
Well, I guess. But it would indeed have to give the same time and dedication to all (let’s say major) religions.
Where I come from, we used to have confessional classes (catholic, lutheran) and then for everyone else - ethics. Now they are adding Islam.
What you are describing would be classes about religion, just like political science. Have no experience with that, might be interesting.
Makkun[/quote]
Yes, starting with the premise that a higher power exists and then discuss all major religions and how they differ. I believe that colleges have a similar class called World Religions, but I don’t think they have that in high schools.
The point being that most everyone believes in something that is greater than themselves. This is part of the human condition. So schools should recognize this and give kids all the basics of each and let them decide for themselves.