Another viewpoint of the war

Off Topic
41

Mage,
“I am confused. What name calling? There was a little cussing, and a rude comment about brains, but I don’t think there was any name calling. Both sides seem to have kept this discussion relatively civil.”

You are right. If you read the openning comment I made, I stated that I had posted this exact rant in another thread on this forum. In that thread they were really getting down in the mud. I saw how much more civil things were in this forum so I decided to re-post it in here.

You make a lot of really good points and I want to follow up on my drunken raving with some facts when I can sit down at the computer for more than an hour (probably tomorrow some time). BTW, impressive IQ. I figured it was up there somewhere from your writing and the points that you make.

I will follow up on a few things that won’t take much time to address just so that they don’t clutter my mind when I am replying to some of the more serious points you raised.

“From reading your post I can see that you hate rich people. Politically correct hate. The Democrats were trying to tie Bush to Enron, but once it came out that many people from the Clinton Administration moved to jobs with Enron, the attempts to connect stopped. You should be very interested in the website that started this thread, it connects to a lot of conspiracy theories, plus UFO information.”

Actually, I don’t hate rich people at all. I am a capitalist through and through. I am a business owner with lots of ambition and my hard work will pay off in the long run. So if I hate rich guys I will hate myself eventually. To qualify my comments better, what I really don’t like to see is corruption. I don’t have any illusions about the Bush administration having the corner on that either. I think the Chinese money connection to Clinton stunk of corruption as well.

The 9 DWI’s was something that was spoken about by a biographer who was actually a long time Bush family friend. He discussed on a political show how he had to edit some facts like that because the family took offense. He claimed that he had gotten 9 of them in college. I shouldn’t have put that in there since it was unsubstanciated.

“Lets see, connections to Hitler, a police state, connections to beating up a four year old son? Sorry but I think you need counseling. In the meantime please avoid any websites about the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, the chupacabra, or the Pokemon brainwashing conspiracy.”

I wasnt’ connecting him to Hitler, just comparing the concept of taking advantage of a populous when they are vulnerable. That is my own observation of it. I was a bit tipsy so my level of drama was a bit heightened. I am actually a pretty well-adjusted, stable (still opinionated) guy. Don’t worry though, if I go back and support any of my claims with links, I will stick to reputable news sources, and avoid conspiracy-theory sites. I have to take you to task on the Pokeman thing though… they really are trying to brainwash all of us. :wink:

“Sorry if this offends you, but I am not expecting you to post a good link about anything you have said, although I do expect an angry response. But please give proof before just quoting conspiracy nuts. It is easy to hate people who disagree with you and just believe anything you hear, or read.”

No need to apologize. I am not angry in the least. I think you argue your points very well and I have a lot of respect for your point of view. Your posts, as well as a select few others, were the reason I moved to this thread. I felt like I had an opportunity for real discussion. Don’t dismiss me yet. I will come back with some more info, and some questions for you. Thanks for replying!

Roy Batty
“If only you could see the things I have seen with YOUR eyes!”

42

The Mage
The name of the CIA director is George Tenet.

Re: no link between Saddam and 9-11, “Tenet told Congress in October that the CIA could also find no evidence.” (of Iraqi involvement).

http://thestar.com.my/services/printerfriendly.asp?file=/2003/1/31/world/wlink.asp

“Was Iraq involved in the 9/11 attacks?
There is no concrete evidence linking Iraq to the attacks, and although Iraq never expressed sympathy for the United States after the attacks, it has denied any involvement. In late 2001, Czech intelligence officials reported that the 9/11 ringleader, Muhammad Atta, had met with an Iraqi intelligence agent in Prague in April 2001, but many American and Czech officials have since disavowed the report and say they have no evidence that such a meeting ever occurred.”

This website also says that Iran, Syria and Pakistan are more involved in supporting terrorism than Iraq is:

"http://www.cfr.org/background/background_iraq_ties.php

Still no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq. Hmmm… curious.

43

Roy Batty:


When I read “I posted this collection of my thoughts last night in the wrong thread.” I presumed you meant that it was written specifically for this thread, and made a mistake. Now I understand you meant that you believed it belonged in this thread.


I really haven’t been drinking in years. It lost its interest when I hit 21 and could legally drink.


I know corruption is rampant, but I don’t like to see people connected to it without evidence. The evidence was rampant in the Clinton administration, and obviously so. This does not mean you have to agree with him, or even like him. From what I have seen, I believe that Bush is an upstanding person. I do not agree with all of his policies, and everything he has done, but I believe he is only doing what he thinks is right. While I don’t believe he is doing anything corrupt, I do believe that some of the advice he is following may not be the best. A president has a lot of advisors, and you cannot expect all of them to be correct, or working in his best interest.


If any true corruption comes out, then I’ll be the first to say he has got to go.


Bush has admitted that he was an alcoholic, but has overcome it. I too often see people search back and try to find something about a person that is not relevant to the current situation. If he had a problem 30 years ago, I don’t think it matters. If he was a rapist, or something of that nature, that might be different. I have seen politicians take up this issue, who have complained about bringing up something Clinton did a few years back as being ancient history. Too often there is a double standard, more often on one side, but both parties engage in double standards.


I did think it was wrong to compare Bush to Hitler, when Hussein has gassed people just for being the wrong race. Just yesterday I heard of a refugee from Iraq who spoke of him throwing a man to dogs that had been starved. This apparently was entertainment for him and his guests. I just recommend being careful making comparisons to a megalomaniac who went as far as Hitler did. This is a history that should never be repeated. And I presume you have seen the movies from World War II. Specifically of piles of dead people all of who were starved, beaten, and tortured to death being moved by bulldozer? If you want to see why I am vary reluctant to even make the slightest link between him check out this picture:


http://users.otenet.gr/~blacktom/belsen.JPG


I am glad to hear that you are a capitalist, though that might bug a few who don’t understand economics. I do hope you are successful in your business. Unlike others here, I haven’t been getting upset, and actually getting a kick out of the debate. Maybe I can try to post a shorter messages, I am short on time too.

44

Lumpy:


Nice of you to quote the article, and add a line, let me try.


“Tenet told Congress in October that the CIA could also find no evidence.” (Of Krispy Kreme selling donuts.)


The quote was only a reference to one of Atta’s meetings with Iraqi officials 5 months prior to September 11. Nothing else.


Here is a link to a copy of a letter sent by Tennet to Senator Bob Graham last October:


DCI Tenet Declassifies Further Information on the Iraq Threat


You will notice it states, “We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and al-Qa’ida going back a decade.” As well as other information about links between Iraq and Al Qaeda.


Iraq is not the only country that supports terrorism? Wow, this is the first I have heard about that. Ok, without the sarcasm, so what? Again distracting from the issue. Saying we shouldn’t get rid of one evil man because others exist is ludicrous. (And not the rapper.) Are you saying we should bomb them too? (I’ll let you take credit for the idea.)


Also, how long have we been in Iraq? Why are the weapons inspectors supposed to be given an extra 5 years to do their job, but we are expected to do it in a couple of weeks? I have read about three suspected WMD sites, though they need to be verified. And don’t forget that the precursor to mustard gas was found prior to the war. And that has only one purpose, to make mustard gas.

45

The Mage
Here’s another link that describes the lack of evidence linking Saddam to 9-11. You KNOW if there was a shred of evidence linking Saddam to 9-11, they’d be putting it in our face.
http://dupagepeace.home.att.net/cia3.html

Here’s a link ridiculing the war coverage by CNN, from the Toronto Star (the original point of this thread, lack of honest coverage by the major news outlets):
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1035780543002&call_pageid=1045739058633

The alleged chemical weapons are just pesticide:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12821361&method=full&siteid=50143

“RUMSFELD IGNORED WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
IN PURSUIT OF OIL PIPELINE”
http://ips-dc.org/crudevision/index.htm
Maybe the war is about oil after all?

46

Before I continue my discussion, I need everybody’s help. I lost my underwear. Last time this happened it was found at Denny’s, so if you eat out, keep a look out. This is important. They are printed with the word April. I am still wearing March, and I need a change. I only have 6 pairs of underwear and need these. (Boy do I hate the fall and winter.)


Lumpy: The first link is an opinion. Just because the person was in the CIA, does not mean he knows anything now. If he has not worked for the organization for 13 years, I bet he is out of the loop. And just because they are not shoving it in our faces does not mean it does not exist. If you remember the letter it has the line: “we can declassify the following from the paragraphs you requested”. This means that there is classified information. There might be a justifiable reason for information being classified. Revealing information might reveal the source, and put important people in jeopardy. If somebody is placing their life at risk to help us, we should not betray them. I know that has happened before. This is wrong, regardless of the political fallout.


CNN. I was listening to the radio catching CNN. Yeah, their crappy reporting disgusted me. My complaint was not that most of the American news sucks, but that the link you posted was worse. You still have not found an article they link to with a positive message about the US.


Chemical weapons just pesticide. Yep, they were worried they had been exposed, but were exposed to a pesticide. The third I mentioned was discounted, and the second is still being investigated. Still we just got there, and have not spent too much time looking for WMD while being shot at. Do you doubt it exists? I don’t. Not even Germany doubts it:


http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,5925048%255E1702,00.html


That article talked about mobile weapons labs owned by Saddam. How about this quote? “We have first-hand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails. The trucks and train cars are easily moved and are designed to evade detection by inspectors. In a matter of months they can produce a quantity of biological poison equal to the entire amount Iraq claimed to have produced.” It then states, “The source was an Iraqi chemical engineer who supervised one of these facilities. He was also at the site when an accident occurred in 1998. Twelve technicians died from exposure to biological agents.” The source for this quote:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-567988,00.html


And for your last link to The Institute for Pushing Socialism, uh I mean The Institute for Policy Studies, I looked at the site and found it very politically biased. While I haven’t read everything on their site, I did glance at their demands for a global economy requiring us to forgive the debts of other countries, especially if what they used the money for wasn’t successful. They also required a complete opening of our boarders because of us using immigration policy to decide who is allowed to come here. They also stated that free markets are not good for economies, and 20% of all government budgets and aid go only to social programs. Also the complete prevention of imbalanced economies. They did use the term neoliberal, which I can only believe to mean that liberals are not liberal enough.


This opinion discusses the 80’s, and policies in the 80’s. Nobody believes that us dealing with Iraq was not a mistake, but the intent was to slightly improve Iraq’s ability to fight Iran in the hopes that both would fall. It was not known how bad Saddam was. It was a mistake, and I will state again, (I can’t remember if I stated it on this thread or another,) if we make a mistake, is it not right for us to correct that mistake? I don’t understand how getting a pipeline in the 80’s means we are going to war for oil in 2003. The search for the bs link is getting desperate. In response, last night I heard someone ask, “Why would we spend $75 billion, or more, just to save $10 on a barrel of oil?” And can you explain how reducing the price of oil is good for the oil industry? When Enron fell last year, USA Today had an article about how oil companies were actually supporting enviormental regulations that slowed oil refinement to keep prices artificially elevated. (I searched but could not find the article.) People are often led to believe that regulation is bad for business, when in actuality it can be good for a business, and bad for the consumer. If you really want to hurt the oil industry, try to get state governments to consolidate how they require oil to be refined into gas. Refineries have to be shut down repeatedly to change how the oil is refined, and getting states to agree on how it should be refined would quicken production and reduce prices. How is that for a conspiracy? Oil companies in cahoots with environmentalists.

47

If you don’t think we are doing the right thing, turn on the news and watch the people in Baghdad marching, cheering, and celebrating that the US forces are there. The forces just got there, and people are all over celebrating.


I stated it before, we have people here in America protesting us invading Iraq, while the Iraqi’s are cheering us on for invading Iraq.

48

A wiser man that I once said that propaganda is to democracy what
violence is to dictatorship. I think it’s nothing to new to see the news
as cheerleader for the military. Infotainment. Objectivity in Amercian news
died a long time ago, if it ever even existed. To know anything is to
research it and exercies skepticism, even from the sources you trust. It
sickens me to hear some people parroting the talking heads on the networks,
taking their word as law.

A quick opinion. You know what I found interesting is how Peter Arnette was
admonished for givng the interview on Iraqi television. I agree that it was poor
judgement to speak against a war effort on state-run Iraqi television, but I
was more taken aback by him even being interviewed in the first palce. His job is to
report, not issue opinions. In the course of his lambasting, those in the media
repeatedly criticized him for being on television with a man in a military uniform,
discussing the war in a negative manner. Yet if you look at the American
media there are men in uniform on daily, trumpeting the conventional wisdom
while all the while those that interview them nod their heads and take their word
as law. I find this just as offensive. I find it offensive that there isn’t more criticism
of the government in the media. I think it’s Orwellian logic to fire Arnette for giving an interview
on Iraqi television and to not think twice about our media giving the US military
a platform to spew out it’s soundbites and propaganda. Like I said before,
objectivity in media is dead.

The issue of embedded ties into this, but I’ll save that for a seperate post.

49

Mage…

What a coincidence…I happen to be wearing inderwear that has “April” stitched into the tag. I’m not sure where I got them, they are black and lacy and, well, they make me feel sexy…I just wish the guys at the Gym would stop teasing me…

No, wait, now I remember, these aren’t yours. I gotta go call April.

"April is the cruellest month… "

~ T. S. Eliot

50

All I can say here is holy shit! Everyone takes this stuff so seriously. my simple conclusion is that those of us who are pro-war, are the type of people who if they saw a parent smacking their kid around in a store, would walk up to them and ask them if they wanted to be slapped around a bit to. The Doves would see that same parent smacking thier kid and turn the other way and run cause they are afraid of confrontation, they would later rationalize their descision in thier own mind to try to make themselves feel better. The fact of the matter is that Doves are AFRAID to take action, AFRAID that something bad might happen, therefore they sit and do nothing, and they sure as hell don’t want people to see the fear they live with because it is a sign of weakness, so they lie to themselves and lie to everyone else so they can feel better about themselves.

I have a challenge to all you doves, look in the mirror long and hard, would you confront that parent smacking their kid? would you risk a physical confrontation to protect an innocent child? are you noble? or are you a coward?

without fear there is only love

51

Vegita,
Although your post is highly emotional and attempts to paint a picture of a bunch of soft little neo-hippie-turned-yuppies, I can assure you that you would be seriously misjudging me with your assessment.

First, being a parent myself, if I ever saw someone beating their kid I would step in, and I wouldn’t be warning anyone with words. I would most likely just beat the shit out of the asshole. For that matter, I am pretty aggressive and territorial… People used to speed down my street at unsafe speeds which bothered me because I don’t want my young children to be hit with a car. I have had more than a few serious confrontations with people over it, usually because I threw whatever I could get my hands on at their car, and when they backed up to find out why they would almost get their asses ripped out of their cars unless they agreed that they fucked up and they better keep it slow down my street. I live in a historical neighborhood and there is still the occaissional homeless person that wanders through pan-handling. Suffice it to say that if they come near my house they usually don’t come back to my neighborhood.

On top of that, I am a businessman. I am a capitalist, and I am very aggressive and as a result, I am also successful. I serve on a legislative working group for a republican senator, and I am the chair of a republican governor’s commission. I pay MORE than my fair share of taxes so I am very conservative and usually oppose any proposed taxation that comes up in our state’s legistlation.

As if that is not enough, I am a strong supporter of the military, believe in having a strong military, my father was in the green berets in Vietnam, all 3 of my uncles are veterans, and both of my grandfathers were WWII veterans. I have a cousin who I am SO proud of I can’t tell you, was a member of the president’s honor guard for years, and he is now in the 101st Airborne division, and is now in Bhagdad as I type this. My brother in law shipped out for Iraq 3 days ago, and my business partner is a retired Army Major and a Ranger, who has served over 20 years for the military and been in 4 combat situations (Grenada, Panama, and others). He recently went back in and is now in Kuwait, part of a team that is going to go into Iraq and help them rebuild their military. I am surrounded by people who I love, respect, and/or admire who are all military people.

On top of all of this, I love my country, and would personally fight to defend what it stands for if it became necessary. I consider myself a patriot. I do believe that Saddamm (or hopefully was) a monster, and should never have been given the opportunity to rise to the level he has.

All of this being said, just because my opinion (note my use of words here–an important thing to be allowed to have in this country) that there is corruption in our own government, and just because I question the president’s motives for this war, does NOT in ANY WAY make me a “dove!” I may love this country, but that doesn’t mean that I have to close my eyes or my mind. I want our troops to come back safe and sound, and soon! I think that it is a crock of shit that I am considered “anti-military” because I am critical of America’s actions. I don’t disagree that Saddam is evil and needs to be removed. I just think that we should all quit living in denial about the fact that the self-interest of a powerful industry (oil) is what created this situation in the first place, and suggest that we exercise some more forethought with our current actions or we are going to create even more and bigger problems for ourselves in the future. It is not unpatriotic to question authority. It is a god-given RIGHT!

52

I side with Lumpy.
I am a current La. National Guard member and THAT gives me the right to question this puss Bush!

I don’t know all the details concerning Halliburton so I won’t comment. I do know his pussy ass couldn’t make through the Texas National Guard OCS (officer canidate school) so his daddy had to step in make sure he “passed”. He couldn’t fly worth a shit and was grounded PERMANENTLY.

I can’t see how a rational adult doesn’t question the fact OLD man bush was director of the Christians In Action (CIA) AND both of his sons is/were leaders of two powerful states. These are some fucked up people with major inferiortiy complexes (mostly on the father’s part).

History has proven neorotic conservatism (i.e, hypocracy) will ultimately hurt those who follow it. Look at ancient Rome… we are quickly headed that way. One more shithead pus like bush and I will leave this country. Most people of the modern world no longer want to move here. That is saying enough!!!

53


Cupcake: They looked like this. I look the same except I have a penis. (They bind a little bit in the crotch.)

54


Iraqi protesting the American invasion.

Everyone: I have definitely spent too much time on this thread, and on the last one I was debating. I have tried to stay off other threads. I personally don’t give a damn weather anyone likes Bush or not. As I have said before, I don’t agree with a lot of his policies, but I do support this war. I understand the people who are against war, but I dislike it when people start spouting lies, bs, crap, and quoting statements by extremely biased organizations who have ulterior motives. I have done internet searching to post my links to information sources to support my opinion. I have tried to avoid posting from opinions, and politically biased sources. It is interesting to read a post that says, “Look at the proof at this link-” and when I check the link, it turns out to be from I-make-up-shit.com, or DestroyAmericaAtAllCosts.org.


My question about what positive link about America does the website, which this thread was started about, has yet to even be responded to. I just took another look at it, and there is no link to the Iraqi people cheering the American troops. Even Al-Jazeera showed the Iraqi people cheering and celebrating along with our troops. Can this site be even more anti-American then Al-Jazeera?


The only link I saw about this event was about the American troops cheering while a child “lies in agony, clothes soaked in blood.” But it never mentions it is a forum post, not a news story. I readily admit the American news media is not the best, but I believe it is improving, and better then what it was. As more competition comes along the have to improve or die. And I think the imbedded reporters are a great idea. With live reports without much time to filter it, you get a more accurate picture of events. And with so many reporters there, the possibility of rogue troops going off on their own and committing atrocities drops dramatically. If they do they will be caught on tape.


Earlier I asked Lumpy whom the CIA director was that he was quoting only because I was wondering if he was quoting the current or a former CIA director. A former member of the CIA would not know anything being “out of the loop.” Also knowing that there is a letter to a congressman stating that there were links between Al Queada and Iraq would have either meant that either the post was bogus, misunderstood, or the director of the CIA was making contradictory and questionable statements. If the latter was true, then he should be replaced, but it was the misunderstanding of an article. Knowing this I found it funny that Lumpy posted an article by a former CIA member who has been “out of the loop” for 13 years. Although when he posted that Syria, Iran and Pakistan were supporting terrorism more then Iraq, I hope he remembers that if we were to attack Syria. Yet I also found funny when his link stated, " Saddam Hussein has provided bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist groups?"


I don’t mean to give a summery to this thread. War is never good, but sometimes it is better then the alternative. If it made the world a better place, it was worth it. If I believed that we could have done it without war I would have said it, but unfortunately I didn’t think we could. I am glad it is almost over.

55

Squat700x3: The constitution gives you the right to question Bush.


I don’t know about his military career, nor do I care. If he sucked at the job, then he sucked at the job. If grounding him was the right thing to do, they did the right thing. If he got any favorable treatment because of his father then that was wrong. Was that a true story, or the result of rumor made up by people not liking a person because his father is powerful? There is also the possibility of favoritism due to commanders being in fear of the father when he may have never even talked to them. Again this is just conjecture being as I don’t know where this story comes from.


As far as not liking a family because three of them were in powerful political positions, you must hate the Kennedy family. We should try to not hate people just because of who they are. People should be judged based on the content of their character. (Wait, didn’t someone say that before?)


Do you have to go back 2,000 years to find evidence of conservatism not working? I only need to go back to the 70’s to show communism not working. With the Chinese government deciding that everyone would make the same amount of money regardless of what they did, or even if they worked. On third of the population quit their jobs. There is also the failure of the Soviet Union in the 90’s, you might remember that.


Now for a definition that might annoy some people. Liberalism is the belief that the government should be there to help people, to back them up and support them. In basic language, bigger government. Conservatism is the belief that you can do it on your own, and the government just generally gets in the way. In basic language, smaller government. Bush has expanded the role of government. Increased spending and programs, so by this definition (which I have heard many repeat,) Bush is a liberal. Some people are not aware that there are conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans.


Oh yeah, INS admitted 660,477 immigrants in 1998, and 1,064,318 in 2001. I will post a link if you want.

56

The Mag
where the fuck did i use the word Liberal in my post???
I didn’t. Kennedy passed the civil rights act… what the F has this pussy done… NOTHING except try to lower the EPA standards. Who in their right F’in mind wants to lower the EPA standards except if they have an ulterior motive, i.e., to make $$ for his buddies who conspired to get his worthless ass in office.

WE are rapidly becoming a “Rome”. WE disregard the UN, the world, and do whatever the hell we want to. WRONG!!!
There will be retaliation for this stupid shit. I promise you. Clinton was a vastly superior pres., when this shithead leaves office no one will pay a f’in dime to hear him speak. He will be lucky to live to see 60.

57

Cool, post your proof. And not a link to a bogus site. I am tired of the bogus arguments without proof. Also you obviously didn’t understand my statement, defining liberalism, and conservatism. I never said you said anything about that. But then again you did use the word fuck, so you are obviously an intellectual.


We should be worried about retaliation, we should avoid being t-men and become estrogen boys and hide and cry, curl up into fetal position, and watch Oprah.


See everyone tomorrow for more fun.

58

Mage,
I am glad you pointed out the difference of liberals and conservatives. Though, hearing the term liberal republican seems a bit of an oxymoron. Hm, this opens a whole new conversation… an off topic in the off topic! Oh well, here we go.

An example to support what you say about Bush and many republicans being liberal is the ‘moral majority’ lobby, which is growing in power every year. These are the people who want to be in our friggin’ bedrooms telling us what sexual acts are legal and illegal (in their seats of power in the deep south, it is still illegal on the books to be a homosexual). That is the antithesis of what it means to be a republican to me. I am all for a small government. I don?t think that the government has any business meddling in the private sector or in personal lives.

I don’t know though… judging by the average intelligence, maybe we NEED the government to keep us on track because we are too stupid to do it for ourselves. The church figured this out a long time ago. If not for the church to carry the torch of knowledge (i.e., reading, writing, etc) the dark ages would have lasted 10,000 years instead of just 600-700 years. Much like our own government, they weren’t free from problems or occassional power-hungry leaders. But they were nearly untouchable through that period of history so they carried that baton till things improved enough that people wanted to “reform” the church or revolt against their country’s leaders and claim their own freedom. Without someone threatening people with hellfire, brimstone and final attonement there would be no fear of the afterlife and therefore no moral compass for the most part, and therefore there would be no civilization. Still true today.

There aren’t too many people who could support their own point of view - right or wrong. Mage, you just have to face the fact that there are a lot more of them than there are of YOU. If only we all had IQs over 130! But they outnumber us by millions! They are the great-unwashed masses, and whoever figures out how to reduce their message into understandable and powerful little sound bites wins the crowd. That being the case, maybe the current administration actually does have our best interests at heart.

My personal opinion on the moral majority is that they do not have our best interests at heart. I feel like they just want to control, and I have a natural knee-jerk reaction to anyone who tries to tell me how I should live my life. Granted, I just so happen to live a pretty clean life aside from a drink or two a couple nights a week. I am lucky that I am straight, white, married for over ten years to the same woman and never been divorced, father to 2 beautiful blond-haired little Arian youths who get doted on by every passer-by, successful in business and respected in my community. I have nothing to fear from them personally… Nothing the MM could do would change my standing or affect me in any way. Hell, I am the ideal that they want to promote. The only problem with all that is that I also favor diversity, and I love the fact that you can be who you want to be and create your own destiny in this country. I am what I am only because I this is what I chose for myself. God forbid if I were gay, or a racial minority or anything that deviated from what our society considers normal. If I were a Muslim in this country right now though, I would be constantly looking over my shoulder. What ever I choose or anyone chooses for their own lives, as long as they are not a harm to themselves or others, is no one else?s business… PERIOD. The MM, in my view, does not favor a live and let live approach. They are right, they know what is best for the rest of us godless pagans, and they will enforce their rule with an iron fist given the chance, and that to me is not freedom. Okay, I am off my personal opinion soapbox.

As far as my negative opinions about the current administration, perhaps I am just cynical. It is hard not to be jaded in today?s world, and to those of you who don?t think that there is anything suspicious about the president and his relationship with big oil, I am actually happy for you because you can rest with peace of mind at night. I worry too much, maybe think too much, and maintain a constant vigil to watch current events with a skeptical eye. I don?t know if any of you have ever fallen asleep at the wheel while driving… I have. I was driving through Virginia on the interstate years ago, thought I was doing just fine, till WHAM! I hit the guardrail and went sailing across the highway, nearly going over the side of the mountain. When I recovered and my heart rate returned to normal, I promised myself that I would never do that again. My analogy is basically that no matter WHO is in office, repub or dem, liberal or conservative, I will never let my mind become so complacent and accepting that I don?t see the bullshit till I smack right into it.

Anyway, just one more side note on this off topic of the off topic… am enjoying this thread immensely. For a bunch of weightlifters, we sure have a wide variety of opinions and some pretty smart guys in here.

59

Ok I may have come off as a little combative last post, but I do get a little excited sometimes (DOWN BOY!) anyways. I am happy being a good person, If I lived in Iraq while saddam was in power, I wouldn’t cry and pout and waste my life away, I would do what I needed to do to get by but I would still be happy, no matter what. And If I was american and my president wanted to go to war with a savage dictator and some thought it was just and some thought it was for oil I would still be happy that I was doing a good job being ME. Watch tv and have an opinion on stuff… great! go to a peace march… great! go do some community service… great! again my point is stay strong and believe in who you are and all this crap that goes on will seem more like a little game and you can sit on the sidelines and watch people play it. This game that happens literally kills people every day because so many people get so wrapped up in it. All the suicide bombers get so whipped up with propoganda and shit it really doesnt matter what side they are on the fact is both sides do stupid things. Does anyone understand what i’m tryin to say here? i’ll admit I can’t always spit it out.

debate is good if you have fun with it and keep an eye on the BIG picture, but some of these threads have people getting downright nasty to eachother and that my friends is not healthy. No matter what the topic of the debate, the person(or people) you are debating with are more important that the topic itself.

ok I need a nap now

Late

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That is a great point and well put.