Anarchist Roll Call

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Anarchists of the world, unite!!

Just so long as we don’t form a club and elect officers . . . .I’ll be pissed if this starts getting organized - LMAO!!!

Where is it written that anarchists are unorganized? Anarchists are unruled. There is a difference. We can organize without a power structure in place.

I know you are pulling my leg again, but how can you organize with out structure?

The key word is “power”. Anarchy only exists outside a coercive authority.

Anarchist society would be no more structured than where you work. Your boss is not your “leader” but he is understood to be above you in a chain of “command”. You are free to leave whenever you want. That is how voluntary society works. You are beholden to none but your own best interests.

I know there is no such thing as synonymous, but structure and organized are 2 words pretty closely related you can not have structure and organization with out rules. You may have a group of people that honor the golden rule, which would do away with all others, but you would have to have minimal rules at least.

[/quote]

How many times do I have to say it: coercive authority.

Structure and organization will always exist. Nature organizes itself. The difference is no one has any authority over the individual.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
Ohh I see why this forum proves addictive. You start to want to argue.

Irish, okay, maybe it was a weak analogy. Look, I’m not cheerleading for anarchy. I’m cheerleading for some tentative experimentation in that direction. You know, on the order of cutting the corn subsidy (and even that is a huge political risk.) And I’m all for entertaining bullshit utopian schemes if they inspire people to make things incrementally better, or even if they’re merely harmless. You can’t stop people from getting utopian, especially in this country. (Margaret Fuller, anyone?)

“Will anarchy work?” is a speculative question, and the only serious answer is that we don’t know. There’s some tentative evidence that Somalia was less violence after their government collapsed, but I’m not convinced. The interesting questions, I think, are whether we can do without certain traditional functions of government. Can private roads work? Can DIY currencies work? What would happen if there were no zoning? What would happen if there were no NSF to fund research? (Oh, it chills my heart!) Those are questions we can try to answer, and often the evidence shows that we don’t really need government to do X.

Don’t get me wrong, Alisa. I am very much a libertarian. But I know the nature of Man. And it is evil.[/quote]

How does government work if man is evil?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pushharder wrote:

OK, so since “hopefully for the last time anarchy isn’t for everyone” and “incapable, irresponsible, indecent people probably need government, and plenty of it,” what are you going to do with these folks?

What am I going to do with them? I’m not going to do a thing with them, except hopefully not live by them.

And when one of your folks becomes irresponsible and/or indecent, what do you do with him? Do you have a non-existent government remove him, put him on a Con Air flight and fly him to the Land of the Governed? How does this work?

Depends on who he is, or what he’s done. If he’s just irresponsible, then I suppose we’d laugh at him. If he’s indecent, then it would depend on the degree of indecency. If he’s walking around with his dingaling hanging out of his pants, then I suppose we’d laugh at him and tell him to zip up his goddamn pants.

If he’s touching little girls on their private parts, then I suppose we’d horse-whip him and run him out of town.

And if he’s raping women and killing people, then I suppose I or someone else would shoot the sumbitch.

Why? What would you do?

What would you do with property disputes or contract disputes or entities such as steel mills that pollute water or air? And letâ??s say your community will put up because they get the benefit, with it but mine wonâ??t, will we have war?

[/quote]

If you check out the links I posted on the previous page.

We could have ‘Dispute Resolution Organisations’ (DROs) which would act essentially as a form of privately owned and run insurance firms.

Each individual, household, business, organisation would be registered with one of these DROs whose purpose it would be to provide defense, contract enforcement, compensation and so on.
Each party would enter into contracts and agreements voluntarily with each person involved fully aware of the terms of the contract.

If any party were to violate the terms of the contract then the DRO would take appropriate action based upon the pre-agreed terms of the contract, be it forcefully extracting compensation for the other parties involved or submitting the offending party’s name to a fully open and accessable (perhaps via the internet), non-intrusive database for other DRO’s and individuals to view.

To eliminate the need for the use of force upon the breaking or violation of such a contract, the parties involved could place an agreed-upon amount of funds and/or assets into a third-party holding account which would be regulated either by the DRO or by some bank associated with the DRO.

And there would be far less incentive for corruption because of the transparency of the whole ‘system’. If either party were to act in a corrupt fashion - perhaps the third-party holders siphoning off some of the funds - this would of course be discovered and that organisation would then be blacklisted for all to see. So it would be upto the individuals and parties whether or not they choose to do business with, I suppose you could call them ‘blacklistees’.

If the steel mill you mentioned is polluting the local environment.
Well, the company that runs the steel mill would most likely have needed to receive some form of financing originally and without legitimate DRO-backing, it would be highly unlikely that any financeer would wish to partake in such high-risk business. Especially considering their own DRO would probably have terms in their contract about participation in business with non-DRO-backed parties and individuals.

Of course there are an endless number of situations you could apply to this and also there will be cries of ‘But the DROs will just become quasi-government entities that will rule over the masses with their private armies!’ - I’m really REALLY not doing any of these ideas justice so I suggest you check out the early podcasts at http://www.freedomainradio.com because I’m just regurgitating Stefan Molyneux’s ideas primarily.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pushharder wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
Ohh I see why this forum proves addictive. You start to want to argue.

Irish, okay, maybe it was a weak analogy. Look, I’m not cheerleading for anarchy. I’m cheerleading for some tentative experimentation in that direction. You know, on the order of cutting the corn subsidy (and even that is a huge political risk.) And I’m all for entertaining bullshit utopian schemes if they inspire people to make things incrementally better, or even if they’re merely harmless. You can’t stop people from getting utopian, especially in this country. (Margaret Fuller, anyone?)

“Will anarchy work?” is a speculative question, and the only serious answer is that we don’t know. There’s some tentative evidence that Somalia was less violence after their government collapsed, but I’m not convinced. The interesting questions, I think, are whether we can do without certain traditional functions of government. Can private roads work? Can DIY currencies work? What would happen if there were no zoning? What would happen if there were no NSF to fund research? (Oh, it chills my heart!) Those are questions we can try to answer, and often the evidence shows that we don’t really need government to do X.

Don’t get me wrong, Alisa. I am very much a libertarian. But I know the nature of Man. And it is evil.

How does government work if man is evil?[/quote]

I think we can all probably agree that the majority of people are non-violent by nature.
Most of us have never killed, robbed or raped a person.

But there will always be a small subset of people who tend towards violence and corruption.
So think about it, if this small group of people always exists and there is a relatively small centralised monopoly of coercion that allows the participants to exercise violence over those not a part of it - it seems highly logical that those violent and corrupt individuals would tend to gravitate towards such a group - The government; the state.

[quote]El Sonido wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pushharder wrote:
AlisaV wrote:
Ohh I see why this forum proves addictive. You start to want to argue.

Irish, okay, maybe it was a weak analogy. Look, I’m not cheerleading for anarchy. I’m cheerleading for some tentative experimentation in that direction. You know, on the order of cutting the corn subsidy (and even that is a huge political risk.) And I’m all for entertaining bullshit utopian schemes if they inspire people to make things incrementally better, or even if they’re merely harmless. You can’t stop people from getting utopian, especially in this country. (Margaret Fuller, anyone?)

“Will anarchy work?” is a speculative question, and the only serious answer is that we don’t know. There’s some tentative evidence that Somalia was less violence after their government collapsed, but I’m not convinced. The interesting questions, I think, are whether we can do without certain traditional functions of government. Can private roads work? Can DIY currencies work? What would happen if there were no zoning? What would happen if there were no NSF to fund research? (Oh, it chills my heart!) Those are questions we can try to answer, and often the evidence shows that we don’t really need government to do X.

Don’t get me wrong, Alisa. I am very much a libertarian. But I know the nature of Man. And it is evil.

How does government work if man is evil?

I think we can all probably agree that the majority of people are non-violent by nature.
Most of us have never killed, robbed or raped a person.

But there will always be a small subset of people who tend towards violence and corruption.
So think about it, if this small group of people always exists and there is a relatively small centralised monopoly of coercion that allows the participants to exercise violence over those not a part of it - it seems highly logical that those violent and corrupt individuals would tend to gravitate towards such a group - The government; the state.[/quote]

Yep. Which contradicts Push’s point that government somehow corrects the problems created by evildoers – when in fact the majority of evil is committed by government.

[quote]El Sonido wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pushharder wrote:

OK, so since “hopefully for the last time anarchy isn’t for everyone” and “incapable, irresponsible, indecent people probably need government, and plenty of it,” what are you going to do with these folks?

What am I going to do with them? I’m not going to do a thing with them, except hopefully not live by them.

And when one of your folks becomes irresponsible and/or indecent, what do you do with him? Do you have a non-existent government remove him, put him on a Con Air flight and fly him to the Land of the Governed? How does this work?

Depends on who he is, or what he’s done. If he’s just irresponsible, then I suppose we’d laugh at him. If he’s indecent, then it would depend on the degree of indecency. If he’s walking around with his dingaling hanging out of his pants, then I suppose we’d laugh at him and tell him to zip up his goddamn pants.

If he’s touching little girls on their private parts, then I suppose we’d horse-whip him and run him out of town.

And if he’s raping women and killing people, then I suppose I or someone else would shoot the sumbitch.

Why? What would you do?

What would you do with property disputes or contract disputes or entities such as steel mills that pollute water or air? And let�¢??s say your community will put up because they get the benefit, with it but mine won�¢??t, will we have war?

If you check out the links I posted on the previous page.

We could have ‘Dispute Resolution Organisations’ (DROs) which would act essentially as a form of privately owned and run insurance firms.

Each individual, household, business, organisation would be registered with one of these DROs whose purpose it would be to provide defense, contract enforcement, compensation and so on.
Each party would enter into contracts and agreements voluntarily with each person involved fully aware of the terms of the contract.

If any party were to violate the terms of the contract then the DRO would take appropriate action based upon the pre-agreed terms of the contract, be it forcefully extracting compensation for the other parties involved or submitting the offending party’s name to a fully open and accessable (perhaps via the internet), non-intrusive database for other DRO’s and individuals to view.

To eliminate the need for the use of force upon the breaking or violation of such a contract, the parties involved could place an agreed-upon amount of funds and/or assets into a third-party holding account which would be regulated either by the DRO or by some bank associated with the DRO.

And there would be far less incentive for corruption because of the transparency of the whole ‘system’. If either party were to act in a corrupt fashion - perhaps the third-party holders siphoning off some of the funds - this would of course be discovered and that organisation would then be blacklisted for all to see. So it would be upto the individuals and parties whether or not they choose to do business with, I suppose you could call them ‘blacklistees’.

If the steel mill you mentioned is polluting the local environment.
Well, the company that runs the steel mill would most likely have needed to receive some form of financing originally and without legitimate DRO-backing, it would be highly unlikely that any financeer would wish to partake in such high-risk business. Especially considering their own DRO would probably have terms in their contract about participation in business with non-DRO-backed parties and individuals.

Of course there are an endless number of situations you could apply to this and also there will be cries of ‘But the DROs will just become quasi-government entities that will rule over the masses with their private armies!’ - I’m really REALLY not doing any of these ideas justice so I suggest you check out the early podcasts at http://www.freedomainradio.com because I’m just regurgitating Stefan Molyneux’s ideas primarily.[/quote]

It seems the DRO would kind of be the law enforcement of the settlement. I personally think that a private for profit organization that enforces agreements and contracts would become corrupt by profit.
As a stretch I could see anarchy working in a very limited populated area, but the logistics of it all are half baked.
The dogma that surrounds this type of thread is astonishing, like â??Nature organizes it selfâ?? that sounds nice enough, but how it would work is the person that is the most devious, intelligent, strong would eventually own everything. There is no way that (might) would not prevail

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
It seems the DRO would kind of be the law enforcement of the settlement. I personally think that a private for profit organization that enforces agreements and contracts would become corrupt by profit.
As a stretch I could see anarchy working in a very limited populated area, but the logistics of it all are half baked.
The dogma that surrounds this type of thread is astonishing, like â??Nature organizes it selfâ?? that sounds nice enough, but how it would work is the person that is the most devious, intelligent, strong would eventually own everything. There is no way that (might) would not prevail
[/quote]

How does an evil person gain legitimacy in a free society with no notion of authority? Does this evil person not rely on cooperation from society to remain in power?

And you have it precisely backward. Profits made in a free society cannot corrupt people because the markets punish corruption. One cannot become wealthy in free society by coercion and violence. In fact it takes an abusive system to protect such individuals from punishment.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
It seems the DRO would kind of be the law enforcement of the settlement. I personally think that a private for profit organization that enforces agreements and contracts would become corrupt by profit.
As a stretch I could see anarchy working in a very limited populated area, but the logistics of it all are half baked.
The dogma that surrounds this type of thread is astonishing, like �¢??Nature organizes it self�¢?? that sounds nice enough, but how it would work is the person that is the most devious, intelligent, strong would eventually own everything. There is no way that (might) would not prevail

How does an evil person gain legitimacy in a free society with no notion of authority? Does this evil person not rely on cooperation from society to remain in power?

And you have it precisely backward. Profits made in a free society cannot corrupt people because the markets punish corruption. One cannot become wealthy in free society by coercion and violence. In fact it takes an abusive system to protect such individuals from punishment.[/quote]

An evil person could gain legitimacy though trickery, deceit, brute force or any combination of those
If some one amasses an army and is superior to anything you could amass, then you would have no option to admit his superiority.
â??One cannot become wealthy in free society by coercion and violence.â?? How do you figure your society would be void coercion and violence? Are you talking lobotomizing everybody?

I cannot see the incentive for ‘amassing an army’ in a stateless society.
There would be no central authority to gain control of, no government buildings or systems to take over.

It would literally need to be an armed force going door to door kidnapping and enslaving people, or something to that effect.

There would be more incentive to ‘amass’ an ‘army’ of competent, skilled and knowledgeble individuals to compete in the free market as this would have a higher rate of success.

In the DRO model, each person would be protected by their own DRO’s private security force which would also consist of members of the population itself.

What about if the habitants of each community/country/whatever each contributed (voluntarily) equally towards the cost of gulp a NUKE. That would act as the great equaliser and really nuclear arsenals are what prevent the world as it stands today from slipping into all out global warfare.

This is more about removing the incentives for crime and corruption.

Without extortionate state regulations, tarrifs, taxation etc, it would usually be more profitable to embark upon a legal, uncorrupt venture.

If an individual is found to be corrupt then no one will do business with them, the will be unable to get DRO-backing and they will essentially be ostracized from society. Without DRO-backing they will be unable to buy food (DRO-backed grocers would have terms against dealing with non-DRO-backed individuals). They would have no water supply, they wouldn’t be able to put gas in their car and because all land and roads will be privately owned they would be very, if not wholly restricted to where they could go so they would inevitably be forced to live in the wilderness.

There may be options for the offender to pay compensation and enter rehabilitation of some kind, rather than just be removed from society instantly.

There are of course limitless invididual scenarios that we could examine in this light and how the DRO model would deal with them, I haven’t come across a single situation that isn’t effectively and gracefully resolved under this model.

The same goes for things like drugs or prostitution or gambling - as soon as you make a good or service illegal you create a black market and because of the risk factor, the profitability shoots up making the incentives higher.

[quote]El Sonido wrote:
I cannot see the incentive for ‘amassing an army’ in a stateless society.
There would be no central authority to gain control of, no government buildings or systems to take over.

It would literally need to be an armed force going door to door kidnapping and enslaving people, or something to that effect.

There would be more incentive to ‘amass’ an ‘army’ of competent, skilled and knowledgeble individuals to compete in the free market as this would have a higher rate of success.

In the DRO model, each person would be protected by their own DRO’s private security force which would also consist of members of the population itself.

What about if the habitants of each community/country/whatever each contributed (voluntarily) equally towards the cost of gulp a NUKE. That would act as the great equaliser and really nuclear arsenals are what prevent the world as it stands today from slipping into all out global warfare.[/quote]

The reason to amass an army would be to take what is not yours or to control things that are not yours rightfully to control, The DRO may work to some degree, especially if you apply your Insurance premium to pay for all the expenses of hiring the most capable of the community and supplying the DRO with weaponry. But now the DRO is resembling a Police Dept and a Court system, all paid by an Insurance or tax.

[quote]El Sonido wrote:
I cannot see the incentive for ‘amassing an army’ in a stateless society.
There would be no central authority to gain control of, no government buildings or systems to take over.

It would literally need to be an armed force going door to door kidnapping and enslaving people, or something to that effect.

There would be more incentive to ‘amass’ an ‘army’ of competent, skilled and knowledgeble individuals to compete in the free market as this would have a higher rate of success.

In the DRO model, each person would be protected by their own DRO’s private security force which would also consist of members of the population itself.

What about if the habitants of each community/country/whatever each contributed (voluntarily) equally towards the cost of gulp a NUKE. That would act as the great equaliser and really nuclear arsenals are what prevent the world as it stands today from slipping into all out global warfare.[/quote]

When Sweden wanted to occupy Poland which had no central authority, that is what they did.

They wandered here and there, trying to find someone to surrender, but no one legally could.

Bummer.

Just a quick statistic from some old notes of mine(and I’m sorry I don’t have a source for this, flame away):

In the early 1950’s in London, 3 hits of heroin cos 25p (approximately 60-70 cents).
There were approximately 100-200 addicts in London at this time.
This is at a time when heroin was legal and could be purchased from pharmacies.

Around 1985-1990 1 single hit of heroin cost 50 POUNDS.
There were approximately 20,000 heroin addicts.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
Honestly, I don’t think anyone’s concern is for the neighbor coming over and taking your wife and daughter; it’s the local warlord with more guys and bigger guns with you and your friends. The concern is the devolution of society we see in Somalia.

mike

In places where rival tribes vie for territory and increasingly scarce resources, as was the case in Somalia, this is indeed a danger.

Which is why devolution of society is more likely in a place like California or New York than in Idaho or Montana. Or Minnesota, I might add (of course, there are quite a lot of Somali immigrants in Minnesota, which has always struck me as odd. Of all the places for an African from a hot, arid country to emigrate to, MInnesota seems a rather unlikely choice.) [/quote]

We had a guy from Nigeria in our squad, he couldnt speak very good English, but he was from St.Paul. We called him Blood Diamond.

[quote]El Sonido wrote:
Just a quick statistic from some old notes of mine(and I’m sorry I don’t have a source for this, flame away):

In the early 1950’s in London, 3 hits of heroin cos 25p (approximately 60-70 cents).
There were approximately 100-200 addicts in London at this time.
This is at a time when heroin was legal and could be purchased from pharmacies.

Around 1985-1990 1 single hit of heroin cost 50 POUNDS.
There were approximately 20,000 heroin addicts.[/quote]

While I admire your principles, and agree with most of it, humanity will always create governments to (1) protect themselves and (2) rob their betters. Then, criminals will use these ‘needs’ to establish totalitarianism.

Authoritarianism/totalitarianism is the natural state of mankind. Most are unwilling or unable to live freely and in voluntary association with their neighbors. This is why some philosophers (Hegel esp comes to mind) proposed that perfect freedom is attained when you spiritually subsume your will with the Will of the State. When you submerge your individuality and merge into the State, then you become perfectly free and immortal. The individual may die but the State goes on.

" The keyword here is blackwhite. Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink. Doublethink is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

â?? Part II, chapter IX - chapter I of Goldstein’s book

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
How do you figure your society would be void coercion and violence? Are you talking lobotomizing everybody?
[/quote]

It would not necessarily be void of violence. I don’t expect that angry spouses will quit killing each other either.

There would be significantly less violence just because the source of most of it would not exist – namely the power structure that people fight over.

Long term, I only see the possibility of a stateless society appearing through a process of education. This is something that can only happen when large populations of people collectively decide to ignore coercive authority and trust in their own freedom. But there are ways a stateless society can be brought about unintentionally…

In the meantime the ideas need to be communicated and people need to start the process of taking responsibility for their own lives.

Start by never allowing yourself to be a victim caught unawares. Buy weapons and learn how to use them.

The State is coming to an end in America because it cannot financially sustain itself. Like it or not we will become anarchists…or slaves.

When the moment arrives, it is your choice to make. Don’t be a victim. Own your life.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

The State is coming to an end in America because it cannot financially sustain itself…

Would you care to make a prediction as to when?[/quote]

5-10 years, max.

hehe well, it won’t have come to an ‘end’ but it will be vastly different.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

The State is coming to an end in America because it cannot financially sustain itself…

Would you care to make a prediction as to when?[/quote]

I cannot predict a date or even what decade. I’d say sooner rather than later. The first most predictable indication will be a complete and total collapse of the dollar; money is the key to hegemony. Once the government loses control on that they cannot remain in tact. All states have fallen thusly.

Since I have no hope that government can rewrite economic law I can only come to one conclusion. no government can keep its power when it destroys the currency; it is this that has destroyed all empires.

Regrettably, I also know people will see the “anarchy” that results from the resulting power vacuum and conclude that “anarchy is bad,” with never having actually experienced it, which is why I prefer the process be a more peaceful one.

The question remains how many people will choose freedom over being ruled? That is why I see the need to educate now before it gets worse.