Anarchist Roll Call

[quote]Oleena wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
And what of monopolies?

And now for the easy part:

There are no monopolies except for state created ones.

What of the natural monopolies such as microsoft?

[/quote]

Never heard of Mac or Linux?

And even still, mircosoft does not use violence or coercion to make you buy their products. They do it by the sheer ability to control their product and give the typical user what they want – something easy to use. They have no coercive “power” over the consumer and in that sense if they were ever to actually become a monopoly there is no problem here. There is nothing inherently destructive about that.

I think it is interesting you bring up monopolies without recognizing the two true monopolies that actually exist and are absolutely horrific – the monopoly on the creation of money and coercive authority – by the government.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
And what of monopolies?

And now for the easy part:

There are no monopolies except for state created ones.

What of the natural monopolies such as microsoft?

Never heard of Mac or Linux?

And even still, mircosoft does not use violence or coercion to make you buy their products. They do it by the sheer ability to control their product and give the typical user what they want – something easy to use. They have no coercive “power” over the consumer and in that sense if they were ever to actually become a monopoly there is no problem here. There is nothing inherently destructive about that.[/quote] Microsoft is a good example of the questioned I posed below. They have been sued multiple times for stealing competitor’s programing codes and freely handing them out. If there was no governmental intervention, there probably wouldn’t be a mac for this reason. No one would try to start their own software company in the face of microsoft stealing their idea and making it freely available. I don’t have anything against microsoft for trying to do this, but it’s an example that a company will use any means necessary to weed out the competition, to the point of smothering the will to make new inventions on one’s own. Oh yes, and there might not even be a miscrosoft because linux would be handing out their new ideas, in addition to their old ones, for free.

[quote]I think it is interesting you bring up monopolies without recognizing the two true monopolies that actually exist and are absolutely horrific – the monopoly on the creation of money and coercive authority – by the government.[/quote] I didn’t mention the creation of money because I’d be greatly inconvenienced without it. Knowing how much of any one good to produce for markets that you can’t see would be impossible without money as definied by economics. If you are referring to the monopoly the government has on printing money, well then I can’t disagree with you :slight_smile:

Here’s a technical question- if there is no government to protect property rights, what happens to the motivation to invent new ideas? You could come up with a new product, and start your own business, but an older, more efficient business would quickly snatch up your idea, mass produce it, and you’d be left with nothing to show for years of work. You could sell your idea to the larger corporation, but they would have a lot of power over you to buy your product at a lower price than you would have gotten on your own. Therefore, the incentive to invent would be weakened.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Mr. Jefferson never finds out…

Inconceivable. How does someone not know they were robbed unless they were too wealthy to know what they had – and even still it would be no different than if it had happened right now and no one found out.

If no one knows then nothing can be done no matter what. Knowledge of a fact is a precondition to being able to do anything about it, however…

If he did know about it he could hire a detective find some evidence and then take it to one of the many courts of law that would probably work off of competing insurances…

I really don’t know for sure nor can I speculate about it.[/quote]

How would the court of law/insurance companies enforce their decision?

BTW, can you think of a better system for regulating money other than the government regulating it? I’m also not a fan of this monopoly, but I can’t think of a realistic, better way of insuring that the medium of exchange has value because multiple people are not producing it on their own.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
And what of monopolies?

And now for the easy part:

There are no monopolies except for state created ones.

What of the natural monopolies such as microsoft?

Never heard of Mac or Linux?

And even still, mircosoft does not use violence or coercion to make you buy their products. They do it by the sheer ability to control their product and give the typical user what they want – something easy to use. They have no coercive “power” over the consumer and in that sense if they were ever to actually become a monopoly there is no problem here. There is nothing inherently destructive about that. Microsoft is a good example of the questioned I posed below. They have been sued multiple times for stealing competitor’s programing codes and freely handing them out. If there was no governmental intervention, there probably wouldn’t be a mac for this reason. No one would try to start their own software company in the face of microsoft stealing their idea and making it freely available. I don’t have anything against microsoft for trying to do this, but it’s an example that a company will use any means necessary to weed out the competition, to the point of smothering the will to make new inventions on one’s own. Oh yes, and there might not even be a miscrosoft because linux would be handing out their new ideas, in addition to their old ones, for free.

I think it is interesting you bring up monopolies without recognizing the two true monopolies that actually exist and are absolutely horrific – the monopoly on the creation of money and coercive authority – by the government. I didn’t mention the creation of money because I’d be greatly inconvenienced without it. Knowing how much of any one good to produce for markets that you can’t see would be impossible without money as definied by economics. If you are referring to the monopoly the government has on printing money, well then I can’t disagree with you :slight_smile:

Here’s a technical question- if there is no government to protect property rights, what happens to the motivation to invent new ideas? You could come up with a new product, and start your own business, but an older, more efficient business would quickly snatch up your idea, mass produce it, and you’d be left with nothing to show for years of work. You could sell your idea to the larger corporation, but they would have a lot of power over you to buy your product at a lower price than you would have gotten on your own. Therefore, the incentive to invent would be weakened.

[/quote]

But you’re changing the argument here. And really, no one is forcibly stopped from competing with microsoft. That is the only relevant thing we need understand here.

I agree unethical behavior should be punished, though I think there are certain practices that companies get punished for that is not precisely unethical. The anti-trust suits are examples of this. There is no reason why Microsoft shouldn’t be able to contract with OEMs to sell their products. That was the big suit they lost which hurts us as consumers. Now we cannot buy the MS operating system with the machine but rather must purchase it separately.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
BTW, can you think of a better system for regulating money other than the government regulating it? I’m also not a fan of this monopoly, but I can’t think of a realistic, better way of insuring that the medium of exchange has value because multiple people are not producing it on their own.[/quote]

Yes. Private coinage.

Ensuring the value of money is the business of the mint in question not of any government regulator. Regulation does not give money its value. It has value because people want it. So, if a private coiner does something to ruin it – for example by printing too much of it, it loses value and people will seek an other source of money. Problem solved.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
BTW, can you think of a better system for regulating money other than the government regulating it? I’m also not a fan of this monopoly, but I can’t think of a realistic, better way of insuring that the medium of exchange has value because multiple people are not producing it on their own.

Yes. Private coinage.

Ensuring the value of money is the business of the mint in question not of any government regulator. Regulation does not give money its value. It has value because people want it. So, if a private coiner does something to ruin it – for example by printing too much of it, it loses value and people will seek an other source of money. Problem solved.[/quote]

This would happen a lot though. Let’s say we decided to use gold. Without regulation people can easily make their own coins with a little less gold and a little alloy. This could happen with any medium you can think of. Also, when the medium looses value, the same thing will happen with the next medium you find, and it could happen quickly or slowly. In the process of it happening, certain markets will find themselves with more demand, not because there actually is more demand for them, but because people who live nearby have figured out ways of reproducing the money on their own, and therefore are buying a lot more product than they can “actually” afford. In the time between figuring out what’s going on and coming up with a new mint, the market equillibrium will be thrown.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
[/quote] Agreed, but how would we enforce the punishment of unethical behavior in an anarchist system? That’s been my basic question all along.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
This would happen a lot though. Let’s say we decided to use gold. Without regulation people can easily make their own coins with a little less gold and a little alloy. This could happen with any medium you can think of. Also, when the medium looses value, the same thing will happen with the next medium you find, and it could happen quickly or slowly. In the process of it happening, certain markets will find themselves with more demand, not because there actually is more demand for them, but because people who live nearby have figured out ways of reproducing the money on their own, and therefore are buying a lot more product than they can “actually” afford. In the time between figuring out what’s going on and coming up with a new mint, the market equillibrium will be thrown.

[/quote]
That is why competition is important. There will be fear that an other competitor will “steal” away ones business if one behaves poorly and mismanages their product – or committing fraud as in the example you give. The way it is now our money is being devalued but we have no other choice – and this is really bad.

Also, I think you need to reevaluate your understanding of demand. Demand is just people showing preference for one choice over an other. Obviously if I am uncertain about product X and I move to product Y I have a new demand for Y. This makes no reference to why I am doing it or that I might really prefer X but because of some reason I chose Y instead. That doesn’t matter at all for the purposes of economic analysis. All we really care about is what people actually do not what they would rather have done.

Leave that for the psychologists to reckon with.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
This would happen a lot though. Let’s say we decided to use gold. Without regulation people can easily make their own coins with a little less gold and a little alloy. This could happen with any medium you can think of. Also, when the medium looses value, the same thing will happen with the next medium you find, and it could happen quickly or slowly. In the process of it happening, certain markets will find themselves with more demand, not because there actually is more demand for them, but because people who live nearby have figured out ways of reproducing the money on their own, and therefore are buying a lot more product than they can “actually” afford. In the time between figuring out what’s going on and coming up with a new mint, the market equillibrium will be thrown.

That is why competition is important. There will be fear that an other competitor will “steal” away ones business if one behaves poorly and mismanages their product – or committing fraud as in the example you give. The way it is now our money is being devalued but we have no other choice – and this is really bad.

Also, I think you need to reevaluate your understanding of demand. Demand is just people showing preference for one choice over an other. Obviously if I am uncertain about product X and I move to product Y I have a new demand for Y. This makes no reference to why I am doing it or that I might really prefer X but because of some reason I chose Y instead. That doesn’t matter at all for the purposes of economic analysis. All we really care about is what people actually do not what they would rather have done.

Leave that for the psychologists to reckon with.[/quote]

Do you know what I meant by market equillibrium? How would you define market equillibrium? Let’s start there, because I have a suspicion that you misinterpretted all of what I just said.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Do you know what I meant by market equillibrium? How would you define market equillibrium? Let’s start there, because I have a suspicion that you misinterpretted all of what I just said.
[/quote]

No. I do not. Market equilibrium is just an imaginary construction that economists use to analyze activities from a starting point. There really is no such thing. It is a tool only.

Economists like to say that the market tends toward equilibrium but never really achieves it.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
IrishSteel wrote:
Oleena wrote:
This only proves that I must have the best endurance of all, taking on at least two men in several different threads at one time, over time.

nope just that some of us have a low tolerance for how many juvenile comments we choose to deal with at one time . . . :slight_smile:

This from the guy that first states that animals have souls, then claims to know with certainty what happens to those souls after they die, and then refuses to answer further questions about the matter because he doesn’t want to look silly.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? Haven’t been keeping up with me eh?

[quote]Oleena wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Oleena wrote:

And believe it or not, all joking and insults and such aside, you are making yourself look really dumb. Not with the the jabs and such - that can be fun and games - but with the ridiculous assertion that he hasn’t answered your questions. I know you’re not really interested in anything he has to say. You’re continuing to bait him just like you did with the quiz. And the baiting is no longer fun or interesting and it doesn’t stir up more valid debate; it’s just tedious yapping now. You know, the kind of tedious yapping that back in the Middle Ages would’ve earned a woman a good whippin’?

It’s always a person’s choice whether or not to continue participating in discussion.

The guy has faithfully fetched every stick you’ve thrown. Thank him, why don’t you? Instead of accusing him of precisely the opposite of what he’s done. When you keep unduly yapping at him you really, really lose your credibility. Then you look like a snide little bitch. Was that your ultimate goal when you forayed into PWI? To make yourself out to be a snide little bitch? I think not. I can’t imagine that was really your intention so quit playing the part. I think you had honest intentions so just take this as corrective little slap.

This is a pointless argument because if you really believed that I had honest intentions you would also believe that I don’t feel he’s addressed the issues presented head on. However, because you share his vantage point you struggle with how his answers could possibly not have hit the questions he tried to answer on the head.

The fact that you two can’t see how several people on that thread still feel that the question regarding the reconcilliation of the bible’s description of god with it’s description of god’s omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent nature has not been answered in a logic fashion shows either a lack of understanding of the question or logic itself.
[/quote]

tak eit back to the thread where it belongs - this is anarchy

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Do you know what I meant by market equillibrium? How would you define market equillibrium? Let’s start there, because I have a suspicion that you misinterpretted all of what I just said.

No. I do not. Market equilibrium is just an imaginary construction that economists use to analyze activities from a starting point. There really is no such thing. It is a tool only.

Economists like to say that the market tends toward equilibrium but never really achieves it.[/quote]

I didn’t mean that it actually existed, I was just wondering if you were familiar with the concept.

To summarize why I brought it up- while PERFECT market equillibrium is non existant, there wouldn’t point to even using medium of exchange if the price of an item wasn’t indicative of how many people were trying to get ahold of the item compared to how much of the item was currently available. The less of the item that’s avaible compared to the amount of people who are trying to get ahold of it- the higher the price will be. Eventually, though, more sellers will come into the market and start capitalizing on the sales, so more will be available, and the price will drop.

Now, imagine that somewhere people start “cheating” and making fake copies of the medium of exchange. No one catches them at this right away, and even if they did, there would be no way of enforcing punishment. They start spending their fake money to buy more luxury goods. This happens to the point where many more luxury goods are produced than the actual value in the market can consume.

More people learn how to reproduce the money, and it starts loosing value quickly, but not before it is used to buy goods in a much different fashion than it would if it was limited and the people using it actually had to budget. Sellers are switching markets and changing the amount of goods they produce all over the place. Infact, they start over-producing because people are overbuying with fake money, but no one can see the whole picture.

The medium of exchange looses value, and to make a long story short the market suffers for a while because it’s produced too many goods for the actual amount of value (and by that I mean work contributed to) in the market to buy.

If this process happens too many times the market will become very inefficient at meeting the actual needs of the population because it isn’t being told the right thing.

[quote]Oleena wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Oleena wrote:
Do you know what I meant by market equillibrium? How would you define market equillibrium? Let’s start there, because I have a suspicion that you misinterpretted all of what I just said.

No. I do not. Market equilibrium is just an imaginary construction that economists use to analyze activities from a starting point. There really is no such thing. It is a tool only.

Economists like to say that the market tends toward equilibrium but never really achieves it.

I didn’t mean that it actually existed, I was just wondering if you were familiar with the concept.

To summarize why I brought it up- while PERFECT market equillibrium is non existant, there wouldn’t point to even using medium of exchange if the price of an item wasn’t indicative of how many people were trying to get ahold of the item compared to how much of the item was currently available. The less of the item that’s avaible compared to the amount of people who are trying to get ahold of it- the higher the price will be. Eventually, though, more sellers will come into the market and start capitalizing on the sales, so more will be available, and the price will drop.

Now, imagine that somewhere people start “cheating” and making fake copies of the medium of exchange. No one catches them at this right away, and even if they did, there would be no way of enforcing punishment. They start spending their fake money to buy more luxury goods. This happens to the point where many more luxury goods are produced than the actual value in the market can consume.

More people learn how to reproduce the money, and it starts loosing value quickly, but not before it is used to buy goods in a much different fashion than it would if it was limited and the people using it actually had to budget. Sellers are switching markets and changing the amount of goods they produce all over the place. Infact, they start over-producing because people are overbuying with fake money, but no one can see the whole picture.

The medium of exchange looses value, and to make a long story short the market suffers for a while because it’s produced too many goods for the actual amount of value (and by that I mean work contributed to) in the market to buy.

If this process happens too many times the market will become very inefficient at meeting the actual needs of the population because it isn’t being told the right thing.
[/quote]

Ok, we’re on the same page except your conclusion is incorrect. If the currency is devalued there will be fewer goods produced while consumption is increased. It is this that effectively raises prices (what people incorrectly call inflation). If the money supply is increased before the supply of goods it will lead to demand outstripping supply. When producers go to restock supply prices will be bid up do to the (artificial) increase in demand. If the money supply increases while supply is increased prices would overall stay the same. If however, the money supply stays the same and production increases prices will fall.

It is my assertion that this latter circumstance is the most preferable to the two former because our money would actually be a store of value (any money we save would end up being worth more when we actually decide to spend it). There is no natural, necessary reason why money should ever lose its value. This is why capitalism provides the best possible material quality of life for the most people – because when people are productive and free to trade, more goods and services are brought into existence and every one is better off as a result of their money having more purchasing power.

I would wager that if there were competition between currencies (i.e., private coinage) what you describe would have little probability of happening to a wide spread degree. Actually, what you describe is precisely the problem with (actual) inflation by the Fed and why we need competition in currency.

And to get back to the original subject of this thread, money is the key to hegemony. Who ever controls the money controls our freedom – and there can be no real freedom without economic freedom.