Amputee Healings?

BlakeAJackson · May 2, 2011, 1:50pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God is logic, but logic is not all He is nor is logic God.[/quote]

G-d is pure spirit, one substance. That substance is love, love is truth, truth encompasses logic and logic is the way in which truth interacts with itself (a la not contradict itself), logic is the way in which everything works – imperfectly except G-d – in the world.[/quote]

Logic does not imply that an argument follows reason, or what we would find rational and reasonable. How does that not bother you?

You cannot place simplistic confines on an infinite g-d. To say g-d is love or g-d is truth is finite. While it supports a logical argument it is unreasonable in that the finite cannot equal the infinite. This makes your logic invalid and your argument meaningless to any reasonable logical person.

pat · May 2, 2011, 1:51pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< The reason why this is hugely problematic, is that for predestination to be true, as a Christian, is slashes huge swaths of scripture as either wrong or utterly meaningless. >>>[/quote]On the contrary. All scripture comes to life and the true awesomeness of God is thereby magnified and exalted. He’s nothing like you Pat regardless of how badly you wish He were.
[/quote]

LOL! Ok, nice cut…
Tirib, I have thought about this little war we’ve been having and have realized how pointless it is. For my part, I was actually doing it on purpose to see if I could get you to defend your positions, but you never bit. But more importantly, I really don’t want to fight with you any more, so I won’t.

Further, I wish to apologize for all the mean and nasty stuff I have said to you. It only served to divide not bridge. I reacted because you offended me, a task not usually easily done, but you got my goat. If an atheist had said what you said, I probably would not have even blinked. Anyhow, even if you offend me in the future, I will no longer react or attack in kind.

Now, of course you know I did nothing of the sort with regards to making God like me, at all. I think you know that too. My contention is this, we don’t know how God does it. This is an age old question long before the reformation took place.

I feel Calvin took a liberty here he does not have. He took the to opposing views, slammed them together and made the bold proclamation that God is this way, with out sufficient evidence for this point of view. He just said it’s this way and God is all powerful so get over it. The problem is, he doesn’t know this. Nobody does.
The big problem is that there really is no evidence and the logic is fallacious. It not paradoxical, it’s just wrong. You cannot have both freewill and be predeclared. It’s like trying to stop and go at the same time. Quite frankly there are better explanations for the resolution of this issue. BUT the most important thing is that no explanation should be made a dogma. It’s not something we can know, it’s just something to ponder, but not say “God is this way, period.” He could, but nothing really points to it.

The fallacy is making this thought process unwavering dogma when it is anything but.

JoabSonOfZeruiah · May 2, 2011, 3:00pm

Here, proof that God has healed amputees. Now I wonder if you are going to persist on the amputee issue like I have never posted this or actually bring up the deeper issue the problem of evil as the reason for your unbelief?

“we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus’s severed ear (Luke 22:50-51)”
from

mertdawg · May 2, 2011, 3:05pm

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God is logic, but logic is not all He is nor is logic God.[/quote]

G-d is pure spirit, one substance. That substance is love, love is truth, truth encompasses logic and logic is the way in which truth interacts with itself (a la not contradict itself), logic is the way in which everything works – imperfectly except G-d – in the world.[/quote]

Logic does not imply that an argument follows reason, or what we would find rational and reasonable. How does that not bother you?

You cannot place simplistic confines on an infinite g-d. To say g-d is love or g-d is truth is finite. While it supports a logical argument it is unreasonable in that the finite cannot equal the infinite. This makes your logic invalid and your argument meaningless to any reasonable logical person. [/quote]

Love, Truth, Logic are icons of the incomprehensible God.

mertdawg · May 2, 2011, 3:11pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Here, proof that God has healed amputees. Now I wonder if you are going to persist on the amputee issue like I have never posted this or actually bring up the deeper issue the problem of evil as the reason for your unbelief?

“we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus’s severed ear (Luke 22:50-51)”
from
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html[/quote]

I don’t think that will convince the question poser.

Anyway as a side note, I wonder how many realize that the term leprousy in the bible simply meant “scaly”. It was a term used to describe unclean rashes in the skin. The disease leprousy appeared in the human population after the time of Christ.

forlife · May 2, 2011, 6:57pm

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Here, proof that God has healed amputees. Now I wonder if you are going to persist on the amputee issue like I have never posted this or actually bring up the deeper issue the problem of evil as the reason for your unbelief?

“we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus’s severed ear (Luke 22:50-51)”
from
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html[/quote]

Kudos for at least trying to answer the question.

Of course, I believe the bible is a book of fabricated stories so it doesn’t really answer the question for me. But even if it did, it begs the question why god doesn’t heal amputees today, while restricting himself to only performing healings that have alternate natural explanations.

People make up shit all the time. Put them in a controlled setting, and they can never repeat it. It’s true for divine healings, ESP, telekinesis, and every other supernatural claim people make. Of course, psychics are just con artists…but you can’t heal people in controlled conditions because, um, god will not prove himself and he will not be mocked!!!

Tiribulus · May 2, 2011, 10:31pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< The reason why this is hugely problematic, is that for predestination to be true, as a Christian, is slashes huge swaths of scripture as either wrong or utterly meaningless. >>>[/quote]On the contrary. All scripture comes to life and the true awesomeness of God is thereby magnified and exalted. He’s nothing like you Pat regardless of how badly you wish He were.
[/quote]

LOL! Ok, nice cut…
Tirib, I have thought about this little war we’ve been having and have realized how pointless it is. For my part, I was actually doing it on purpose to see if I could get you to defend your positions, but you never bit. But more importantly, I really don’t want to fight with you any more, so I won’t.

Further, I wish to apologize for all the mean and nasty stuff I have said to you. It only served to divide not bridge. I reacted because you offended me, a task not usually easily done, but you got my goat. If an atheist had said what you said, I probably would not have even blinked. Anyhow, even if you offend me in the future, I will no longer react or attack in kind.

Now, of course you know I did nothing of the sort with regards to making God like me, at all. I think you know that too. My contention is this, we don’t know how God does it. This is an age old question long before the reformation took place.

I feel Calvin took a liberty here he does not have. He took the to opposing views, slammed them together and made the bold proclamation that God is this way, with out sufficient evidence for this point of view. He just said it’s this way and God is all powerful so get over it. The problem is, he doesn’t know this. Nobody does.
The big problem is that there really is no evidence and the logic is fallacious. It not paradoxical, it’s just wrong. You cannot have both freewill and be predeclared. It’s like trying to stop and go at the same time. Quite frankly there are better explanations for the resolution of this issue. BUT the most important thing is that no explanation should be made a dogma. It’s not something we can know, it’s just something to ponder, but not say “God is this way, period.” He could, but nothing really points to it.

The fallacy is making this thought process unwavering dogma when it is anything but. [/quote]Pat if you’re sincere about this (I’m not saying you’re not) then amen. I have no desire to be your enemy and never have. I pray God’s blessing on you with all the sincerity there is (I really actually do).

You should read Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion” just for your own education. Grab it from my server for later if you wish. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Institutes_of_the_Christian_Religion-John_Calvin.pdf I have repeatedly said that Thomas Aquinas was an intellectual colossus which to deny would only make one look foolish anyway. He was. At the time I read the Summa Theologica I ate it up. Brain candy to say the least.

For your own edification, before you die, do yourself a favor and read the institutes. You have unjustly trivialized Calvin who was every bit the orbiting genius that Aquinas was. I would pay a lot to see those 2 debate in an open forum. Even many humanistic atheistic philosophers tip the hat to John Calvin wondering what such a giant could have taught us were he not born 500 years ago enslaved to the primitive state of knowledge of the day. You might actually enjoy it while expanding your personal education.

Makavali · May 2, 2011, 11:05pm

[quote]pat wrote:
I have already answered your question. The answer is, you don’t know if it ever happened or not. Do you know the fate of every person who is an amputee that has ever lived and know that not one of them ever received healing? Just because you’ve never heard of it, doesn’t mean it has not happened.[/quote]

Just because I’ve never seen a flying pig, does not mean it has not happened.

Brother_Chris · May 2, 2011, 11:46pm

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God is logic, but logic is not all He is nor is logic God.[/quote]

G-d is pure spirit, one substance. That substance is love, love is truth, truth encompasses logic and logic is the way in which truth interacts with itself (a la not contradict itself), logic is the way in which everything works – imperfectly except G-d – in the world.[/quote]

Logic does not imply that an argument follows reason, or what we would find rational and reasonable. How does that not bother you?[/quote]

When I am talking about an argument and I say that the argument is logical, I usually mean that it is valid and sound (because most people are not philosophy majors) and because if something is logical it includes that it is valid and sound. We are talking deductive logic right?

[quote]
You cannot place simplistic confines on an infinite g-d. To say g-d is love or g-d is truth is finite. While it supports a logical argument it is unreasonable in that the finite cannot equal the infinite. This makes your logic invalid and your argument meaningless to any reasonable logical person. [/quote]

G-d is infinite because he is eternal, timeless, and immaterial (he is unbounded). An actual infinite is not possible, because an actual infinite is contradictory in reality and only possible in the mind, but illusionary in the actual. Meaning infinite IS unsound or unreasonable and meaningless to reasonable persons.

We have to define G-d with finite terms because the inability to define G-d in his actuality. G-d is pure spirit, that is true but it is a finite in nature and is not exhaustive of what G-d actually is. G-d is also logic, word, spirit, breath, being, love, truth, &c.

However, all the terms in the world still do not describe G-d and neither do all the thoughts. Moreover, we do have characteristics of G-d in which he has revealed through his only begot son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Like, Jesus is the logos or the logic (translated Jesus is the Word).

Brother_Chris · May 2, 2011, 11:50pm

[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, I believe the bible is a book of fabricated stories so it doesn’t really answer the question for me.
[/quote]

Even the crucifixion, empty tomb, resurrection, and martyr parts?

Brother_Chris · May 2, 2011, 11:52pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I have already answered your question. The answer is, you don’t know if it ever happened or not. Do you know the fate of every person who is an amputee that has ever lived and know that not one of them ever received healing? Just because you’ve never heard of it, doesn’t mean it has not happened.[/quote]

Just because I’ve never seen a flying pig, does not mean it has not happened.[/quote]

I’ve seen a flying pig, I actually have a picture of it back home.

Brother_Chris · May 2, 2011, 11:59pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< The reason why this is hugely problematic, is that for predestination to be true, as a Christian, is slashes huge swaths of scripture as either wrong or utterly meaningless. >>>[/quote]On the contrary. All scripture comes to life and the true awesomeness of God is thereby magnified and exalted. He’s nothing like you Pat regardless of how badly you wish He were.
[/quote]

LOL! Ok, nice cut…
Tirib, I have thought about this little war we’ve been having and have realized how pointless it is. For my part, I was actually doing it on purpose to see if I could get you to defend your positions, but you never bit. But more importantly, I really don’t want to fight with you any more, so I won’t.

Further, I wish to apologize for all the mean and nasty stuff I have said to you. It only served to divide not bridge. I reacted because you offended me, a task not usually easily done, but you got my goat. If an atheist had said what you said, I probably would not have even blinked. Anyhow, even if you offend me in the future, I will no longer react or attack in kind.

Now, of course you know I did nothing of the sort with regards to making God like me, at all. I think you know that too. My contention is this, we don’t know how God does it. This is an age old question long before the reformation took place.

I feel Calvin took a liberty here he does not have. He took the to opposing views, slammed them together and made the bold proclamation that God is this way, with out sufficient evidence for this point of view. He just said it’s this way and God is all powerful so get over it. The problem is, he doesn’t know this. Nobody does.
The big problem is that there really is no evidence and the logic is fallacious. It not paradoxical, it’s just wrong. You cannot have both freewill and be predeclared. It’s like trying to stop and go at the same time. Quite frankly there are better explanations for the resolution of this issue. BUT the most important thing is that no explanation should be made a dogma. It’s not something we can know, it’s just something to ponder, but not say “God is this way, period.” He could, but nothing really points to it.

The fallacy is making this thought process unwavering dogma when it is anything but. [/quote]Pat if you’re sincere about this (I’m not saying you’re not) then amen. I have no desire to be your enemy and never have. I pray God’s blessing on you with all the sincerity there is (I really actually do).

You should read Calvin’s “Institutes of the Christian Religion” just for your own education. Grab it from my server for later if you wish. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com:8080/forum1/host/Institutes_of_the_Christian_Religion-John_Calvin.pdf I have repeatedly said that Thomas Aquinas was an intellectual colossus which to deny would only make one look foolish anyway. He was. At the time I read the Summa Theologica I ate it up. Brain candy to say the least.

For your own edification, before you die, do yourself a favor and read the institutes. You have unjustly trivialized Calvin who was every bit the orbiting genius that Aquinas was. I would pay a lot to see those 2 debate in an open forum. Even many humanistic atheistic philosophers tip the hat to John Calvin wondering what such a giant could have taught us were he not born 500 years ago enslaved to the primitive state of knowledge of the day. You might actually enjoy it while expanding your personal education.
[/quote]

Hey, if Calvin was a Genius you only have a Catholic Monastery to blame for that. Although I do find William Lane Craig to be somewhat of a smart guy and he went to University of Birmingham.

Makavali · May 3, 2011, 12:02am

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Here, proof that God has healed amputees. Now I wonder if you are going to persist on the amputee issue like I have never posted this or actually bring up the deeper issue the problem of evil as the reason for your unbelief?

“we have the historical record of Jesus healing lepers, some of whom we may assume had lost digits or facial features. In each case, the lepers were restored whole (Mark 1:40-42; Luke 17:12-14). Also, there is the case of the man with the shriveled hand (Matthew 12:9-13), and the restoration of Malchus’s severed ear (Luke 22:50-51)”
from
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-heal-amputees.html[/quote]

Kudos for at least trying to answer the question.

Of course, I believe the bible is a book of fabricated stories so it doesn’t really answer the question for me. But even if it did, it begs the question why god doesn’t heal amputees today, while restricting himself to only performing healings that have alternate natural explanations.

People make up shit all the time. Put them in a controlled setting, and they can never repeat it. It’s true for divine healings, ESP, telekinesis, and every other supernatural claim people make. Of course, psychics are just con artists…but you can’t heal people in controlled conditions because, um, god will not prove himself and he will not be mocked!!!
[/quote]

“My tiny mind can’t comprehend You so therefore I have decided You don’t exist.”[/quote]

“My tiny mind can’t comprehend the universe so therefore I have decided a giant intergalactic space genie exists.”

pat · May 3, 2011, 2:12am

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Or another way around this is there are an infinate possible outcomes for every person, every event, ect, and God, because he is omnipotent, can see ALL of these, while mankind can not because of freewill and can only react to what is happening as it happens.[/quote]

Fuck yes!! Absolutely. I love it.

pat · May 3, 2011, 2:30am