Amputee Healings?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
222

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, I believe the bible is a book of fabricated stories so it doesn’t really answer the question for me.
[/quote]

Even the crucifixion, empty tomb, resurrection, and martyr parts?[/quote]

Like I said, people make up shit all the time. They made up shit 2,000 years ago just like they make up shit today. And for the same reasons.

Even the Catholic church acknowledges this. They’ve rejected scores of letters written at the same time as the letters they ultimately sanctioned, on the basis of those letters being fraudulent and claiming fictional events that weren’t facts. It’s more than coincidence that the letters they decided to adopt happened to support their particular doctrinal beliefs, while other letters cast doubt on those beliefs.[/quote]

Most of those ‘letters’ that were rejected were not written at the same time, unless you considered the middle of the second century as the same thing as the first century and early second century…and no scholar don’t. Most of the letters they rejected didn’t cast doubt on their beliefs, the books were exaggerated (Gospel of Peter from 150 A.D) or weren’t used as liturgical readings (Proto-Evangelium of James).[/quote]

What is your explanation for the slew of letters that claimed false facts?[/quote]

You mean the one’s deemed not divine?

223

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
GUYS! I just realized: God has never caused gold to spontaneously appear in my hand, therefore he can’t be real. [/quote]

So, your all-powerful, all-loving god created the ENTIRE universe, can cure diseases, part the sea for Moses, preserve the bodies of saints, etc., but can NOT for some reason do a simple amputee healing or materialize a trivial bit of gold in your hand.

Hmm. Am I asking for too much from your god?

And here’s another question which will befuddle you since you won’t use your faculty of reason.

How do you know there’s only one god?

And don’t give me a self-referential answer like it says in Leviticus 13:1 that Jesus said there is only one god therefore I believe whatever it says in there since I can’t use my brain.

(Still amazes me how people are so blinded by mythology.)[/quote]

I didn’t know Jesus was speaking in Leviticus.

Two reasons, according to the truth and Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Kalam Argument, Thomas Aquinas there is one god/intelligent mind/greater good/&c. Moreover, Occam’s Razor. Why would we need multiple eternal, timeless, space-less, personal beings when one is enough.[/quote]

If you want to invoke Occam’s Razor, 0 gods is less than 1 god.[/quote]

It says not to multiply or to complicate, not to not have one.

224

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
GUYS! I just realized: God has never caused gold to spontaneously appear in my hand, therefore he can’t be real. [/quote]

So, your all-powerful, all-loving god created the ENTIRE universe, can cure diseases, part the sea for Moses, preserve the bodies of saints, etc., but can NOT for some reason do a simple amputee healing or materialize a trivial bit of gold in your hand.

Hmm. Am I asking for too much from your god?

And here’s another question which will befuddle you since you won’t use your faculty of reason.

How do you know there’s only one god?

And don’t give me a self-referential answer like it says in Leviticus 13:1 that Jesus said there is only one god therefore I believe whatever it says in there since I can’t use my brain.

(Still amazes me how people are so blinded by mythology.)[/quote]

I didn’t know Jesus was speaking in Leviticus.

Two reasons, according to the truth and Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Kalam Argument, Thomas Aquinas there is one god/intelligent mind/greater good/&c. Moreover, Occam’s Razor. Why would we need multiple eternal, timeless, space-less, personal beings when one is enough.[/quote]

If you want to invoke Occam’s Razor, 0 gods is less than 1 god.[/quote]

It says not to multiply or to complicate, not to not have one.[/quote]

But as Forlife has said, and I have said many times, we don’t deny that that there may be some supreme force/intelligence/consciousness that started and perhaps holds the universe together. But that’s it. This force does not interfere in our lives or otherwise helps us if we say the right magic words, i.e., pray. Religion has certainly complicated things, wouldn’t you say? Having grown up Catholic, I can’t think of a more complicated system. There’s one God, but there’s really three instances of that God. And then there’s the saints - technically not God or “lessor gods” yet you could pray to them. And certain days you couldn’t eat meat, but fish is okay. And the dry, tasteless wafer magically transformed into the body of Jesus. Can you not see why some of us think this might be superstition? I’ll never forget the day I learned about transubstantiation. I literally read the passage in my little religious studies book many times to make sure I was reading it right because I could not comprehend how any intelligent adult could believe in such a thing.

225

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
But as Forlife has said, and I have said many times, we don’t deny that that there may be some supreme force/intelligence/consciousness that started and perhaps holds the universe together.[/quote]

Well, maybe I should present the historical argument for Jesus.

G-d gave us religion.

So when you say complicated you mean hard to understand?

Do you know what prayer means?

Fish wasn’t considered meat when this was put into practice.

No, it doesn’t magically transform.

Superstition is doing something without understanding the reason behind it. I understand the reasons behind them, so no.

[quote]I’ll never forget the day I learned about transubstantiation. I literally read the passage in my little religious studies book many times to make sure I was reading it right because I could not comprehend how any intelligent adult could believe in such a thing.
[/quote]

Many intelligent people said the same thing about other intelligent people. But accusing people of being stupid and needy because they believe that is ridiculous.

226

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If it’s not supposed to be a miracle, why do people constantly interpret it as such and use it to support their belief in their god?

And if god doesn’t prove himself through miracles, does nobody find it a little suspect that every single one of these “miracles” can occur spontaneously, while there isn’t a single example of something that would not be possible spontaneously?[/quote]

As I’ve posited before, science can never explain free will/non-determination. It is a) part of the standard copenhagan model of quantum physics and b) is by definition in that model “beyond further explanation” and yet free will would make every human thought and choice a miracle. Science can not explain why the universe is a collapsed wave function-an “observable” and not just a superposition of all mathematical possibilities.

I think the root of your question is not about “miracles”, but about why God allows pain. Maybe I’m wrong here, but let me ask, why would God heal a missing leg?

Why is there pain, and why doesn’t God just show himself beyond any human capacity to doubt seem to be the deeper questions. No?[/quote]

Why would god heal the blind, cure cancer, and perform other miracles that just happen to occur spontaneously, but never, even once, perform miracles with no alternate explanation?[/quote]

I have not read through every post, so this may be covered.

Discussions such as this never lead anywhere because they begin with an erroneous assumption.

I will not address every single miraculous event in the Bible. However, time and time again in the New Testament Christ does not take credit for the miracles that occur. He clearly states that it is the FAITH of the recipient that produces the miraculous result.

Let me repeat this again. It was the believer’s faith in Christ, not Christ himself, that performed the miracle.

As you believe, it shall be done unto you.

Do not blame Christ, blame the amputee if you are intent in assigning blame in this most arbitrary of examples.

Even in the Old Testament, when Moses was leading the Israelites out of Egypt and the Pharaoh’s armies were catching up to them by the edge of the sea, it was not God who split the seas. In the ancient Aramaic translations, when Moses called out to God to save them, God’s response came back something along the lines of “why are you bothering Me?” In other words, it was Moses’s faith in God that split the waters and held them wide for the Isralites to pass through.

227

[quote]JEATON wrote:<<< Let me repeat this again. It was the believer’s faith in Christ, not Christ himself, that performed the miracle. >>>[/quote]Could you clarify this please? I know where you’re getting it from and there is a large element of truth there. However as stated above this is just not so.

228

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:<<< Let me repeat this again. It was the believer’s faith in Christ, not Christ himself, that performed the miracle. >>>[/quote]Could you clarify this please? I know where you’re getting it from and there is a large element of truth there. However as stated above this is just not so.
[/quote]

I am unsure as to exactly how you wish me to clarify. And I do not wish to dissect hairs. (and I do not have a Bible with me at the moment.)
When the woman who had been chronically bleeding was healed, Christ had to stop, search the crowd, and ask who had touched his robe. He did not know and had not chosen anyone for healing. It was simply the pure faith of the woman, that by simply clutching the hem of Christ’s robe that she would be healed. Her faith acted like the closing of a circuit that could allow the power of God to flow down and through her.

Similarly, at the pool Of Bethesda, the crippled man had been returning to the side of the pool every day for 40 years, never having made it into the water when the angels stirred it and gave it healing properties. When Christ walked by and the man called out to him, Christ simply told him to arise, pick up his mat and go home. His faith had healed him.

Again and again in the Old Testament, people have to take action, often outrageous action, yet in full faith in God before they are the participant in a miracle.

A little boy named David was able to kill a mighty warrior giant with simply an sling and stone. It was his unshakable faith in God that allowed this to happen. Had he been scared or shown doubt, it would have never happened.

I do not know if this helps. If not, clarify and I will try again.

229

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< you must demonstrate either 1) an event that cannot be naturally explained >>>[/quote]How bout a 9 year old boy’s kneecaps moving right before his eyes from pointing toward one another to normal? Does that count.
[/quote]I just did it myself, so I’d say not.[/quote]You’d have to be born with your legs bending outward toward your shoulders. Kneecaps facing each other with your legs straight and then watch them move around to normal within seconds in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Lemme know when ya pull that off. I am telling you that if you knew this guy and saw the pictures, our conversation would now be about how whatever fixed this boys legs, it wasn’t Jesus.
[/quote]

Have you talked with a doctor to confirm this is medically impossible?

People have been known to perform superhuman feats, like lifting a car, under the right conditions.

How are the kids knees today, following the “miracle”? Are you saying there was no change whatsoever from birth, then a sudden miraculous change, and that the knees have never reverted in the slightest since then? And how do you know this…based on the kid’s unbiased account?

Most importantly, why are these miraculous faith healings never replicated in a lab? Surely god could heal someone in a lab where the patient’s history, diagnosis, and condition could be medically confirmed by a professional?

On a recent episode of Miracle Detectives, there was a guy in a wheelchair who was 100% convinced that god would heal him on the last day of a spiritual retreat. They priest prayed over him and invoked the Holy Spirit to heal him…but he collapsed back into his wheelchair unable to walk.

Maybe he didn’t have enough faith? Or maybe god is camera shy?

Just maybe it’s because the guy’s spinal cord was severed, and it would have been a true miracle for him to suddenly walk.

230

[quote]forlife wrote:

Most importantly, why are these miraculous faith healings never replicated in a lab? Surely god could heal someone in a lab where the patient’s history, diagnosis, and condition could be medically confirmed by a professional?[/quote]

Yeah, why can’t we stuff God in a box and make him perform like a trained monkey? Now if we could do that there is no question a tiny percentage of highly educated atheists would really start to believe.

231

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
…the burden is on the believer to provide evidence for his claims. Lacking that evidence, he’s just making shit up. [/quote]

I have no burden. I didn’t “claim” anything. I just happen to believe the claims of others.

Do you believe the claims of others, for instance, that the crew of Magellan circumnavigated the world between 1519 and 1522? Can you provide evidence? Or do you have faith that the claims of others are truthful? PROVE to me that the 18 sailors who survived the voyage actually made it all the way around globe.

If you can’t…all I have to say is…you’re making shit up. Dooood.
[/quote]

The problem is you’re using an inconsistent standard. You choose to believe Christian stories, while ignoring Hindu, Buddhist, and Muslim stories. It’s not rocket science why. Had you been born and raised in Iraq, you would be worshiping Allah and insisting that the stories about him are true.

I take any historical “facts” with a large grain of salt, particularly when people might have a motivation to convolute those “facts” to suit their purpose.

Science doesn’t depend on hearsay. You can run the identical experiment yourself, and independently confirm the same results.

232

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< you must demonstrate either 1) an event that cannot be naturally explained >>>[/quote]How bout a 9 year old boy’s kneecaps moving right before his eyes from pointing toward one another to normal? Does that count.
[/quote]I just did it myself, so I’d say not.[/quote]You’d have to be born with your legs bending outward toward your shoulders. Kneecaps facing each other with your legs straight and then watch them move around to normal within seconds in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Lemme know when ya pull that off. I am telling you that if you knew this guy and saw the pictures, our conversation would now be about how whatever fixed this boys legs, it wasn’t Jesus.
[/quote]

Have you talked with a doctor to confirm this is medically impossible?

People have been known to perform superhuman feats, like lifting a car, under the right conditions.

How are the kids knees today, following the “miracle”? Are you saying there was no change from birth whatsoever from birth, then a sudden miraculous change, and that the knees have never reverted in the slightest since then? And how do you know this…based on the kid’s unbiased account?

Most importantly, why are these miraculous faith healings never replicated in a lab? Surely god could heal someone in a lab where the patient’s history, diagnosis, and condition could be medically confirmed by a professional?

On a recent episode of Miracle Detectives, there was a guy in a wheelchair who was 100% convinced that god would heal him in the last day of a spiritual treat. They priest prayed over him and invoked the Holy Spirit to heal him…but he collapsed back into his wheelchair unable to walk.

Maybe he didn’t have enough faith? Or maybe god is camera shy?

Just maybe it’s because the guy’s spinal cord was severed, and it would have been a true miracle for him to suddenly walk.[/quote]

forlife, all conjectures regarding the validity of the act aside, let me ask you something:

If there really was a miracle. Like, a for real, honest to GOD, actual hand of God coming down from Heaven and fixing kneecaps for protecting that cloak from the bomb we talked about a while back miracle, in short, if there actually is a God and he is the God of the Bible and has deigned to intervene in our pitiful little lives, then wouldn’t Matthew 4:7 apply all the more poignantly?

233

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Of course, I believe the bible is a book of fabricated stories so it doesn’t really answer the question for me.
[/quote]

Even the crucifixion, empty tomb, resurrection, and martyr parts?[/quote]

Like I said, people make up shit all the time. They made up shit 2,000 years ago just like they make up shit today. And for the same reasons.

Even the Catholic church acknowledges this. They’ve rejected scores of letters written at the same time as the letters they ultimately sanctioned, on the basis of those letters being fraudulent and claiming fictional events that weren’t facts. It’s more than coincidence that the letters they decided to adopt happened to support their particular doctrinal beliefs, while other letters cast doubt on those beliefs.[/quote]

Most of those ‘letters’ that were rejected were not written at the same time, unless you considered the middle of the second century as the same thing as the first century and early second century…and no scholar don’t. Most of the letters they rejected didn’t cast doubt on their beliefs, the books were exaggerated (Gospel of Peter from 150 A.D) or weren’t used as liturgical readings (Proto-Evangelium of James).[/quote]

What is your explanation for the slew of letters that claimed false facts?[/quote]

You mean the one’s deemed not divine?[/quote]

Yes.

234

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
GUYS! I just realized: God has never caused gold to spontaneously appear in my hand, therefore he can’t be real. [/quote]

So, your all-powerful, all-loving god created the ENTIRE universe, can cure diseases, part the sea for Moses, preserve the bodies of saints, etc., but can NOT for some reason do a simple amputee healing or materialize a trivial bit of gold in your hand.

Hmm. Am I asking for too much from your god?

And here’s another question which will befuddle you since you won’t use your faculty of reason.

How do you know there’s only one god?

And don’t give me a self-referential answer like it says in Leviticus 13:1 that Jesus said there is only one god therefore I believe whatever it says in there since I can’t use my brain.

(Still amazes me how people are so blinded by mythology.)[/quote]

I didn’t know Jesus was speaking in Leviticus.

Two reasons, according to the truth and Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Kalam Argument, Thomas Aquinas there is one god/intelligent mind/greater good/&c. Moreover, Occam’s Razor. Why would we need multiple eternal, timeless, space-less, personal beings when one is enough.[/quote]

If you want to invoke Occam’s Razor, 0 gods is less than 1 god.[/quote]

It says not to multiply or to complicate, not to not have one.[/quote]

Concocting a supernatural magical being that knows all and has all power is an unnecessary complication that violates Occam’s Razor.

235

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
If it’s not supposed to be a miracle, why do people constantly interpret it as such and use it to support their belief in their god?

And if god doesn’t prove himself through miracles, does nobody find it a little suspect that every single one of these “miracles” can occur spontaneously, while there isn’t a single example of something that would not be possible spontaneously?[/quote]

As I’ve posited before, science can never explain free will/non-determination. It is a) part of the standard copenhagan model of quantum physics and b) is by definition in that model “beyond further explanation” and yet free will would make every human thought and choice a miracle. Science can not explain why the universe is a collapsed wave function-an “observable” and not just a superposition of all mathematical possibilities.

I think the root of your question is not about “miracles”, but about why God allows pain. Maybe I’m wrong here, but let me ask, why would God heal a missing leg?

Why is there pain, and why doesn’t God just show himself beyond any human capacity to doubt seem to be the deeper questions. No?[/quote]

Why would god heal the blind, cure cancer, and perform other miracles that just happen to occur spontaneously, but never, even once, perform miracles with no alternate explanation?[/quote]

I have not read through every post, so this may be covered.

Discussions such as this never lead anywhere because they begin with an erroneous assumption.

I will not address every single miraculous event in the Bible. However, time and time again in the New Testament Christ does not take credit for the miracles that occur. He clearly states that it is the FAITH of the recipient that produces the miraculous result.

Let me repeat this again. It was the believer’s faith in Christ, not Christ himself, that performed the miracle.

As you believe, it shall be done unto you.

Do not blame Christ, blame the amputee if you are intent in assigning blame in this most arbitrary of examples.

Even in the Old Testament, when Moses was leading the Israelites out of Egypt and the Pharaoh’s armies were catching up to them by the edge of the sea, it was not God who split the seas. In the ancient Aramaic translations, when Moses called out to God to save them, God’s response came back something along the lines of “why are you bothering Me?” In other words, it was Moses’s faith in God that split the waters and held them wide for the Isralites to pass through.

[/quote]

So miracles that can be explained through natural means are attributable to a person’s faith, but true miracles that would require supernatural intervention never occur in a controlled, confirmable setting because the person never has enough faith?

236

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< you must demonstrate either 1) an event that cannot be naturally explained >>>[/quote]How bout a 9 year old boy’s kneecaps moving right before his eyes from pointing toward one another to normal? Does that count.
[/quote]I just did it myself, so I’d say not.[/quote]You’d have to be born with your legs bending outward toward your shoulders. Kneecaps facing each other with your legs straight and then watch them move around to normal within seconds in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Lemme know when ya pull that off. I am telling you that if you knew this guy and saw the pictures, our conversation would now be about how whatever fixed this boys legs, it wasn’t Jesus.
[/quote]

Have you talked with a doctor to confirm this is medically impossible?

People have been known to perform superhuman feats, like lifting a car, under the right conditions.

How are the kids knees today, following the “miracle”? Are you saying there was no change from birth whatsoever from birth, then a sudden miraculous change, and that the knees have never reverted in the slightest since then? And how do you know this…based on the kid’s unbiased account?

Most importantly, why are these miraculous faith healings never replicated in a lab? Surely god could heal someone in a lab where the patient’s history, diagnosis, and condition could be medically confirmed by a professional?

On a recent episode of Miracle Detectives, there was a guy in a wheelchair who was 100% convinced that god would heal him in the last day of a spiritual treat. They priest prayed over him and invoked the Holy Spirit to heal him…but he collapsed back into his wheelchair unable to walk.

Maybe he didn’t have enough faith? Or maybe god is camera shy?

Just maybe it’s because the guy’s spinal cord was severed, and it would have been a true miracle for him to suddenly walk.[/quote]

forlife, all conjectures regarding the validity of the act aside, let me ask you something:

If there really was a miracle. Like, a for real, honest to GOD, actual hand of God coming down from Heaven and fixing kneecaps for protecting that cloak from the bomb we talked about a while back miracle, in short, if there actually is a God and he is the God of the Bible and has deigned to intervene in our pitiful little lives, then wouldn’t Matthew 4:7 apply all the more poignantly?[/quote]

Matthew 4:7 is a clever escape clause, that effectively frees believers from having to back up any of their claims. Every time these claims cannot be replicated under reliable conditions that rule out natural explanations, they utterly fail. And surely that’s because god will not be tested, rather than because people desperately want to believe these things are real. It allows people to claim anything they want, and provides a sham protection for their beliefs.

Which is fine, if the goal is for people to have comfort and meaning in their lives. But it doesn’t mean any of it is actually based in reality.

People readily understand and agree with this when it comes to miraculous claims of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and even certain Christian sects, but they are blind to the logical flaw when it comes to their own beliefs.

237

Can science “explain” wave particle duality? Can God make the photon go through one slit and not the other? Well it went through one, and science is presumably utterly incapable of explaining why.

Can a butterfly flapping its wings cause a hurricane to hit an island? Yes, in fact, but it can never be known that it DID regardless of the completeness of our scientific models.

Miracles are foreordained in the laws of nature. And yet they can be done imminently, because to God their is no “before” and “after”.

238

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< you must demonstrate either 1) an event that cannot be naturally explained >>>[/quote]How bout a 9 year old boy’s kneecaps moving right before his eyes from pointing toward one another to normal? Does that count.
[/quote]I just did it myself, so I’d say not.[/quote]You’d have to be born with your legs bending outward toward your shoulders. Kneecaps facing each other with your legs straight and then watch them move around to normal within seconds in answer to prayer in the name of Jesus. Lemme know when ya pull that off. I am telling you that if you knew this guy and saw the pictures, our conversation would now be about how whatever fixed this boys legs, it wasn’t Jesus.
[/quote]

Have you talked with a doctor to confirm this is medically impossible?

People have been known to perform superhuman feats, like lifting a car, under the right conditions.

How are the kids knees today, following the “miracle”? Are you saying there was no change from birth whatsoever from birth, then a sudden miraculous change, and that the knees have never reverted in the slightest since then? And how do you know this…based on the kid’s unbiased account?

Most importantly, why are these miraculous faith healings never replicated in a lab? Surely god could heal someone in a lab where the patient’s history, diagnosis, and condition could be medically confirmed by a professional?

On a recent episode of Miracle Detectives, there was a guy in a wheelchair who was 100% convinced that god would heal him in the last day of a spiritual treat. They priest prayed over him and invoked the Holy Spirit to heal him…but he collapsed back into his wheelchair unable to walk.

Maybe he didn’t have enough faith? Or maybe god is camera shy?

Just maybe it’s because the guy’s spinal cord was severed, and it would have been a true miracle for him to suddenly walk.[/quote]

forlife, all conjectures regarding the validity of the act aside, let me ask you something:

If there really was a miracle. Like, a for real, honest to GOD, actual hand of God coming down from Heaven and fixing kneecaps for protecting that cloak from the bomb we talked about a while back miracle, in short, if there actually is a God and he is the God of the Bible and has deigned to intervene in our pitiful little lives, then wouldn’t Matthew 4:7 apply all the more poignantly?[/quote]

Matthew 4:7 is a clever escape clause, that effectively frees believers from having to back up any of their claims. Every time these claims cannot be replicated under reliable conditions that rule out natural explanations, they utterly fail. And surely that’s because god will not be tested, rather than because people desperately want to believe these things are real. It allows people to claim anything they want, and provides a sham protection for their beliefs.

Which is fine, if the goal is for people to have comfort and meaning in their lives. But it doesn’t mean any of it is actually based in reality.

People readily understand and agree with this when it comes to miraculous claims of Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and even certain Christian sects, but they are blind to the logical flaw when it comes to their own beliefs.
[/quote]

Let me pose the scenario a different way. From a completely anthropomorphic standpoint (and not one I am necessarily pushing as what “is,” only attempting to provide an alternative perspective) :

Imagine you are God. You can do whatever you feel like. Give or withhold health, wholeness and comfort to whomever you choose. You can be the God of the Bible or you can even be Allah or a Hindu God or whatever Zoroaster believed in, doesn’t matter. As God, who are you more likely to heal? Someone who supplicates himself before you, asks with the utmost humility, sincerity and belief in you, and whose opinion of you will not change whether or not he is healed; or the cynical, skeptical agnostic, who has spent countless hours doubting or even outright deriding your works to date, who would demand that YOU prove yourself to him else he shall withhold belief in you.

Really, who would you feel like helping?

239

Why would an atheist believe a regenerated leg to be a miracle, but not the creation of an entire human body in the developmental process of a baby?

God makes a person!, The leg is amputated. If he doesn’t make a new leg then there’s no miracles and no God.

240

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Can science “explain” wave particle duality? Can God make the photon go through one slit and not the other? Well it went through one, and science is presumably utterly incapable of explaining why.

Can a butterfly flapping its wings cause a hurricane to hit an island? Yes, in fact, but it can never be known that it DID regardless of the completeness of our scientific models.

Miracles are foreordained in the laws of nature. And yet they can be done imminently, because to God their is no “before” and “after”.

[/quote]

We’ll never know everything, although it’s very likely our knowledge of reality will continue to grow over time as we use the scientific method.

You don’t seem to be allowing for the possibility that miracles don’t happen.

Maybe the reason the only confirmable miracles have natural causes is because everything has a natural cause, even if we don’t understand the mechanics of that cause yet.

The Greeks believed the sun moved across the sky because Apollo pulled it in his flying chariot. It provided a supernatural explanation for a natural phenomenon, which we eventually figured out.