Amidst Backlash, Dawkins Doubles Down on Down Syndrome

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
My whole argument can be summed up in short, if you want the government’s money (and if you are a non-contributer that’s who’s money it is) then you should have to jump through whatever hoops the government deems fit. [/quote]

I think the mentally handicapped should have to work manual labor in rock mines to get government money then. [/quote]

Actually not a bad idea. Put all non-contributors to work in the rock mines if they want government benefits. Of course, the severely handicapped would not actually go and do this and would not receive those benefits. The “no excuse” non-contributors will try to find something else to do and those that actually cannot do the work will fall under the wing of privatized charity. Welfare state slowly starts to go away.

I have gotten way off topic here, and I am not really sure how. There is also the distinct possibility that we are talking past one another as the people that I am arguing against in this thread are usually the ones I could sit back and let speak for me.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where in the constitution does it state that I have the right to get my dick wet and procreate? [/quote]

Right next to where it says the government can tell people whether or not they can have sex.
[/quote]

Again, no one is advocating governmental oversight of the sex lives of its citizens.[/quote]

Bullshit. You said on the last page that government extorts them with funding.

That is oversight. [/quote]

No one is putting a gun to the head of Joe citizen. A reproductive clause for those benefiting from social welfare incentivizes guardians to take responsibility for the behavior of their legal charges. They would be free to opt out, but the well being of the offspring of any ill fated rendezvous would be the sole responsibility of the legal guardians.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

Children or those with limited mental capacities are not held to the same legal standards as mentally competent adults. Do you know why? [/quote]

Do you know that sometimes they are in fact held to the same standard as adults? Do you know the world isn’t painted in black and white?

No. It has dick to do with “moral agency”. It is because in civilized America we understand that young people don’t have enough knowledge & and experience to always make the choices best suited for their potential growth. It has nothing to do with “not being able to tell right from wrong”. Past the age of 2 most kids damn well know right from wrong.

And stop trying to use rapists to support your position, it isn’t helping.

You’re the dumbest smart person on this board sometimes.

Translation: I’m not saying we should do it, but hey if we did it, GREAT!

Jesus Christ under you logic like 50% of the population shouldn’t be allowed to have sex. Non-handi capped people cannot make responsible decisions in that domain, see: abortion and its support.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where in the constitution does it state that I have the right to get my dick wet and procreate? [/quote]

Right next to where it says the government can tell people whether or not they can have sex.
[/quote]

Again, no one is advocating governmental oversight of the sex lives of its citizens.[/quote]

Bullshit. You said on the last page that government extorts them with funding.

That is oversight. [/quote]

No one is putting a gun to the head of Joe citizen. A reproductive clause for those benefiting from social welfare incentivizes guardians to take responsibility for the behavior of their legal charges. They would be free to opt out, but the well being of the offspring of any ill fated rendezvous would be the sole responsibility of the legal guardians.[/quote]

I dont’ have the energy right now… I may come back to this, I may not.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
My whole argument can be summed up in short, if you want the government’s money (and if you are a non-contributer that’s who’s money it is) then you should have to jump through whatever hoops the government deems fit. In short, you are selling your ability to remain unmolested by big government. For the contributer, SS, medicare, VA benefits do not fall under “the government’s money”, but “the contributor’s money (or earnings in the case of VA benefits)” that was loaned to the government with the expectation of getting something in return when needed. [/quote]

Again, I agree. I think you are playing with fire though. [/quote]

This is my position as well.[/quote]

I only agree with jbpick’s definitions not that the mentally handicapped should be oppressed because they are often, but not always, net takers.

What you advocate is the opposite of freedom.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where in the constitution does it state that I have the right to get my dick wet and procreate? [/quote]

Right next to where it says the government can tell people whether or not they can have sex.
[/quote]

Again, no one is advocating governmental oversight of the sex lives of its citizens.[/quote]

Bullshit. You said on the last page that government extorts them with funding.

That is oversight. [/quote]

No one is putting a gun to the head of Joe citizen. A reproductive clause for those benefiting from social welfare incentivizes guardians to take responsibility for the behavior of their legal charges. They would be free to opt out, but the well being of the offspring of any ill fated rendezvous would be the sole responsibility of the legal guardians.[/quote]

Can we put a reproductive clause on U.S. politician? They suck way more money out of the people than the mentally handicapped.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Medicaid, Obamacare, and the similar programs fall under the welfare tag.
[/quote]

Right here is basically a big part of my issue. You are required by law to be insured or to pay a fine (tax). So now if you enroll in Obamacare (for whatever reason) you are deemed a taker even though in many cases you didn’t really have a choice.

Example, you’re a single dad (wife passed away) who happens to be a contractor (no benefits). You can only afford Obamacare for your child. This guy would be one of the people that is now micro-managed by the government.

Not an America I want to live in.

For the record, I want to reduce welfare spending and just in case an old friend is reading along, I would like to see all aspects of the federal government (including the DOD) cut back.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
No one is putting a gun to the head of Joe citizen. A reproductive clause for those benefiting from social welfare incentivizes guardians to take responsibility for the behavior of their legal charges. They would be free to opt out, but the well being of the offspring of any ill fated rendezvous would be the sole responsibility of the legal guardians.
[/quote]

If the legal guardians do not take responsibility, what happens?

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The irresponsible but non disabled individual is morally responsible for the consequences of their actions. The mentally disabled, however, are not, because they lack moral agency.[/quote]

But your social contract deems we take care of all of the above…

[/quote]

Where have I ever stated the above sentiment? I subscribe to a Hobbesian social contract.
[/quote]

Huh? Hobbes’ social contract stipulates man must submit to be ruled by an absolute monarch - divine right of kings. So according to Hobbes, Obama is appointed by God and has absolute authority to do whatever he likes and if you disobey Obama you are challenging God. Perhaps you should look into Hobbes’ social contract theory and reconsider?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The irresponsible but non disabled individual is morally responsible for the consequences of their actions. The mentally disabled, however, are not, because they lack moral agency.[/quote]

But your social contract deems we take care of all of the above…

[/quote]

Where have I ever stated the above sentiment? I subscribe to a Hobbesian social contract.
[/quote]

Huh? Hobbes’ social contract stipulates man must submit to be ruled by an absolute monarch - divine right of kings. So according to Hobbes, Obama is appointed by God and has absolute authority to do whatever he likes and if you disobey Obama you are challenging God. Perhaps you should look into Hobbes’ social contract theory and reconsider?[/quote]

Not his conception of an all powerful sovereign, no. But individuals ceding to the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force? Yes.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
The irresponsible but non disabled individual is morally responsible for the consequences of their actions. The mentally disabled, however, are not, because they lack moral agency.[/quote]

But your social contract deems we take care of all of the above…

[/quote]

Where have I ever stated the above sentiment? I subscribe to a Hobbesian social contract.
[/quote]

Huh? Hobbes’ social contract stipulates man must submit to be ruled by an absolute monarch - divine right of kings. So according to Hobbes, Obama is appointed by God and has absolute authority to do whatever he likes and if you disobey Obama you are challenging God. Perhaps you should look into Hobbes’ social contract theory and reconsider?[/quote]

Not his conception of an all powerful sovereign, no. But individuals ceding to the state a monopoly on the legitimate use of force? Yes.[/quote]

Take away the all powerful sovereign and it’s not a Hobbesian social contract. If you don’t believe in the divine right of kings then your social contract is of the order of Locke, Rousseau, Kant etc.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where in the constitution does it state that I have the right to get my dick wet and procreate? [/quote]

Right next to where it says the government can tell people whether or not they can have sex.
[/quote]

Again, no one is advocating governmental oversight of the sex lives of its citizens.[/quote]

Plato did. He takes your positive eugenics stuff a step further. In his Republic mentally or physically handicapped babies are killed at birth and the state regulates all procreation. Children who are deemed fit to live by the state are taken from their parents and raised in communal schools.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Those individuals do not lack agency. The mentally disabled, however, do. That is the crux of my argument.[/quote]

You are loosely slinging around a lot of concepts, IMO.

Having “moral agency”, i.e., the ability to make moral judgments based on some commonly held notion of right and wrong, and the legal ability to consent to certain conduct/transactions are separate and distinct, although sometimes related, concepts. Minors, for example, cannot consent to sexual contact for the sole reason that they lack the legal capacity to consent based on the law and a legal policy judgment about the need for bright-line rules and their level of maturity, not necessarily because they do or don’t have the moral capacity to judge right from wrong in any specific case. Similarly, the legal capacity to consent is a separate issue from, for example, a defense to criminal or civil responsibility for an action based on a lack moral agency, i.e., the inability to judge right from wrong, although in specific cases these concepts can be intermingled or get blurred. But, rest assured, minors who lack the legal capacity to consent to a transaction can nevertheless be held civilly and criminally liable for many actions if they have moral agency in a specific case, i.e., have the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

Also, being “mentally disabled” is a pretty fucking broad label and I’d venture to say that a declaration that all “mentally disabled” people lack moral agency can’t be made without some clarification as to how you are defining “mentally disabled.” I would say that under most definitions of “mentally disabled,” lacking moral agency isn’t a necessary or a sufficient condition.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Those individuals do not lack agency. The mentally disabled, however, do. That is the crux of my argument.[/quote]

You are loosely slinging around a lot of concepts, IMO.

Having “moral agency”, i.e., the ability to make moral judgments based on some commonly held notion of right and wrong, and the legal ability to consent to certain conduct/transactions are separate and distinct, although sometimes related, concepts. Minors, for example, cannot consent to sexual contact for the sole reason that they lack the legal capacity to consent based on the law and a legal policy judgment about the need for bright-line rules and their level of maturity, not necessarily because they do or don’t have the moral capacity to judge right from wrong in any specific case. Similarly, the legal capacity to consent is a separate issue from, for example, a defense to criminal or civil responsibility for an action based on a lack moral agency, i.e., the inability to judge right from wrong, although in specific cases these concepts can be intermingled or get blurred. But, rest assured, minors who lack the legal capacity to consent to a transaction can nevertheless be held civilly and criminally liable for many actions if they have moral agency in a specific case, i.e., have the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

Also, being “mentally disabled” is a pretty fucking broad label and I’d venture to say that a declaration that all “mentally disabled” people lack moral agency can’t be made without some clarification as to how you are defining “mentally disabled.” I would say that under most definitions of “mentally disabled,” lacking moral agency isn’t a necessary or a sufficient condition.
[/quote]

Thank you.

Because if a “woman” can consent to allowing 3 dudes packing 9" each to take turns pounding her anus on film for $1500 of coke money and then let them spit and finish on her face, and that is perfectly legal and “shows moral agency” but someone gets to sit back and armchair quarterback people he doesn’t like that have developmental delays and block them from the freedom they deserve… I’m all set.

Because in my view that woman I described above is just as lacking in critical thinking and judgment skills as anyone in this thread would bar from being able to have sex.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Where in the constitution does it state that I have the right to get my dick wet and procreate? [/quote]

Right next to where it says the government can tell people whether or not they can have sex.
[/quote]

Again, no one is advocating governmental oversight of the sex lives of its citizens.[/quote]

Bullshit. You said on the last page that government extorts them with funding.

That is oversight. [/quote]

No one is putting a gun to the head of Joe citizen. A reproductive clause for those benefiting from social welfare incentivizes guardians to take responsibility for the behavior of their legal charges. They would be free to opt out, but the well being of the offspring of any ill fated rendezvous would be the sole responsibility of the legal guardians.[/quote]

So extortion, except for behavior not money…

Yes, I’ve said that is what you have advocated. Do you want to continue to describe it in various ways?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Those individuals do not lack agency. The mentally disabled, however, do. That is the crux of my argument.[/quote]

You are loosely slinging around a lot of concepts, IMO.

Having “moral agency”, i.e., the ability to make moral judgments based on some commonly held notion of right and wrong, and the legal ability to consent to certain conduct/transactions are separate and distinct, although sometimes related, concepts. Minors, for example, cannot consent to sexual contact for the sole reason that they lack the legal capacity to consent based on the law and a legal policy judgment about the need for bright-line rules and their level of maturity, not necessarily because they do or don’t have the moral capacity to judge right from wrong in any specific case. Similarly, the legal capacity to consent is a separate issue from, for example, a defense to criminal or civil responsibility for an action based on a lack moral agency, i.e., the inability to judge right from wrong, although in specific cases these concepts can be intermingled or get blurred. But, rest assured, minors who lack the legal capacity to consent to a transaction can nevertheless be held civilly and criminally liable for many actions if they have moral agency in a specific case, i.e., have the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

Also, being “mentally disabled” is a pretty fucking broad label and I’d venture to say that a declaration that all “mentally disabled” people lack moral agency can’t be made without some clarification as to how you are defining “mentally disabled.” I would say that under most definitions of “mentally disabled,” lacking moral agency isn’t a necessary or a sufficient condition.
[/quote]

Thank you.

Because if a “woman” can consent to allowing 3 dudes packing 9" each to take turns pounding her anus on film for $1500 of coke money and then let them spit and finish on her face, and that is perfectly legal and “shows moral agency” but someone gets to sit back and armchair quarterback people he doesn’t like that have developmental delays and block them from the freedom they deserve… I’m all set.

Because in my view that woman I described above is just as lacking in critical thinking and judgment skills as anyone in this thread would bar from being able to have sex. [/quote]

Dealing with persons who actually lack the mental capacity to care for themselves because of a mental disease or defect presents special and difficult legal problems. But the short answer is, once a person is declared legally incompetent, the state, through the court, simply transfers the right and duty to make important decisions from a person who can’t care for themselves to a guardian, which is usually a family member, if there is a willing family member. The guardian then makes the important decisions, such as whether to buy a car, where to live, and whether, and more pertinent to this thread, to consent to sexual contact or to procreate, in the stead of the incompetent person. Conflicts can occur over who has the right to be the guardian and whether a guardian is complying with their fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the incompetent person, but I don’t really see a better, less intrusive option in cases where a person truly lacks the capacity make important decisions for themselves.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

Dealing with persons who actually lack the mental capacity to care for themselves because of a mental disease or defect presents special and difficult legal problems. But the short answer is, once a person is declared legally incompetent, the state, through the court, simply transfers the right and duty to make important decisions from a person who can’t care for themselves to a guardian, which is usually a family member, if there is a willing family member. The guardian then makes the important decisions, such as whether to buy a car, where to live, and whether, and more pertinent to this thread, to consent to sexual contact or to procreate, in the stead of the incompetent person. Conflicts can occur over who has the right to be the guardian and whether a guardian is complying with their fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the incompetent person, but I don’t really see a better, less intrusive option in cases where a person truly lacks the capacity make important decisions for themselves. [/quote]

Sure, but you guys are completely missing the fact this isn’t enough for Bizmark.

He is advocating, though extortion that the guardians make a choice the state chooses.

No one is saying the guardian is a bad idea. What I’m arguing is taking away their ability to decide what is right or wrong for the individual and instead, admittedly slyly, do the state’s bidding.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Sure, but you guys are completely missing the fact this isn’t enough for Bizmark.
[/quote]

I’ll confess I didn’t closely read most of his posts; the repeated misuse/misapplication of the term “moral agency” was distracting and gave me a bad case of tired head.