[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Of course they should be free to reproduce. Are the mentally disabled not worthy of liberty?
Whether or not they should reproduce is another question, but no one has the right to take that liberty from them.
Do they have a custodian? I have a friend who’s mentally retarded 19 year old son (developmentally 6-7) is having a love affair. Everyones happy about it, but absolutely no-one wants the young couple to have children.
[quote]
Dawkins is a moral relativist. His suffering may be another’s happiness and a downs syndrome child is a perfect example of this. The pure happiness of those with DS and the happiness they bring to those around them is astounding. To call that suffering and deem himself the decider of happiness is, as others have alluded to, an extreme act of arrogance.[/quote]
It’s actually simpler and less philosophical :
Dawkins is a biologist.
He is simply in favor of a technocratic and expertocratic society where people like him would have more power than they already have.
It’s has nothing to do with anyone’s happiness or suffering.
Utilitarianism and relativism are just a posteriori justifications for a very mundane lust for power.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Here’s another one: should non-mentally disabled individuals be free to prohibit mentally disabled individuals from reproducing?[/quote]
Another: What is mental disability?
More: Should a mentally disabled person be punished for murdering another human? If it’s acknowledged that one should, then how can others justify prohibiting them from reproducing? Perhaps mental disability is just part of social contract theory? If you accept protected status as “mentally handicapped”, then you also hand to others control over your own body?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]BPCorso wrote:
…The costs of government having control of who is able to reproduce is too high…
[/quote]
Ceding additional power to government is always a risky move.
[/quote]
I don’t think anyone is arguing the government should decide. If a person is not considered of sound mind or mentally competent then someone with power of enduring guardianship makes such decisions on their behalf. So in an ethical sense it should come down to “is the person mentally competent?” As we’re talking about people who aren’t it’s difficult to argue that their guardians do not have a right to make such decisions for them.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Here’s another one: should non-mentally disabled individuals be free to prohibit mentally disabled individuals from reproducing?[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Of course they should be free to reproduce. Are the mentally disabled not worthy of liberty?
Whether or not they should reproduce is another question, but no one has the right to take that liberty from them.[/quote]
Not when it is detrimental to society at large, no.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Here’s another one: should non-mentally disabled individuals be free to prohibit mentally disabled individuals from reproducing?[/quote]
The right question is who decides and how? Unless you can answer that, assume you or your children will not be allowed to reproduce because I can guarantee someone can always argue that someone is “dumb”. First time we have a disagreement, I will swear on a stack of bibles you are an idiot. I’m sure you will return the favor. Where does that leave our kids? What’s more, anyone that gets to make these decisions has the power of life and death over you and your family. If the mentally deficient are a burden when unborn, they are more so when they need care. Publicly mandated euthenasia is a horrible idea.
So I’ll ask those of you who have advocated this: Who gets to decide, how do they decide and you’d better start this off by admitting your kids will be first in line for this process.
(There is no reason in the world for us to be having this discussion in the first place.)
As always full of shit,
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Here’s another one: should non-mentally disabled individuals be free to prohibit mentally disabled individuals from reproducing?[/quote]
The right question is who decides and how? Unless you can answer that, assume you or your children will not be allowed to reproduce because I can guarantee someone can always argue that someone is “dumb”. First time we have a disagreement, I will swear on a stack of bibles you are an idiot. I’m sure you will return the favor. Where does that leave our kids? What’s more, anyone that gets to make these decisions has the power of life and death over you and your family. If the mentally deficient are a burden when unborn, they are more so when they need care. Publicly mandated euthenasia is a horrible idea.
So I’ll ask those of you who have advocated this: Who gets to decide, how do they decide and you’d better start this off by admitting your kids will be first in line for this process.
(There is no reason in the world for us to be having this discussion in the first place.)
As always full of shit,
– jj[/quote]
Who the hell is advocating euthanasia? We’re talking about deciding if a mentally disabled individual should reproduce. Who should decide? Well, who decides the other stuff in their life? A guardian? If they’re not capable of entering into a contract or making decisions about their own health and so on then it’s a no brainer - their guardian decides. You cannot argue that their guardian doesn’t have that right. What decision the guardian makes is a different story.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Of course they should be free to reproduce. Are the mentally disabled not worthy of liberty?
Whether or not they should reproduce is another question, but no one has the right to take that liberty from them.[/quote]
Not when it is detrimental to society at large, no.[/quote]
Society is an imaginary group label with no significance in the actual world. It has no feelings, it has no rights, it can take no action. Only individuals have those things. I could come up with a term to represent all the left handed people named David in the world. Let’s call them david-left-ites. But applying that label doesn’t create an entity comprised of those people with anything other than individual will, or rights, or feelings. It’s nonsense to say X action hurts david-left-ites. Or david-left-ites deserve Y because they are no more a thing because I apply a group label than if no such label existed. But people do the very thing with terms like society or government. If you really boil it down to the rational logic of what is being claimed, it’s pure nonsense. There is no such thing as detriment to an imaginary object. And if you are justifying your morality using such terms that’s all your morality is, nonsense.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
The question is, do mentally disabled people have the mental state to consent to have sex. By our current laws, they most certainly do NOT. Therefore, anyone having sex with a mentally disabled person is committing rape. Since rape is clearly illegal, we have already answered our question: mentally disabled people are not allowed to reproduce.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Here’s another one: should non-mentally disabled individuals be free to prohibit mentally disabled individuals from reproducing?[/quote]
The right question is who decides and how? Unless you can answer that, assume you or your children will not be allowed to reproduce because I can guarantee someone can always argue that someone is “dumb”. First time we have a disagreement, I will swear on a stack of bibles you are an idiot. I’m sure you will return the favor. Where does that leave our kids? What’s more, anyone that gets to make these decisions has the power of life and death over you and your family. If the mentally deficient are a burden when unborn, they are more so when they need care. Publicly mandated euthenasia is a horrible idea.
So I’ll ask those of you who have advocated this: Who gets to decide, how do they decide and you’d better start this off by admitting your kids will be first in line for this process.
(There is no reason in the world for us to be having this discussion in the first place.)
As always full of shit,
– jj[/quote]
Who the hell is advocating euthanasia? We’re talking about deciding if a mentally disabled individual should reproduce. Who should decide? Well, who decides the other stuff in their life? A guardian? If they’re not capable of entering into a contract or making decisions about their own health and so on then it’s a no brainer - their guardian decides. You cannot argue that their guardian doesn’t have that right. What decision the guardian makes is a different story.
[/quote]
If the guardian is to make that decision is the guardian then responsible for the child?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
Of course they should be free to reproduce. Are the mentally disabled not worthy of liberty?
Whether or not they should reproduce is another question, but no one has the right to take that liberty from them.[/quote]
Not when it is detrimental to society at large, no.[/quote]
Society is an imaginary group label with no significance in the actual world. It has no feelings, it has no rights, it can take no action. Only individuals have those things. I could come up with a term to represent all the left handed people named David in the world. Let’s call them david-left-ites. But applying that label doesn’t create an entity comprised of those people with anything other than individual will, or rights, or feelings. It’s nonsense to say X action hurts david-left-ites. Or david-left-ites deserve Y because they are no more a thing because I apply a group label than if no such label existed. But people do the very thing with terms like society or government. If you really boil it down to the rational logic of what is being claimed, it’s pure nonsense. There is no such thing as detriment to an imaginary object. And if you are justifying your morality using such terms that’s all your morality is, nonsense.[/quote]
Err…okay. So if some guy is running loose with the Ebola virus no one has the right to quarantine him and thereby take away his liberty right? How could he be a danger to society? Society is only a label; an abstraction right? And why road rules? What individual can you point to that is being specifically protected? If society is only an abstraction then who needs them? Not a very sound argument. The fact that society cannot be personified does not mean that the collective interests of the people don’t exist.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Here’s an interesting question: should mentally disabled individuals be free to reproduce? [/quote]
The question is, do mentally disabled people have the mental state to consent to have sex. By our current laws, they most certainly do NOT. Therefore, anyone having sex with a mentally disabled person is committing rape. Since rape is clearly illegal, we have already answered our question: mentally disabled people are not allowed to reproduce.[/quote]
What if they are both mentally disabled?