American's More Pro-Life

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
I don’t see how rape would make any difference. If it’s murder, then it’s murder regardless, and it’s not the child’s fault the woman was raped.

The further argument is that choice has been taken out of the mattet. In the normal situation, the woman has accepted the risk of sex and must live with the consequences (so the argument goes). It’s not fair for her to prevent a life from coming into being beause she started the ball rolling, even if she took steps to prevent pregancies. There was always a chance it would be a consequence of her voluntary actions. That’s not the case with a rape victim.

Some members here have said they believe a born child starving to death to be as bad as an abortion in moral terms. Therefore if a woman is raped theoretically doesn’t realise she is pregnant until very late term and is told there would be complications threatening her health if she went ahead and had the abortion, could she have the child and starve it to death and that would be justified?

It is ridiculous to try to equate the two, and I think even the most ardent abortion oppositionist will agree with that. No matter how awful you think abortion is, intentionally starving a living thing is that much worse. There is no burden in this case of forcing a mother to carry a child to term. There is no coercive aspect here. The child is born. She made that choice. How can you possibly say the mother is justified in murdering a child she has already birthed? The mother doesn’t need to care for it. Others can. We have a system set up for that. THe mother would be actively keeping this child from being adopted or put into foster care with the goal of killing it.

I’m equating them because I asked fox and he said they were equally horrible.

What about if she didn’t bother going to hospital and the baby needed treatment when it was born, and as a result died. She had no choice to have the baby, but some anti-abortionists think she should have had the right to abortion. If she takes the baby to a foster care centre as soon as it is born (dead or about to die) then she is not actively keeping the child.[/quote]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Obviously if she takes the baby to a foster care center, she will be saving its life as she should. Not going to the hospital when she should may be criminally negligent homicide (it would depend on the circumstances). Intentionally starving a baby to death is murder. The law, morality, and logic all recognize that both are terrible but that there is a qualitative difference.

222

[quote]orion wrote:
colleend78 wrote:
orion wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
orion wrote:
colleend78 wrote:
orion wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:

What gives us the power to determine what a woman wants to do with her body?

Once again, can we please throw this argument on the trash heap? It is not part of her body, it is IN her body, dependent yes, but as a separate biological organism.

I find your argument that it is not a person as much more compelling (you said ‘human being’, but I think mean ‘person’–correct me if I’m wrong. It is clearly human).

Hell, I’d even find the argument that the fetus is a parasite more persuasive than what you just wrote. I’d still find that particular argument fetid but at least it would be on a higher level.

I am afraid that that argument is still valid for you force her to support an embryo with her body against her wishes.

Being a woman myself the ‘right to choose’ ends when you chose to have sex. If you don’t want to be pregnant, don’t have sex. End of story. As in the cases of rape and abuse I think that what to do about it is a deeply personal decision and we don’t have any reason to dictate what goes on there.

That makes you pro choice, for all practical purposes.

Wait, what? How is the traditional pro-life stance now defined as pro choice?

Because she says that it is a personal matter whether a women wants to carry out a child conceived by rape or abuse.

Since we do not know whether a woman was raped or not and since we have no way of knowing that, it means that government should stay out of the whole affair.

Except that when a woman is raped her CHOICE has been obliterated as is the case with abuse. I’ve never been in that situation, but I would hope that women would be willing to at least have the baby and perhaps let someone adopt it instead of just ending an innocent’s life. It wasn’t the babys fault that it came to be because of a violent, selfish act. That being said and being the mother of four kids I know exactly how life changing and difficult it is to go through pregnancy. We can’t tell someone who has been impregnated by rape or abuse what she is to do about it.

And no - I am not pro choice. Like I said - the woman’s choice was clearly already taken away and whatever she decides to do is her business.

It does not matter. For all practical reasons you are still pro-choice if you think that a woman can decide for herself if she was raped. They will simply all claim that they were raped.
“Jane Roe” of Roe vs Wade claimed to have been raped but as she herself later admitted she was not.

Also, it is not true that a woman that has been raped has no choice later on. The moment the rape stops she is fully capable of making choices again.
[/quote]

I have to agree. If you thought it was immoral to carry out an abortion before you were raped, it’s still immoral to carry out an abortion after you were raped. Sure, more sympathy goes out to you but if you thought it was killing then, nothing’s changed. The act of abortion is the same thing. She’s given a choice on that matter.

223

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
I don’t see how rape would make any difference. If it’s murder, then it’s murder regardless, and it’s not the child’s fault the woman was raped.

The further argument is that choice has been taken out of the mattet. In the normal situation, the woman has accepted the risk of sex and must live with the consequences (so the argument goes). It’s not fair for her to prevent a life from coming into being beause she started the ball rolling, even if she took steps to prevent pregancies. There was always a chance it would be a consequence of her voluntary actions. That’s not the case with a rape victim.

Some members here have said they believe a born child starving to death to be as bad as an abortion in moral terms. Therefore if a woman is raped theoretically doesn’t realise she is pregnant until very late term and is told there would be complications threatening her health if she went ahead and had the abortion, could she have the child and starve it to death and that would be justified?

It is ridiculous to try to equate the two, and I think even the most ardent abortion oppositionist will agree with that. No matter how awful you think abortion is, intentionally starving a living thing is that much worse. There is no burden in this case of forcing a mother to carry a child to term. There is no coercive aspect here. The child is born. She made that choice. How can you possibly say the mother is justified in murdering a child she has already birthed? The mother doesn’t need to care for it. Others can. We have a system set up for that. THe mother would be actively keeping this child from being adopted or put into foster care with the goal of killing it.

I’m equating them because I asked fox and he said they were equally horrible.

What about if she didn’t bother going to hospital and the baby needed treatment when it was born, and as a result died. She had no choice to have the baby, but some anti-abortionists think she should have had the right to abortion. If she takes the baby to a foster care centre as soon as it is born (dead or about to die) then she is not actively keeping the child.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Obviously if she takes the baby to a foster care center, she will be saving its life as she should. Not going to the hospital when she should may be criminally negligent homicide (it would depend on the circumstances). Intentionally starving a baby to death is murder. The law, morality, and logic all recognize that both are terrible but that there is a qualitative difference. [/quote]

Obviously I’m not talking about the law, because what is the actual law now is irrelevant.

If a woman who has sex has to live with the consequences it must be immoral to stop the consequences because it will harm someone else. Therefore a woman who ends the consequences when she isn’t responsible (rape) is murdering a child. The anti-abortionists believe abortion is murder. Then why should it matter if she brings the child to term and then doesn’t bother going to hospital and the child dies? If she can have an abortion because she was raped, and abortion is murder then what does the act of giving birth do?
This case is different from starving because she is remaining inactive rather than stopping someone from taking the child.

224

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
tom63 wrote:
The issue is whether or not it is life all the other debates are mental masturbation.

Untrue. What if it is substantially certain that the mother will die if she carries to term? Then it is a choice between two lives. Those who could blithely condemn a mother to substantially certain death scare me. In such a case, it is a very difficult issue and decision to say the least. [/quote]

That’s called triage, which is sued in emergency medicine. Sometiems you can only save one. But how many abortions are performed when the mother will die if they don’t abort? Seriously.

225

[quote]eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
eigieinhamr wrote:
I don’t see how rape would make any difference. If it’s murder, then it’s murder regardless, and it’s not the child’s fault the woman was raped.

The further argument is that choice has been taken out of the mattet. In the normal situation, the woman has accepted the risk of sex and must live with the consequences (so the argument goes). It’s not fair for her to prevent a life from coming into being beause she started the ball rolling, even if she took steps to prevent pregancies. There was always a chance it would be a consequence of her voluntary actions. That’s not the case with a rape victim.

Some members here have said they believe a born child starving to death to be as bad as an abortion in moral terms. Therefore if a woman is raped theoretically doesn’t realise she is pregnant until very late term and is told there would be complications threatening her health if she went ahead and had the abortion, could she have the child and starve it to death and that would be justified?

It is ridiculous to try to equate the two, and I think even the most ardent abortion oppositionist will agree with that. No matter how awful you think abortion is, intentionally starving a living thing is that much worse. There is no burden in this case of forcing a mother to carry a child to term. There is no coercive aspect here. The child is born. She made that choice. How can you possibly say the mother is justified in murdering a child she has already birthed? The mother doesn’t need to care for it. Others can. We have a system set up for that. THe mother would be actively keeping this child from being adopted or put into foster care with the goal of killing it.

I’m equating them because I asked fox and he said they were equally horrible.

What about if she didn’t bother going to hospital and the baby needed treatment when it was born, and as a result died. She had no choice to have the baby, but some anti-abortionists think she should have had the right to abortion. If she takes the baby to a foster care centre as soon as it is born (dead or about to die) then she is not actively keeping the child.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Obviously if she takes the baby to a foster care center, she will be saving its life as she should. Not going to the hospital when she should may be criminally negligent homicide (it would depend on the circumstances). Intentionally starving a baby to death is murder. The law, morality, and logic all recognize that both are terrible but that there is a qualitative difference.

Obviously I’m not talking about the law, because what is the actual law now is irrelevant.

If a woman who has sex has to live with the consequences it must be immoral to stop the consequences because it will harm someone else. Therefore a woman who ends the consequences when she isn’t responsible (rape) is murdering a child. The anti-abortionists believe abortion is murder. Then why should it matter if she brings the child to term and then doesn’t bother going to hospital and the child dies? If she can have an abortion because she was raped, and abortion is murder then what does the act of giving birth do?
This case is different from starving because she is remaining inactive rather than stopping someone from taking the child.[/quote]

What point are you trying to make, eigie? Are you saying that the anti-abortionist argument that it’s killing life is flawed because there is a difference in killing a child after it’s fully born and abortion (therefore it’s not really life before the child is fully birthed)?

I’m trying my hardest not to misunderstand you, lol.

226

This thread blew up while I was gone. Can I just say that I’m glad none of us were killed in the womb, allowing for everyone’s participation in this here thread?

227

[quote]Sloth wrote:
This thread blew up while I was gone. Can I just say that I’m glad none of us were killed in the womb, allowing for everyone’s participation in this here thread?[/quote]

For all you know there could have been 5 more voices in this here thread that were silenced. Abortion is a fucking joke. I’m sorry but are people that weak and inhuman these days that simply raising a child is so fucking hard? Sippery slope, soon people will be requesting to kill off the elders because they can’t wipe thier own ass and are a burden on society. After that we’ll go for killing off the disabled, I mean fuck lets just cull the fucking herd and be done with it. Sorry I’m having a bad day at work.

V

P.S. Sloth that wasn’t directed at you. Just moreso people who get abortions due to personal weakness and the help of enablers who instead of helping the person find strength, help them find excuses.

228

Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

229

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Sloth wrote:
This thread blew up while I was gone. Can I just say that I’m glad none of us were killed in the womb, allowing for everyone’s participation in this here thread?

For all you know there could have been 5 more voices in this here thread that were silenced. Abortion is a fucking joke. I’m sorry but are people that weak and inhuman these days that simply raising a child is so fucking hard? Sippery slope, soon people will be requesting to kill off the elders because they can’t wipe thier own ass and are a burden on society. After that we’ll go for killing off the disabled, I mean fuck lets just cull the fucking herd and be done with it. Sorry I’m having a bad day at work.

V

P.S. Sloth that wasn’t directed at you. Just moreso people who get abortions due to personal weakness and the help of enablers who instead of helping the person find strength, help them find excuses. [/quote]

Preach it brother.

230

[quote]LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… ;)[/quote]

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V

231

[quote]Vegita wrote:
LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V[/quote]

A friend of mine had a baby when he was 16. Long story short he got full custody and raised that kid who just graduated high-school. I asked him and he said he has absolutely zero regrets, though he said abortion was not even an option he considered.
So you point is taken, most of these folks are just pussies who cannot and will not take responsibility for themselves or their own actions.

232

[quote]pat wrote:
Vegita wrote:
LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V

A friend of mine had a baby when he was 16. Long story short he got full custody and raised that kid who just graduated high-school. I asked him and he said he has absolutely zero regrets, though he said abortion was not even an option he considered.
So you point is taken, most of these folks are just pussies who cannot and will not take responsibility for themselves or their own actions.[/quote]

This is nonsense, y´all can´t have it both ways.

A cold blooded “baby killer” who does it just do not have to give up some hobbies might be a lot of things, but a “pussy” he is not.

233

[quote]orion wrote:
pat wrote:
Vegita wrote:
LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V

A friend of mine had a baby when he was 16. Long story short he got full custody and raised that kid who just graduated high-school. I asked him and he said he has absolutely zero regrets, though he said abortion was not even an option he considered.
So you point is taken, most of these folks are just pussies who cannot and will not take responsibility for themselves or their own actions.

This is nonsense, y�´all can�´t have it both ways.

A cold blooded “baby killer” who does it just do not have to give up some hobbies might be a lot of things, but a “pussy” he is not.[/quote]

Actually this isn’t correct, nost of the times, people who commit violence are doing so out of fear, not out of lack of fear. Almost anytime anything atacks another thing it is because of two causes, food or fear. There is very very few who can claim pleasure and those are the truly messed up people. I can go deep into this if you want, but I think you probably know what I am talking about. And if you do agree that people commit violence out of fear, then you also agree that it means they are weak, and therefore pussies. Strength of character might be a better way to describe it, and lack of strength of character would be a good way to describe those who would have an abortion.

V

234

[quote]Vegita wrote:
LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V[/quote]

Wasn’t looking for an apology; I just meant that I liked the change of pace you brought while I was tiptoeing around the issue. You just said what you believed and explained why. That was nice.

Yeah I think abortion is wrong.
I don’t care if it’s technically life or not. I don’t care if it’s killing. You should realize you’re taking away invaluable potential for another being. There could have been a baby. It’s simple.

My problem is more the legality of the matter. Along with a host of complications (false rape convictions, unsafe illegal abortions as examples), making abortions illegal isn’t quite right. It’s not fair for the government to say the woman cannot choose to have an abortion because irresponsible men have the option of running away to a greater degree than irresponsible women. The woman’s body goes through physical changes that no money or child support could compensate for. I would have a problem that someone else gets to decide that for her or not.

Then again, guys have less of a voice when it comes to abortion. Maybe they don’t want to be responsible for the child. Maybe if he was a woman he would choose to undergo an abortion and forget and move on with his life. Instead he has to live with a choice the woman made (or run away). So legal abortions are pretty unfair as well, not just to the baby/fetus/cell.

In the end I choose to remain conflicted, and indecisive. :slight_smile: Personally, I would suck it up and try my hardest to become the best mom for my kid.

235

[quote]LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Vegita wrote:
LittleAsianDoll wrote:
Damn, Vegita.

You just made me sound like an indecisive fool in comparison… :wink:

My apologies, I intend to make no one look like a fool. Also I was a little pent up yesterday. I still hold to what I said, but I mean I am generally not all that angry about it. Weak people get under my skin though. And i’m not calling the people who are arguing that abortion should be legal weak, but the majority of people who do get abortions are weak pathetic excuses for human beings, not in every case, but in all the ones where it is because the child might change the persons lifestyle and they “Just aren’t ready for that” or whatever bullshit they say. I’d wager that 90% of people who have thier first born aren’t ready for it, thats why humans are good at adaption, within a few short weeks you go from idiot who barely knows anything about a baby, to knowing your shit, and if you are a decent human being, then you become a decent parent.

I mean if we are gonna go killing things that bring our society down, lets kill the baby AND the mother. (except in the case of rape) you would have one less little bastard and one less irresponsible whore. As some of you see it.

V

Wasn’t looking for an apology; I just meant that I liked the change of pace you brought while I was tiptoeing around the issue. You just said what you believed and explained why. That was nice.

Yeah I think abortion is wrong.
I don’t care if it’s technically life or not. I don’t care if it’s killing. You should realize you’re taking away invaluable potential for another being. There could have been a baby. It’s simple.

My problem is more the legality of the matter. Along with a host of complications (false rape convictions, unsafe illegal abortions as examples), making abortions illegal isn’t quite right. It’s not fair for the government to say the woman cannot choose to have an abortion because irresponsible men have the option of running away to a greater degree than irresponsible women. The woman’s body goes through physical changes that no money or child support could compensate for. I would have a problem that someone else gets to decide that for her or not.

Then again, guys have less of a voice when it comes to abortion. Maybe they don’t want to be responsible for the child. Maybe if he was a woman he would choose to undergo an abortion and forget and move on with his life. Instead he has to live with a choice the woman made (or run away). So legal abortions are pretty unfair as well, not just to the baby/fetus/cell.

In the end I choose to remain conflicted, and indecisive. :slight_smile: Personally, I would suck it up and try my hardest to become the best mom for my kid.[/quote]

Well aside from my personal beliefs, which I made pretty clear, I am a libertarian, so I feel the government should stay out of it. To a point that is. I believe the government is charged with prosecuting crimes, and killing another human is definately a crime. So, if a person can be charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman, then the baby is alive and worth protecting under our other laws, like not killing someone. Also since there is a grey area as to just when the offspring can be considered alive, or a seperate entity, or having rights, I’m pretty sure we should be erring on the side of caution. So the day of conception becomes the legal definition for when life begins regardless of what science and opinions go back and forth on the matter. There can never be conclusive evidence so you err on the side of caution and say well if it is we don’t want to kill it because that would be killing a human and that is murder. Murder is against the law so if you have an abortion, you will be charged with murder along with the doctor who was the accomplice, or whatever. And then let the irresponsible people who break the law and murder, go to prison.

Now the great thing about all this is that I stayed within my libertarian leanings and came out against abortion, but some of my libertarian brethren, will say it is no ones business.

My bigger problem with abortion is that as a society we continue to take away all of our learning and growth opportunities. It is so easy to fix problems we get ourselves into these days that no one learns anything anymore. I know a woman who has had no less than 6 abortions. I mean fucking christ, this lady is a complete peice of shit person who I would gladly run over with my car if it were legal to do so, but yet she is floating around in our society, ruining men, ruining relationships, causing pain and suffering, and ok murdering babies, and she is oblivious to any concequences. I can’t even imagine the DWI’s she has gotten off of, because of being a female and probably giving the cop a good time or something.

Anyways, this type of person would not survive well in a society where your mistakes and wrongdoings actually had some concequences. Get pregnant, geuss what, you now have a mouth to feed and a child to raise. For some people this is all it takes for them to mature to a point where they are no longer the center of the universe, now they have a new perspective on a whole bunch of things. But somewhere along the lines, we decided to keep taking away learning experiences because they were uncomfortable or painful. Sheesh. I’m done with this rant.

V