Alternative to Intelligent Design

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
jackzepplin wrote:

Man, that was a good one. I feel so hurt. Ouch. Tail between my legs… Ouuhh, eeehhh, you happy now? The grade school rhetoric is just funny.

Ha, sorry, that was a bit malicious I guess. You have to admit, it is pretty funny that a post you edited in MS word had one logical fallacy and one redundancy.

Pretty much everyone on this thread agrees ID should not be taught in science class…so how the hell did it get implemented into the system?[/quote]

I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.

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[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
Oh, but YOU should be embarrassed for not being able to comprehend the sarcasm the first time. Please take your seat, and I will call your name when I’m ready for you.[/quote]

It seems that you do not understand the word “sarcasm”. Responding to a figurative statement by taking it literally is not, in and of itself, sarcasm. So what exactly about “Dear Newbie, it appears that you signed up in 2004, while I was a member before they were tracking membership sign-ups (probably about four or five years longer than you). So, crawl back into your hole.” is sarcastic?

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[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
You are right on both points. Hope my speaking up on this thread has helped. It is a great pity that a vocal minority has been given so much power. However, I am hopeful that it is less power than it seems. The media have a great interest in puffing things up to sell eyeballs to their advertisers.

Maybe we can get sharetrader to move to Kansas and get elected to the state education board. Whaddaya think, pal? Can you fix this nonsense for us? :slight_smile:

I think there’s a couple of other states mulling this over right now. Pennsylvania?
[/quote]

Sorry mate. No can do. I’m an Australian :wink:

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[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
larryb wrote:

No, I think irrational religious beliefs are harmful even if they are not imposed on non-believers and do not directly impact non-believers. Such beliefs create an irrational mindset. If someone is firmly convinced of some fact despite a large amount of evidence to the contrary, or (figuratively speaking) puts his fingers in his ears and says “Na, na, na” whenever there is a mention of such evidence, then that person probably has little respect for evidence and logic in general.

Nice post larryb, I agree completely. Also, since the bible is pretty ambiguous at times, it’s easy to use it as an excuse to villainize a group of people which the bible apparently denounces (ie. gays). I’ve seen many people on this site alone take advantage of this. If enough people believe this (which is the case in the States) it results in people being deprived of their rights.[/quote]

larryb, I agree that irrational behaviour can be detrimental. So can irrational beliefs, although generally only to the person holding them, assuming they do not try to impose those beliefs on others. But how many of us are completely free of irrational beliefs? I would contend that no-one is. Many believe that they only act rationally, but if you scratch the surface you will find some element of irrationality. It is common, for example, for people to look for some meaning in unusual conjunctions of events, even though a statistician can tell you that these events should occur together at some point, even though infrequently. As an example, it is common for people to attribute extreme weather events to global warming. However, a dispassionate examination of the facts tells us that extreme weather events have always occurred, and will continue to occur, with or without global warming.

CaptainLogic, I fully agree that some people misuse the bible to persecute others. However, this is an individual shortcoming, not a group one. A balanced Christian perspective (even a balanced conservative Christian perspective) would acknowledge that homosexual behaviour, while proscribed in the bible, is simply one of many ways in which people fall short. It is no different from adultery, theft, bearing false witness, worshiping false gods or any one of many sins. Nor is their any biblical mandate for Christians to persecute homosexuals. Christ was fairly clear about removing the speck from your own eye before attempting to deal with the log in your brother’s! And in any case, the appropriate way of dealing with sin on the part of another is not persecution but persuasion, in the context of loving understanding of the other’s situation.

Unfortunately, as you point out, there are always plenty of people willing to drag Christ’s name through the mud while furthering their own ends or trying to force others to conform to their prejudices.

265

PS I know, I got my specks and logs round the wrong way. Mea culpa!

266

[quote]Professor X wrote:
WMD wrote:
The problem is that Christians think they know how everybody else should live, when they can’t even manage their own lives with integrity.

Who are you speaking of specifically? I think I manage my own life just fine. Your life is really not that much of a concern to me unless I influence it directly.

Consider Matthew 7:1-5, whatever version you wish. If you can’t walk the walk, don’t talk the talk. Why would you demand respect for something you don’t attempt to put into practice?

Demand respect? I was told that I show no respect, to which I replied that none had been shown to me. I’m not quite sure what you are even talking about. You would do better to quote me directly.

I am quite aware no one is “perfect”. If you and other Christians know this too, why don’t you leave the rest of us alone and live and let live?

Who is forcing ideas on you? This thread was posted in the Politics and World Issues section of a discussion forum…yet you didn’t expect discussion except from people who agreed with you? Wow.

Why should anyone listen to someone who is as imperfect as they are tell them how to live or what’s sinful and what is not? Would you go for exercise advice to someone who is a fat disgusting slob or would you go to someone who is fit and athletic? Same principle.

No it isn’t. I’m not perfect, but I am also not evil. I think that overall I make pretty good choices in life in spite of mistakes. You expected to only hear this from perfect people? Your argument makes no sense. No one is perfect, so who did you expect to hear anything relating to religion from? Using your very own analogy, I have yet to meet the PERFECT trainer. Does this mean that you won’t learn a lot from a trainer who isn’t perfect but tries to be very good at what he does? According to your own wierd sense of logic, I guess that is the case.

I have no respect for hypocrites of any sort.

Hmmm, who did you vote for?

Oh and it enters our minds because good Christian folk can’t shut up about it. I wish they’d read and practice Matthew chapter 6 entire. They keep trying to make it part of law and education and politics and french fries and every other fucking thing.

Cthulu and FSM 4-ever!

What? We can’t shut up about it? Who started this thread? What threads have been started by anyone claiming to be a Christian that were made to simply hurl insults at Atheists? I can’t think of one time on this forum that I ever just started going on about religion in a thread that wasn’t about religion. This whole post you just wrote lacks any sense. But hey, thanks for posting.[/quote]

Well this was a wierd response, but I’ll try to address it.

Specifically I am speaking of Christians who have political power, who evangelize on TV and those who get all sanctimonious on these boards. I wasn’t necessarily referring to you but if the shoe seems to fit…

As far as demanding respect, most christians seem to think that thier beliefs are inherently respectable, even if they aren’t attempting tp practice what they preach. Seems like that is why you and KJ Bridgewater and other christians responded to this thread. It seemed to be the subplot of your interactions with Pookie.

Forcing ideas on me (and every other non-Christian in the country) are the President and the Religious Right that elected him. The Kansas School Board. Fundamentalist Christians. Etc. Oh and where you got it that I don’t expect anyone to disagree with me, I don’t know. That was a little ways around the bend, Prof.

[quote]Why should anyone listen to someone who is as imperfect as they are tell them how to live or what’s sinful and what is not? Would you go for exercise advice to someone who is a fat disgusting slob or would you go to someone who is fit and athletic? Same principle.

No it isn’t. I’m not perfect, but I am also not evil. I think that overall I make pretty good choices in life in spite of mistakes. You expected to only hear this from perfect people? Your argument makes no sense. No one is perfect, so who did you expect to hear anything relating to religion from? Using your very own analogy, I have yet to meet the PERFECT trainer. Does this mean that you won’t learn a lot from a trainer who isn’t perfect but tries to be very good at what he does? According to your own wierd sense of logic, I guess that is the case.[/quote]

I think you completely misunderstood my point here. I’ll try again. I am not perfect, either, nor am I evil. I do the best I can. The difference is, I don’t feel compelled to insist that everyone live as I do, think as I do and follow the rules of my religion or they are all going to hell. I don’t try to get laws passed based upon my religious beliefs that might negatively affect someone else’s freedom to live their lives as they see fit. Now, again, Prof, I am not neccessarily directing this at you specifically, but at the trend amongst Christian Conservatives in this country. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, don’t.

I don’t expect imperfect people who can’t be bothered to practice their own principles to tell me how I should live. As far as my analogy goes, I think you missed the point there as well. What I meant was, whose advice would you be more inclined to trust: someone who clearly isn’t putting their own advice into practice or someone who is and is clearly getting good results?

I voted for Cthulu. At least he’s up front about being completely evil.

And no, you Christians can’t shut up about what you believe in and how it makes you morally superior to the rest of the world.

I hope you get to feeling better.

WMD

267

[quote]Professor X wrote:
WMD wrote:
When you turn it into a law and insist everone else believe on pain of imprisonment or death. Or if you decide to blow up and abortion clinic because you so fervently believe in the Green Cheese Moon. Or you beat some gay guy to death because the Holy Book of the Green Cheese Moon says it is abomination to be gay. Stuff like that.

Geeze, talk about stereotypes. I have never beaten up a gay guy and never would…unless they attacked me. I am also not against abortions. You sure do know…nothing about me.

I don’t think anyone here has a problem with the faith in and of itself, at least I don’t. The problem arises when the faithful can’t control themselves and begin to insist everyone else believe it, too or you’re goin’ to hell or you have to die or some such thing. While no one has said such a thing yet on this thread, this is the frequent behavior of Christians in our culture. And throughout history.

If no one has said such a thing, then what are you talking about? Could it be that you have simply been listening to the wrong people? What do you do for a living? If someone in your same career field gives me wrong advice, can I sue you for it? Thanks.
[/quote]

Seriously Prof, get some help.

Historically and recently gay bashings, abortion clinic bombings and the insistence that others follow dogma and doctrine have been committed by Christians. I’m not sure how that is a stereotype. I never said you did it or that all Christians do it.

I said no one on THIS thread has said such a thing. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t been said or implied elsewhere.

I’m a graduate student studying Christian history. Feel free to sue me.

WMD

268

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
WMD wrote:

As far as history goes, I’m afraid
Christianity has one of the worst records for human rights violations: the Crusades, the various Inquisitions, witch hunts and I’m afraid that even the Holocaust can to a large extent be laid at Christian feet. The bloody battles and massacres of the Wars of Religion in France, Germany and other parts of Europe. I could go on. I study the history of Christianity in grad school, so this is an important subject to me. I think that Christian fundamentalism is a real threat to our democratic republic. You should read some of the things JJJJ and ZEB post on these boards sometime. If other Christians disagree with the fundamentalists, you need to step up and make your voices heard. It sure would do me a world of good.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

WMD
You’re welcome. WRT history of Christianity, you would know better than most that the Crusades were largely a response to the threat of Islam. Also I suggest that most of the violent activity you mentioned was driven by leaders who paid lip service to Christianity but whose real motive was power. Does this sound familiar?

Of course, Christianity is not the only religion in whose name despots have committed atrocities. Just that at the moment, the majority of peace-loving, law-abiding Christians are copping some bad PR because of the actions of a few zealots.
[/quote]

YOu are right, christianity is definitely not the only religion that despots have used to further their purposes. Just the one being discussed here in America. Islam is pretty bad and even Judaism if you go back far enough.

I definitely agree that Christians in the country are being given a black eye by the relatively small group of zealots. I’d like to see more mainstream Christians speaking out against fanaticism. The silence of the majority implies their tacit agreement.

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[quote]WMD wrote:
Professor X wrote:
WMD wrote:
When you turn it into a law and insist everone else believe on pain of imprisonment or death. Or if you decide to blow up and abortion clinic because you so fervently believe in the Green Cheese Moon. Or you beat some gay guy to death because the Holy Book of the Green Cheese Moon says it is abomination to be gay. Stuff like that.

Geeze, talk about stereotypes. I have never beaten up a gay guy and never would…unless they attacked me. I am also not against abortions. You sure do know…nothing about me.

I don’t think anyone here has a problem with the faith in and of itself, at least I don’t. The problem arises when the faithful can’t control themselves and begin to insist everyone else believe it, too or you’re goin’ to hell or you have to die or some such thing. While no one has said such a thing yet on this thread, this is the frequent behavior of Christians in our culture. And throughout history.

If no one has said such a thing, then what are you talking about? Could it be that you have simply been listening to the wrong people? What do you do for a living? If someone in your same career field gives me wrong advice, can I sue you for it? Thanks.

Seriously Prof, get some help.

Historically and recently gay bashings, abortion clinic bombings and the insistence that others follow dogma and doctrine have been committed by Christians. I’m not sure how that is a stereotype. I never said you did it or that all Christians do it.

I said no one on THIS thread has said such a thing. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t been said or implied elsewhere.

I’m a graduate student studying Christian history. Feel free to sue me.

WMD
[/quote]

Isn’t the definition of Christian someone who tries to model their life after Jesus’ life, so no Christian would bomb an abortion clinic or beat up a homosexual. Christianity is not inherited or just a label, through history a lot of “christians” have done a lot of damage “In the name of Christ”