[quote]BIG_DAWS wrote:
im not a freshman
[/quote]
Excellent grasp of the point of the joke.
(winking smiley face and all of that garbage)
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The biblical saying that God created Man in His own image conveys the answer to your question.
God is much like a human body. Something bad, like an infection, draws the body’s attention. The body sends antibodies to attack the problem, repair crews, and so for.
Same thing for God —something goes haywire, like the nazis come about, and God sends the antibodies (the military of several nations) to wipe it out.
Anyway, that’s how God told me to write it up, so there you go.
God Bless!
[/quote]
Interesting.
And this “God” that you worship. Where does he live? And when and how often does it speak to you?
nephborn: Awesome comic. Where did you find it?
[quote]nephorm wrote:
BIG_DAWS wrote:
im not a freshman
Excellent grasp of the point of the joke.
(winking smiley face and all of that garbage)[/quote]
With my best Jack Bauer voice:
Put…down…that…Sartre…now!
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
nephborn: Awesome comic. Where did you find it?[/quote]
Wikipedia has a version of it, under “Omnipotence Paradox.” It’s all in knowing where to look!
[quote]orion wrote:
hmm
If you want to play around with this:
Is God all powerful or all knowing?
He can`t be both you know, i.e can he decide to do something different than he already knows he will do?[/quote]
This is something I have wrestled with in the past. If god knows what all of our destinies are, then would god knowingly create a soul, that he would knowingly only condemn to “hell”?
Not if you also believe in an all loving god.
Since I do believe there is a god, and that he is all powerful/all knowing, then there can be no such thing as sin, right? If all things are created from god, then aren’t all things gods will?, and if everything that happens is gods will, then how can gods own will be “sinfull”?
So, there can be no “good” or “evil”, only gods will.
Let me tell ya, this led to an interesting conversation with my VERY catholic mother. She’s probably saying a rosary for me right now :-]
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The biblical saying that God created Man in His own image conveys the answer to your question.
God is much like a human body. Something bad, like an infection, draws the body’s attention. The body sends antibodies to attack the problem, repair crews, and so for.
Same thing for God —something goes haywire, like the nazis come about, and God sends the antibodies (the military of several nations) to wipe it out.
Anyway, that’s how God told me to write it up, so there you go.
God Bless!
[/quote]
The Nazis, and Hitler himself, happened solely because it was gods will. It was also Gods will for the Allies to crush them.
God works in mysterious ways, right?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
orion wrote:
hmm
If you want to play around with this:
Is God all powerful or all knowing?
He can`t be both you know, i.e can he decide to do something different than he already knows he will do?
This is something I have wrestled with in the past. If god knows what all of our destinies are, then would god knowingly create a soul, that he would knowingly only condemn to “hell”?
Not if you also believe in an all loving god.
Since I do believe there is a god, and that he is all powerful/all knowing, then there can be no such thing as sin, right? If all things are created from god, then aren’t all things gods will?, and if everything that happens is gods will, then how can gods own will be “sinfull”?
So, there can be no “good” or “evil”, only gods will.
Let me tell ya, this led to an interesting conversation with my VERY catholic mother. She’s probably saying a rosary for me right now :-]
[/quote]
This is the fundamental philosophical problem that has plagued Christianity since the beginning and has given rise to so many offshoot “heresies”.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
This is something I have wrestled with in the past. If god knows what all of our destinies are, then would god knowingly create a soul, that he would knowingly only condemn to “hell”?
[/quote]
As Augustine points out, God has comprehended the universe at once, not over time; time does not have a meaning for God the way that it does for man, and so there is no issue of foreknowledge. For God, knowledge is one.
Most of these kinds of problems arise because we insist on viewing God as thinking and perceiving as would an extremely intelligent, extremely powerful human being.
And if you’d like a Biblical reference:
Romans 9:21
…shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Evil is simply the absensce of good. Therefore sin that is evil is the absence of good.
[quote]blck3jack wrote:
Evil is simply the absensce of good. Therefore sin that is evil is the absence of good. [/quote]
exactly, good and evil are polar opposites that coexist along a continuum if you will. without one you can’t have the other, without darkness there can’t be light. Darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of good.
[quote]BIG_DAWS wrote:
im not sure some of you are quite understanding what i said so i’ll restate. If God is all powerful, can he create a stone that is too heavy even for him to pick up? If he can create it than he wont be able to pick it up…therefore not all powerful. If he cannot create it…not all powerful either.
hmm[/quote]
One answer is this, God is omnipotent wherefore he has the power to make himself non-omnipotent. Thus he can create a stone that he cannot lift. But because he is omnipotent God can make himself able to lift the already created stone. In other words God created a stone too heavy for him to lift, took a year lifted weights, came back strong as ever and lifted the stone.
[quote]Hanzo wrote:
One answer is this, God is omnipotent wherefore he has the power to make himself non-omnipotent.
[/quote]
Or
God is not bound by logic, and so can create square circles, or square triangles, or can create a stone that he cannot lift yet can; the paradox would stand, yet still be so.
or
God can do anything that is not an absurdity; that is, omnipotence carries the meaning that God is capable of doing anything that is capable of being comprehended, but omnipotence does not depend on senseless speech.
But it strikes me that if anyone’s faith is really swayed by this sort of reasoning, it wasn’t very strong to begin with.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
As Augustine points out, God has comprehended the universe at once, not over time; time does not have a meaning for God the way that it does for man, and so there is no issue of foreknowledge. For God, knowledge is one.
[/quote]
This argument lacks meaning. What does it mean to “comprehend the universe at once.” If the argument is going to claim that there are different ways of comprehending the universe (at once, or over time), then it is prerequisite that it distinguish one from the other.
The argument becomes circular at the point that the only distinction that can be made is “well… god does one, and we do the other.” Unfortunatly, that seems to be the only distinction made here.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The biblical saying that God created Man in His own image conveys the answer to your question.
God is much like a human body. Something bad, like an infection, draws the body’s attention. The body sends antibodies to attack the problem, repair crews, and so for.
Same thing for God —something goes haywire, like the nazis come about, and God sends the antibodies (the military of several nations) to wipe it out.
Anyway, that’s how God told me to write it up, so there you go.
God Bless!
Interesting.
And this “God” that you worship. Where does he live? And when and how often does it speak to you?
[/quote]
I suppose God lives everywhere, or anywhere He damned well pleases… 
God has only spoken clearly and plainly to me 2 times: (1) I was engaged to a young lady who died of an arythmia (sp?) two days before her 24th birthday. That night, while lying in bed, a voice which was indescribable (like ‘deep as the ocean’ might cover it) said, “THE SPIRIT.” (2) “GO TO CHINA AND ADOPT A LITTLE GIRL.” , which I finally talked my wife into doing.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The biblical saying that God created Man in His own image conveys the answer to your question.
God is much like a human body. Something bad, like an infection, draws the body’s attention. The body sends antibodies to attack the problem, repair crews, and so for.
Same thing for God —something goes haywire, like the nazis come about, and God sends the antibodies (the military of several nations) to wipe it out.
Anyway, that’s how God told me to write it up, so there you go.
God Bless!
The Nazis, and Hitler himself, happened solely because it was gods will. It was also Gods will for the Allies to crush them.
God works in mysterious ways, right?
[/quote]
Nope. God creates and then lets it run. Sometimes, he pays more attention to one thing and not another. He is perfect but his creation need not be. If he knew everything and controlled everything, how fucking boring would that be? God loves a good adventure as much as the next person.
Many people have this ‘medieval serf’s’ view of God — like God is some king waiting to swoop down upon you. Why would God do that?
I’m typing all this and letting God hit the keys. How cool is that?
[quote]Bane wrote:
This argument lacks meaning. What does it mean to “comprehend the universe at once.” If the argument is going to claim that there are different ways of comprehending the universe (at once, or over time), then it is prerequisite that it distinguish one from the other.
The argument becomes circular at the point that the only distinction that can be made is “well… god does one, and we do the other.” Unfortunatly, that seems to be the only distinction made here.[/quote]
Your argument shouldn’t be with the idea of God having unified knowledge (knowledge being one), but rather with the idea that this is compatible with divine revelation and interference with human affairs.
The argument isn’t circular. We experience time due to the limitations of our intellects and perception. If the universe is a “block” in the way Einstein hypothesized (that is, a four dimensional structure of which we only experience three dimensional slices) then God would know the block itself, rather than experiencing the slices.
God would exist, therefore, outside of time as we understand it. This isn’t incompatible with free will; our wills may still be free, and yet God still know the outcome.
Of course, we then become ensnared in the problem of defining free will, which is a sort of absurdity.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
orion wrote:
hmm
If you want to play around with this:
Is God all powerful or all knowing?
He can`t be both you know, i.e can he decide to do something different than he already knows he will do?
This is something I have wrestled with in the past. If god knows what all of our destinies are, then would god knowingly create a soul, that he would knowingly only condemn to “hell”?
Not if you also believe in an all loving god.
Since I do believe there is a god, and that he is all powerful/all knowing, then there can be no such thing as sin, right? If all things are created from god, then aren’t all things gods will?, and if everything that happens is gods will, then how can gods own will be “sinfull”?
So, there can be no “good” or “evil”, only gods will.
Let me tell ya, this led to an interesting conversation with my VERY catholic mother. She’s probably saying a rosary for me right now :-]
[/quote]
You’ve forgotten about the whole freewill thing. Our will may not be Gods will, be we have the freedom to make our own choices, even if it goes against what he desires for us.
He does not will anyone to go to Hell. As a matter of fact, he went out of his way to die to save everyone so all they had to do was accept his gift. If someone goes to Hell, it is because they chose to reject him, and his gift. It was their choice.
He is not bound to time. He knows everything that you will do, from the first time you crap to the last breath you take. He was there when you were born, and at the same time, there when you died. He knows every choice you made during your life. He knows what you believe when you die, and where you will go as a result of this.
Because of this, he knows when you are born whether you will choose or reject him, but this is only because you made that choice during your life. He may want you to love him and choose heaven, but if you don’t want that, its up to you. He’s not going to deprive you of your choose by eliminating your existence or forcing you to choose what he wants.
Because of all this, not all things that happen are Gods will. They are the will of people, who he loved enough to give freedom over their own actions. Therefore, sinful things are not his will, but our own.
He didn’t make you to reject him and go to Hell. You choose that. He was there when you died, knowing all the choices that YOU made.
He may know where you are going, but only because you made the choice to go there.
[quote]BlairM wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
orion wrote:
hmm
If you want to play around with this:
Is God all powerful or all knowing?
He can`t be both you know, i.e can he decide to do something different than he already knows he will do?
This is something I have wrestled with in the past. If god knows what all of our destinies are, then would god knowingly create a soul, that he would knowingly only condemn to “hell”?
Not if you also believe in an all loving god.
Since I do believe there is a god, and that he is all powerful/all knowing, then there can be no such thing as sin, right? If all things are created from god, then aren’t all things gods will?, and if everything that happens is gods will, then how can gods own will be “sinfull”?
So, there can be no “good” or “evil”, only gods will.
Let me tell ya, this led to an interesting conversation with my VERY catholic mother. She’s probably saying a rosary for me right now :-]
You’ve forgotten about the whole freewill thing. Our will may not be Gods will, be we have the freedom to make our own choices, even if it goes against what he desires for us.[/quote]
If god is aware in advance of what decisions we will make, and still desires for them to happen, then free will cannot be. If he knows that we will have decisions to make, however he isn’t aware of what our decision will be, then that sort of shoots a hole in the whole “all powerfull god” thing then huh.
I believe that he is all knowing though, and that we are all guided by his will. I believe that all of our lives are mapped out in advance of our being born, in accordance to what our souls need to experience and learn.
I don’t believe he does either, as I don’t believe in “hell” as it is described in the bible. However, if he creates a soul that he knows in advance will just go to hell, then he has indeed willed that soul to hell.
That might be true, but it all depends on how much stock you put into your version of the bible. The Jews don’t believe this, are they bound for hell? The Buddhists?
If it is their choice, did God know in advance that he/she would reject him? Did he still allow this to happen? Does allowing this happen make it his will?
I think it does.
[quote]He is not bound to time. He knows everything that you will do, from the first time you crap to the last breath you take. He was there when you were born, and at the same time, there when you died. He knows every choice you made during your life. He knows what you believe when you die, and where you will go as a result of this.
Because of this, he knows when you are born whether you will choose or reject him, but this is only because you made that choice during your life. He may want you to love him and choose heaven, but if you don’t want that, its up to you. He’s not going to deprive you of your choose by eliminating your existence or forcing you to choose what he wants.
Because of all this, not all things that happen are Gods will.[/quote]
How can anything happen that’s not of the will of an all powerful god? To think otherwise is to believe in a less than all powerful god.
[quote]They are the will of people, who he loved enough to give freedom over their own actions. Therefore, sinful things are not his will, but our own.
He didn’t make you to reject him and go to Hell. You choose that. He was there when you died, knowing all the choices that YOU made.
He may know where you are going, but only because you made the choice to go there. [/quote]
I doubt that you and I are going to find some sort of middle ground here, but it’s great discussion nonetheless.
I choose not to believe in a god that would create my soul only to damn me to an eternity of hellfire for a single life of poor decisions. Do you really believe that I might burn for eternity, just because I may have doubts about god at the time of my death?
I believe in a supremely loving god that forgives ALL of our sins. Even the really bad ones.
I believe that “hell”, and “damnation”, are the boogymen of christianity.
I believe that the concept of reincarnation fits well into the concept of a god that is all forgiving, and allows our souls to progress over time.
Overall, I believe that organized religion is not for me :-]
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m typing all this and letting God hit the keys. How cool is that?[/quote]
Of course God is typing and hitting the keys. This entire thread, you, me, this conversation, everything, is his will. Absolutely true.
Our conversation right now was set in motion before either of us were born. How cool is that? :-]