I always get a chuckle out of the chest thumping from people who didn’t fight in WWII, yet feel the need to say, “we saved Europe from evil”, like they had anything to do with it.
Also, since when is Orion a Nazi and why are Americans so obsessed over Nazis and Hitler? Can we have a historical debate without the aforementioned?
Dustin
[quote]Sifu wrote:
If you study the history of post world war one Germany you will find that ultra nationalist groups like the national socialists were being formed as early as 1919. The Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler tried to seize control of the state of Bavaria was in November 1923. This was long before the depression of 1928.
Zap brings up a very important point about the German will to fight not being broken at the end of WW1. The Kaiser’s army was still a force to be reckoned with at the end of WW1 and they knew it. It was the Kiel mutiny where the Kaiser’s navy refused to fight the British again that ended it. That is why a lot of disgrunteled former army men came back from the front and started forming groups like the Nazi’s. It is also why they demanded unconditional surrender from the Germans and Japanese in ww2, they had to admit that they were beaten and there was nothing they could do about it.
[/quote]
Yeah, we all knew that. What you and Zap ignore, however, is that neither the German’s, nor the French, had made any significant advances prior to American involvement. Both sides would have more than likely bled themselves out had the U.S stayed out of the war. German civilians were starving toward the latter stages of the conflict.
The war would have ended without U.S. involvement, with one side standing in the end.
We had no business being in that war.
Dustin
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Sifu wrote:
If you study the history of post world war one Germany you will find that ultra nationalist groups like the national socialists were being formed as early as 1919. The Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler tried to seize control of the state of Bavaria was in November 1923. This was long before the depression of 1928.
Zap brings up a very important point about the German will to fight not being broken at the end of WW1. The Kaiser’s army was still a force to be reckoned with at the end of WW1 and they knew it. It was the Kiel mutiny where the Kaiser’s navy refused to fight the British again that ended it. That is why a lot of disgrunteled former army men came back from the front and started forming groups like the Nazi’s. It is also why they demanded unconditional surrender from the Germans and Japanese in ww2, they had to admit that they were beaten and there was nothing they could do about it.
Yeah, we all knew that. What you and Zap ignore, however, is that neither the German’s, nor the French, had made any significant advances prior to American involvement. Both sides would have more than likely bled themselves out had the U.S stayed out of the war. German civilians were starving toward the latter stages of the conflict.
The war would have ended without U.S. involvement, with one side standing in the end.
We had no business being in that war.
Dustin
[/quote]
I think, and this is just a guess, that if America had not entered WW1, Germany would have won and … then probably no WW2. Which among a VAST array of other things could possibley mean no jets, atom bombs, various medical advances…or at least the technology would not be as advanced. Again, possibly. It would make a good History channel series…
[quote]hedo wrote:
Then stay in the basement. Nobody will hurt you there.
[/quote]
For what it’s worth, I am not worried about it and never have been. It’s just too bad so many more innocent people are going to have to die in the battle of ideas.
[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
I wonder if some of you people, when you get termites in your home, decide the situation is hopeless. Since no matter how many you kill, more will be born in their place. Better to just let them eat your house. Or maybe negotiate with them?[/quote]
Not true, we don’t kill termites because we are afraid of them. We kill them because they do damage to our property. Termite are manageable because they typically only follow one plan of attact – they eat us out of house and home. When we kill these termites their little one’s aren’t going grow up and become America haters.
Ideological warfare isn’t that cut and dry.
[quote]
Or maybe feel guilty. After all, that’s their wood you’re using for your home!!! You can’t fault them for destroying it! It’s all your fault![/quote]
No it isn’t their fault. Termites are just doing what they do. But as I state earlier, this analogy doesn’t work.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
Then stay in the basement. Nobody will hurt you there.
For what it’s worth, I am not worried about it and never have been. It’s just too bad so many more innocent people are going to have to die in the battle of ideas.[/quote]
So what ideas are we battling over?
[quote]Dustin wrote:
I always get a chuckle out of the chest thumping from people who didn’t fight in WWII, yet feel the need to say, “we saved Europe from evil”, like they had anything to do with it.
Also, since when is Orion a Nazi and why are Americans so obsessed over Nazis and Hitler? Can we have a historical debate without the aforementioned?
Dustin[/quote]
Orion betrayed his nazi leanings when he suggested that America was the bad guy in WW2 for supplying Britain and Russia with weapons that prevented the Germans from ending the war victoriously two years earlier.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
So what ideas are we battling over?[/quote]
In the battle of ideas the ideas in question do not matter; what matters is, “We’re right and they’re wrong.”
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Sifu wrote:
If you study the history of post world war one Germany you will find that ultra nationalist groups like the national socialists were being formed as early as 1919. The Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler tried to seize control of the state of Bavaria was in November 1923. This was long before the depression of 1928.
Zap brings up a very important point about the German will to fight not being broken at the end of WW1. The Kaiser’s army was still a force to be reckoned with at the end of WW1 and they knew it. It was the Kiel mutiny where the Kaiser’s navy refused to fight the British again that ended it. That is why a lot of disgrunteled former army men came back from the front and started forming groups like the Nazi’s. It is also why they demanded unconditional surrender from the Germans and Japanese in ww2, they had to admit that they were beaten and there was nothing they could do about it.
Yeah, we all knew that. What you and Zap ignore, however, is that neither the German’s, nor the French, had made any significant advances prior to American involvement. Both sides would have more than likely bled themselves out had the U.S stayed out of the war. German civilians were starving toward the latter stages of the conflict.
The war would have ended without U.S. involvement, with one side standing in the end.
We had no business being in that war.
Dustin
[/quote]
You don’t know the history. The Germans sent a man named Lennon into a country called Russia to instigate a revolution that took Russia out of the war.
This allowed the Germans to pull over a million combat veterans off of the eastern front and throw them at the French and British in the west. This surge of fresh troops finally ended the stalemate in the west and gave the Germans the upper hand.
In desperation the French and British finally caved in to American demands that the American army in France must fight under the command of American officers. That was when the American army was finally put into the fight reversing the tide of war back in favor of the allies.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Dustin wrote:
I always get a chuckle out of the chest thumping from people who didn’t fight in WWII, yet feel the need to say, “we saved Europe from evil”, like they had anything to do with it.
Also, since when is Orion a Nazi and why are Americans so obsessed over Nazis and Hitler? Can we have a historical debate without the aforementioned?
Dustin
Orion betrayed his nazi leanings when he suggested that America was the bad guy in WW2 for supplying Britain and Russia with weapons that prevented the Germans from ending the war victoriously two years earlier. [/quote]
Tsk, tsk, tsk, I was talking about WWI.
That would have been obvious if one had gone to the trouble of finding out when the Russian revolution actually happened.
If you guess during WWI, you are correct.
Interestingly the war could have been over 1916 when the successor to the Austrian crown was willing to sign a separate peace agreement. However, with the hope of America joining in on the side of France and GB that proposal was doomed from the start.
Therefore the Russian revolution, the revolutions in Austria and Germany, the treaty of Versailles and St Germain and WWII, Hitler, Stalin, millions of people dead.
Does that absolve all Germans and Russians from their sins?
Of course not.
Would it have been better if Wilson had not dragged the US kicking and screaming into this crusade to spread democracy?
Absolutely.
Has America learned from this mistake?
Apparently not.
[quote]btm62 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Sifu wrote:
If you study the history of post world war one Germany you will find that ultra nationalist groups like the national socialists were being formed as early as 1919. The Beer Hall Putsch where Hitler tried to seize control of the state of Bavaria was in November 1923. This was long before the depression of 1928.
Zap brings up a very important point about the German will to fight not being broken at the end of WW1. The Kaiser’s army was still a force to be reckoned with at the end of WW1 and they knew it. It was the Kiel mutiny where the Kaiser’s navy refused to fight the British again that ended it. That is why a lot of disgrunteled former army men came back from the front and started forming groups like the Nazi’s. It is also why they demanded unconditional surrender from the Germans and Japanese in ww2, they had to admit that they were beaten and there was nothing they could do about it.
Yeah, we all knew that. What you and Zap ignore, however, is that neither the German’s, nor the French, had made any significant advances prior to American involvement. Both sides would have more than likely bled themselves out had the U.S stayed out of the war. German civilians were starving toward the latter stages of the conflict.
The war would have ended without U.S. involvement, with one side standing in the end.
We had no business being in that war.
Dustin
I think, and this is just a guess, that if America had not entered WW1, Germany would have won and … then probably no WW2. Which among a VAST array of other things could possibley mean no jets, atom bombs, various medical advances…or at least the technology would not be as advanced. Again, possibly. It would make a good History channel series…
[/quote]
Actually much of the required technology for jets was available before or during world war one. The British were putting axial flow steam turbines in their warships before world war one. The only hold up for producing axial flow jet engines would have been high temperature metallurgy which was a problem even in WW2 for the German me262 that is why they were prone to engine fires.
The turbocharger was patented in 1905. A centrifugal jet engine is a turbocharger with a combustion chamber put where an engine usually would be. Centrifugal jets don’t require high temperature metallurgy, that is why the British giving the Russians a centrifugal jet engine at the end of WW2 was such a major screw up. The Russians didn’t have the metallurgy to copy captured German axial flow jet engines, but they did have the ability to copy the British centrifugal jets to use in the MIG 15.
The history channel did cover some of this already by the way. They said that they might have had jets as early as 1920 if somebody had realised that they could put a combustion chamber on a turbocharger and get a lot of thrust. Jet propulsion would not have been a new idea by then, Benjamin Franklin had tried to build a jet powered boat long before then.
Einstein came up with e=mc2 in 1905. The Germans were using chemical weapons in WW1 so there would have been an interst in developing something even more potent.
A couple more years of WW1 could have been really scary.
[quote]orion wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Dustin wrote:
I always get a chuckle out of the chest thumping from people who didn’t fight in WWII, yet feel the need to say, “we saved Europe from evil”, like they had anything to do with it.
Also, since when is Orion a Nazi and why are Americans so obsessed over Nazis and Hitler? Can we have a historical debate without the aforementioned?
Dustin
Orion betrayed his nazi leanings when he suggested that America was the bad guy in WW2 for supplying Britain and Russia with weapons that prevented the Germans from ending the war victoriously two years earlier.
Tsk, tsk, tsk, I was talking about WWI.
That would have been obvious if one had gone to the trouble of finding out when the Russian revolution actually happened.
If you guess during WWI, you are correct.
Interestingly the war could have been over 1916 when the successor to the Austrian crown was willing to sign a separate peace agreement. However, with the hope of America joining in on the side of France and GB that proposal was doomed from the start.
Therefore the Russian revolution, the revolutions in Austria and Germany, the treaty of Versailles and St Germain and WWII, Hitler, Stalin, millions of people dead.
Does that absolve all Germans and Russians from their sins?
Of course not.
Would it have been better if Wilson had not dragged the US kicking and screaming into this crusade to spread democracy?
Absolutely.
Has America learned from this mistake?
Apparently not.
[/quote]
Oh you were referring to WW1. In that case maybe you aren’t a nazi, enschuldegung.
If the US hadn’t gotten into WW1 and the Kaiser had won I don’t think the world would be a better place with all of europe under an absolute monarchy. I don’t think the world would be a better place with two of it’s greatest democracies (Britain and France) turned into dictatorships.
What would have been the fate of Britain and Frances colonies? I don’t think the kaiser would have passed up a prize like that. I don’t think independence movements in places like India would have been allowed. In fact I think the kaiser’s army would have put down any major revolt with chemical weapons and killed millions.
The British and French both had colonies in South America and the British owned Canada. America would not have been safe with the kaisers army armed with WMD in Canada. And any attempt to lay claim to colonies in South America would have been a direct challenge to the Monroe doctrine.
So you are very wrong Orion the world would not have been better off with the kaiser winning WW1. America did do what was best for the rest of the world and it did make the world safe for democracy. India would not be a democratic independent state if the kaiser won. Europe would not be democratic if the kaiser won. Eventually the kaiser would have come into conflict with the US under circumstances where America would have been a serious underdog.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Oh but it was, especially the second to last sentence.
[/quote]
I’m still not convinced. Usually it is not a good idea to show ones ignorance of history to someone that is much better versed in it…in this regard I am speaking of orion and not myself – in a non-native language, might I add.
When you can coherently form a sentence in German then you can make fun.
You guys are a bunch of tools. When will you realize that orion is one of the good?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Natural Nate wrote:
I wonder if some of you people, when you get termites in your home, decide the situation is hopeless.
Termites are just doing what they do. But as I state earlier, this analogy doesn’t work.[/quote]
It does, if you take it on the same level as HH’s cockroaches.
And from other posts by Nate (e.g: “sand shithole-loving”, etc) I have a feeling that’s what he was after.
Although, as far as racism is concerned, one of Sifu’s posts makes the “termite” analogy seem like a compliment.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
As for me, well, I’m quite fluent in the beautiful and complex language of Japanese, not some low-class, guttural, I’m-about-to-spit-a-hocker-sounding language like German.
[/quote]
Actually, English is more guttural than German; in fact, French is even more guttural.
As for Japanese, I agree, it is only complex in that it is a very subtle language; beautiful, nonetheless.
German is not a Romance language. And English is one of the most difficult.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
As for Japanese, I agree, it is only complex in that it is a very subtle language;
This enlightened statement is based on your own fluency, I assume?
[/quote]
No, I am barely fluent in English; I have attempted and am still currently attempting to learn Japanese.
I have an obsession with languages; a love/hate thing, really – probably because I am looking for better ways to convey meaning.