Al Qaeda Just Attacked Egypt, Why?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
Damici, great posts bro! Zap, to say the radical muslims want world domination is asinine. Like Damici said they want to live by their religion and philosophy in their lands without interference by others.

Elk, once again we disagree. Conquerors tend not to stop until someone stops them.

All Hitler wanted was the Sudetenland. And Czechoslovakia. And Poland. And Yugoslavia. And Russia. And France. And Belgium. And Luxembourg. And England.

Basically I do not trust the intentions of those that fly airplanes into buildings.[/quote]

Zap, you don’t trust people that fly planes into buildings? Then why are we still allied with a Gov. whose people flew those planes into our buildings and who foster a situation where people of this ideology grow?

“Conquerors tend not to stop until someone stops them.”

Coudn’t the same be said of us in this situation. Don’t you think many people in the world are viewing us as the conquerors right now?

Zap, I agree, but their efforts right now do not come anywhere close to making them “conquerers” of any sort. They view us (somewhat understandably) as conquerers, for obvious reasons. As a matter of fact, Bin Laden defines his jihad as a defensive jihad (their are apparently 2 kinds of jihad in Islam: offensive and defensive – again, the book Imperial Hubris is very educational on all this), and he thus states the main reason for his goals as being to drive foreign occupiers AND foreign influence from Muslim lands. If he ever got his way (which he won’t), would he THEN go offensive, once that was achieved? Who knows. He very well might, but it’s so far from relevant right now . . . .

The point is that he wouldn’t have a mass (and I do mean MASS) following right now if it weren’t for the 3 or 4 main issues that I’ve mentioned previously. If he merely wanted to go offensive and take over the world he would have, like, 5 or 6 followers.

Damici,

“But please LEARN 1-3, know them and remember them. They don’t just “hate us for our freedoms” (said with a strong redneck accent and a front tooth missing).”

Exactly wrong, despite your weak caricature.

Sharia law is the opposite of democratic constitutionalism, and by their mouths they say that a system of self-government is contrary to their version of Islam.

Elk,

“Zap, to say the radical muslims want world domination is asinine. Like Damici said they want to live by their religion and philosophy in their lands without interference by others.”

Get educated, for Christ’s sake. The Muslim empire wasn’t created by virtue of them wanting to just live within their boundaries according to their religious preferences, just tending to their own gardens.

OBL has specifically referenced a grievance that Spain was taken from he and his kind. The Islamists want the old 7th century caliphate back - which was expanded through jihad.

Damici,

“I kind of doubt they’d have a vibrant recruiting base or many, if any, followers for their “jihad to take over the world” in that case.”

Sure they would. Nothing in Western foreign policy creates gender apartheid, tribalism, a rejection of modernity, or a rejection of liberal and secular government - all of which are the basis for Islamism.

The culture is broken, and until it is fixed - by internal means - no amount of cuddling with the enemy or reflexively blaming the Western capitalists will do anything to quell this fascist movement within Islam.

Zap, you are worried about world domination by al qaeda?

As Damici said that isn’t in the realm of possibility! They wouldn’t have the capability to overthrow the world. Let’s say that they reached their goal of getting us out of their lands. I believe they would have years of internal struggle in the Arab world trying hash out how and who is going to rule which would keep them occupied for again many years.

Also, even if they did get along with each other immediately they don’t have the convential military power to start a campaign of world domination!

All you can do to guard against the terrorist threat is to have top notch Intel and covertly wax cells throughout the world by any means possible, whether it’s a special ops team or a cruise missile.

Giving them a huge rallying cause like in Iraq just adds fuel to the fire.

We could instill terror in their mind set when they never know when or where one of our teams is going to hit them like a flash or a cruise missile is going to wipe out one of their camps.

Look at all of the money that has been poured into Iraq. Think if those billions of dollars would have been spent on strengthening our border security and Intel means.

But, no instead we are in quagmire that is not going to have a pretty end and acts as a rallying cry for jihadists.

Thunderbolt23,

Points (1.), (2.) and (3.) that I made were exactly right – I’d like to hear you dispute them.

You’re right about Sharia law being the exact opposite of democaracy. Where in the hell did I ever say it had anything to do with democracy? Sharia law is a theoracy, and a pretty brutal one at that. What does any of that have to do with those 3 points that I made? Precisely nothing. Those 3 points remain, and they are accurate.

Reading comprehension, anyone?

Elk,

“Then why are we still allied with a Gov. whose people flew those planes into our buildings and who foster a situation where people of this ideology grow?”

I am in agreement. So do you suggest that we immediatley stop buying our oil from Saudi Arabia? Are you ready to buckle down and suffer the inevitable trade-offs that come with not trading with Arab nations - the oil shock? The unemployment surge?

Talk is cheap, Elk - you ready to dig deep?

“Coudn’t the same be said of us in this situation. Don’t you think many people in the world are viewing us as the conquerors right now?”

Well, since we aren’t conquerors, no, but the perception is out there that we are - but what is the alternative? Don’t do anything for fear of hurting someone’s feelings, even if they are wrong about what they feel?

That’s no way to run a foreign policy. That also no way to protect a nation.

From where I sit it looks like the Muslim world is turning on Bin Laden and his ilk. No question the Muslim world does not want to be occupied and ruled by the US, but poll after poll indicates the Iraqi people do want our soldiers in Iraq at least until the situation is stabilized.

Our being in the Middle East is likely creating enemies. It is also creating allies.

The more these terrorists kill Muslims the more that Muslims see these extremists are full of shit.

This is going to be a long war. We will win if if we stay the course.

Being “allied with a government whose people flew planes into our buildings” is a bit of a (massive) misrepresentation. Those people who flew the planes into our buildings (mostly Saudis) would also have loved nothing more than to bring down the Saudi regime. Because an individual (the terrorists, in this case) is from a country does not mean that he or she represents that country’s government. Huge difference. The jihadists LOATHE the Saudi regime. They see the al-Sauds as apostate, rich, whoring, westernized, un-Islamic tyrants who do little for their people yet live like kings – all of which is true.

That being said, the Saudi rulers have been mealy-mouthed and two-faced at best with regard to taking on the extremists in their midst, partially due to fear and partially due to the extremists’ popularity within Saudi Arabia, so they tried to buy them off, pay them protection money, let it slide, etc. They seem to have become a bit more aggressive toward them as of late, but their commitment to fighting terror remains to be seen – it has a long, long way to go.

Damici,

I have a few minutes, so…

“1.) Our blind, unbending support for Israel, come hell or highwater, no matter what. We arm Israel and fund them (to the tune of $300 billion per year) because of a strong pro-Israel/Jewish voting and lobbying block in the U.S., despite the fact that they are flat out sitting on someone else’s land, and have been for decades.”

First, as to Israel’s sitting on ‘someone else’s land’, Israel is an internationally recognized nation with formal boundaries. If you think that Israel isn’t legitimate, take it up with the UN, which fully recognizes Israel as a legitimate nation-state right where it is.

Second, we give Israel billions - any idea how much we give Jordan and Egypt, two Arab countries? (Hint: Egypt has just tipped over the $50 billion - that’s billion - mark). So, yes, we give tons of money to Jews - and to Arabs, too. And we have done more than just send checks - witness our militray adventures on behalf of saving Muslims across the globe.

So your dangerously anti-Semitic rant cherrypicks preferable data to the exclusion of information that harms your case. No one pretends that the US and Israel aren’t allies, but we are not allies at Muslims’ expense. I think we are Israel’s allies at the expense of radical Muslims fundamentalists, and I would not have it any other way.

Third, as for the Jewish lobby: Hitler said the same thing. Great company to be in.

“2.) Prior to 9/11, our presence (i.e. having a military base) in Saudi Arabia, their so-called “sacred soil,” even though it isn’t really sacred soil (only Mecca and Medina are), but the jihadists don’t and didn’t like our being there regardless. Now you can extend this to include our occupation of Iraq, a Muslim nation. (They’re not too happy about our presence in Afghanistan either, but they brought that one on themselves, clear as day).”

First, we had a Persian Gulf presence since the end of WWII in order to prevent Communist penetration into the world’s oil supply. That was done by invitation. I personally have soured on the relationship, and the sooner we end it, the better in my view - but it is foolish to argue that the US tromped in like conquerors without permission. Was it a devil’s deal? You bet, but the alternative was letting the USSR have open season on the Persian Gulf, to which, I say, nope.

Second, you have a weird argument - you say that the Islamists believe something that isn’t true (about the Holy Land). And? We should kowtow to them even though, by your own admission, they have it wrong? Why is there all this ‘good faith’ in what the Islamists believe and want?

Third, I don’t doubt that Islamists are pissed about Iraq - so what? The should be pissed. We are bringing the fight they want in our cities into their backyward. We are defining the parameters of war - of course they don’t like it. Now read this carefully, as it is important: the measure of the Iraq war and its value does not rest on the Islamists’ opinion of it.

“3.) Our support for (and keeping in power of) corrupt, oppressive and secular (non-Islamic) regimes in the Middle East: the al-Saud family in Saudi Arabia (most of all), Mubarek in Egypt, Abdullah in Jordan, the rulers of Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, the U.A.E., etc., etc. These regimes generally rule over nations where most of the people are generally poor while the leaders themselves are filthy, filthy rich. They have shitty economies and awful human rights records with limited freedoms. But most of all, they’re not fundamentalist Islamic regimes, i.e. they don’t rule by Sharia law, the way the Taleban did. (The jihadists considered the Taleban to be the only “truly” Islamic regime on earth).”

Firstly, I agree in part. We need to avoid partnering up with unsavory nations, it is true. But the so-called class disparity is inescapable in a system of government that permits an all-powerful autocrat. Islamic governments tend to go this way and always have - hence there is no real real democracy in Arab nations (unless you count Turkey).

Second, you have an implausible argument - that these Islamists actually think the Taliban-style government is better than the current autocrats. So, it follows that what the Islamists want is a government essentially of even more tyranny than the current crop, since the current Arab autocrats, though far from perfect, have a better human rights record and general prosperity for its people than did the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Hmmm. So by that rationale, the ‘oppressed’ poor and filthy Arabs you refer to aren’t revolting because they want more freedom or rights, to which most Westerners could legitimately be sympathetic - they actually think that their current governments are too liberal and prefer Sharia law. It’s not more rights they want, but fewer. It’s not more property rights and thus a better economy, it’s less and a weaker, more archaic economy.

So we don’t have an uprising of people against tyrants wanting more freedom, but people wanting a new order of Taliban. It is a brand of fascism, and it should be dealt with in the only way that is effective with fascism - annhiliation. That annhiliation doesn’t have to come from a series of missile strikes, of course - more than anything, it must come from the liberal Muslims that reject Islamism.

But as self-declared enemies of the West, it is a recipe for disaster to try and ‘understand’ grievances that aren’t legitimate or nourished by some sense of decency. There are many groups of poor, disenfranchised groups of people around the world - and, in fairness, some of the West’s policies has made their lot in life worse. But only Sunni Muslims feel like they have the privilege of mass-murdering thousands of innocent civilians by surprise. You materialist-determinist theory fails because the non-Arab poor of the world do not feel entitled to bring death and destruction that same way as Islamists. So, no sympathy on that cause.

Whew. I’m spent.

Damici,

“You’re right about Sharia law being the exact opposite of democaracy. Where in the hell did I ever say it had anything to do with democracy?”

You said they don’t hate us because of our freedome. To wit, sure they do - democracy is a free man’s government, the civic extension of a free person being able to participate in his rule of law, rather than having his rule of law handed down to him by a a council on high.

That is the opposite of Sharia law. You can’t enjoy ‘freedom’ if you have a Taliban as your ruler.

Therefore, the Islamists despise freedom - the freedom to live outside of Sharia law: be homosexual, be a glutton, play Grand Theft Auto, charge interest when you loan money, buy a Green Day CD.

Freedom leads to acting outside the strictures of Sharia, and it is therefore the opposite of Sharia. Therefore, Islamists hate freedom - it undermines the kind of society they think is right and just under Islam.

You getting all this? Maybe you should get a pad and pen.

“Sharia law is a theoracy, and a pretty brutal one at that. What does any of that have to do with those 3 points that I made? Precisely nothing. Those 3 points remain, and they are accurate.”

See above.

“Reading comprehension, anyone?”

Heh, kids can be so cute at this age.

Thunderbolt23,

I’ll reply point-by-point later, when I have the time, but I refer you to my post a few posts back in which I specifically stated that you should NOT misunderstand me – I am NOT saying either that all of the jihadists’ arguments/gripes are logical NOR that we should give them what they want, regardless. I am NOT saying any such thing. I am merely pointing out what their gripes ARE. It is indisputable that these ARE there gripes – but not necessarily that they’re right to HAVE these gripes. (In some cases yes, in some cases no).

More later . . .

[quote]Damici wrote:
Being “allied with a government whose people flew planes into our buildings” is a bit of a (massive) misrepresentation. Those people who flew the planes into our buildings (mostly Saudis) would also have loved nothing more than to bring down the Saudi regime. Because an individual (the terrorists, in this case) is from a country does not mean that he or she represents that country’s government. Huge difference. The jihadists LOATHE the Saudi regime. They see the al-Sauds as apostate, rich, whoring, westernized, un-Islamic tyrants who do little for their people yet live like kings – all of which is true.

That being said, the Saudi rulers have been mealy-mouthed and two-faced at best with regard to taking on the extremists in their midst, partially due to fear and partially due to the extremists’ popularity within Saudi Arabia, so they tried to buy them off, pay them protection money, let it slide, etc. They seem to have become a bit more aggressive toward them as of late, but their commitment to fighting terror remains to be seen – it has a long, long way to go.[/quote]

Damici, I fully understand and agree that the perpetrators of 9/11 hate the Saudi rulers as well, but like you stated the conditions there grow these radicals and the ruling class don’t exactly, as you pointed out, take steps to stop this. I

To me the bottom line is which Vietnam, then Afghanistan, and now Iraq, have taught those who care to learn from history, is that even with massive superior firepower unless you are ready to wipe out an entire population you can’t sustain an occupation forever.

Thunder you ask me if I am ready to face the ramifications of some type of action into Saudi Arabia. Are you ready to face the continuing deaths of US forces in a situation that may degenerate even more with no success in the initial objective.

There was a better way to face the threat of jihadists which I fully agree exists! We could have brough our forces to bear in a much more productive manner!

This type of advice was ignored by the current admin. because they couldn’t wait, couldn’t show patience, couldn’t exercise good judgement, with the most precious commodity we have our American servicemen and women.

Damici,

“I am NOT saying either that all of the jihadists’ arguments/gripes are logical NOR that we should give them what they want, regardless. I am NOT saying any such thing. I am merely pointing out what their gripes ARE.”

I think that is fair, and you have elucidated some Islamist points clearly - although I have to disagree that many people seem not to know what those complaints are.

“It is indisputable that these ARE there gripes – but not necessarily that they’re right to HAVE these gripes. (In some cases yes, in some cases no).”

Ok, I see your point - and let me be clear that I was going after the points made, and I didn’t necessarily think you were of the same mind of an Islamist. But thanks for clearing that up.

The biggest point - and I may not have expressed it clearly - is that not only are Islamist complaints refuted in a broader context, no one cares about the legitimacy of your complaints if you mass murder in the name of them.

Just so everybody knows, the Turks are not Arabs. The Turks descend from Turkomen groups (an Indo-European people) who converted to Islam. The are however one of the very rare secular democracies in the Moslem world.

Good God, Thunderbolt . . .

Let me see if I can explain more clearly for you: They’re NOT angry at us because we, here in the good ole’ US of A, have all of our nice freedoms of being able to vote, and speak freely, and practice other religions, and watch porn, and our women can drive. In and of itself, THEY WOULDN’T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHAT WE DO OVER HERE. What happens in Wisconsin/New York/Texas is of NO interest to them WHATSOEVER. So no, they don’t hate US because WE’RE free. Capice?

NOW, the system that THEY (the jihadists) would like to install in THEIR lands, what Bin Laden believes are “rightly” “Muslim lands” (which might include part of modern-day Spain . . . I’m not sure exactly how far back he goes in his thinking), would NOT be a democracy. It would be Sharia law, i.e. a fascist theocracy where no one could vote, women had to wear veils/burkas, there was no freedom to practice other religions or to watch porn, etc.

Remember the Islamic caliphate I referenced that Bin Laden would like to create, uniting what he considers historically (in all his lunacy) to be rightly “Muslim lands?” Well THAT portion of the world is one in which he’d like to install this theocracy.

AGAIN: if we (the U.S.A.) werent’ supporting Israel, “occupying” (in their eyes, anyway) “Muslim” lands and supporting shitty-ass rulers who they view as un-Islamic (and certainly despotic and not helpful to their people), whish is NOT realistic and NOT what I’m calling for (not regarding all 3 points, anyway), THEN they would not have been going out of their wayt to attack us. UNDERSTAND? COMPRENDE? CAPICE? If we weren’t affecting their side of the world in any way, they wouldn’t CARE what we do in Wisconsin or what freedoms we enjoy here, i.e. they don’t “hate us for our freedom.”

They hate us because of our support for Israel, our presence on/occupation of their lands, our support for the shitty regimes in their countries, and a few wacky historical things that go so far back it’s laughable, like the Crusades.

Wanting to install a non-free regime in THEIR land does NOT equal “hating us for our freedoms.” OK?

Have we gotten that one out of the way?

[quote]Damici wrote:
Thunderbolt23,

I’ll reply point-by-point later, when I have the time, but I refer you to my post a few posts back in which I specifically stated that you should NOT misunderstand me – I am NOT saying either that all of the jihadists’ arguments/gripes are logical NOR that we should give them what they want, regardless. I am NOT saying any such thing. I am merely pointing out what their gripes ARE. It is indisputable that these ARE there gripes – but not necessarily that they’re right to HAVE these gripes. (In some cases yes, in some cases no).

More later . . .[/quote]

Damici and T-bolt, it looks to me like you two agree a lot more than you disagree on this stuff.

The level of information you are posting is higher than the usual stuff that is posted here.

Please don’t let this turn into a pissing match.

Elk,

I agree in large part with what you’re saying but disagree with the idea that we should go to war with Saudi Arabia. Nevertheless, I’ve got enough writing on my hands trying to get Thunderbolt to understand what Bin Laden’s gripes are, so I don’t want to go off on a tangent about the wisdom, or lack thereof, of certain wars/military campaigns. Their whole hatred of us started before we invaded either Iraq or Arghanistan, let’s remember, and the key causes of that have not changed. (Remember, Sept. 11th was waaaaaay back, in 2001)!

Thunderbolt,

Your last post posted before my last post did, so sorry if the tenor of my last post was a bit harsh. I’m glad to see that you hear what I’m saying. I see your point, and probably disagree strongly on some fronts – like support for Israel. Which, by the way, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with being anti-semitic or having anything against Jews. Yes, the U.N. established the state of Israel. But they’ve also passed resolution after resolution after resolution since then stating that Israel should, at the very least, withdraw back to the 1967 borders.

There’s no legal justification, EVEN by U.N. standards, for them to be occupying all the land that they’ve been occupying for decades (beyond those borders). And in MY mind, the idea of the U.N. giving them a “state” in the middle of someone else’s home, was to begin with an assinine idea. This has nothing to do with them being Jewish – it wouldn’t matter if the were Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Martians or Smurfs.

How would you like it if the U.N. rules that, because the Croats were badly persecuted for many years by the Serbs (and maybe they had a strong affinity for New York State), the U.N. ruled that New York State now belonged to the Croats, and it was now Croat-Land West, and all the Americans living in New York State now had to pack up and live elsewhere (and were subsequently treated like shit along the way in various ways)? It just makes zero(0) Z-E-R-O sense.

But at the very, VERY least, which is all I would expect or hope for at this point, they need to pull back COMPLETELY to the '67 borders. (But don’t be fooled into thinking that this will pacify the Islamists; it won’t).