'Affirmative Consent' Policies

Off Topic
41

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
I’ve been waiting for someone to post something like this so I could link to this story. It’s beyond horrifying:

  • Amherst College expels male student for raping female student while he was blacked out. Yes, he was blacked out. And she performed oral sex on him while he was blacked out. But because he couldn’t prove that the encounter was consensual (because he was blacked out, duh), he’s guilty of rape.

Got that?
[/quote]

Perhaps the disconnect is in our understandings of “blacked out.” I assume you are interpreting it as something like “passed out,” or incoherent. I don’t know how Amherst or the defendant interpret the term, but “black out drunk” typically refers only to an inability to form memories while in the state. While black out drunk, a person may be coherent and capable of consenting to sex, and may be legally responsible for his or her decisions. If this is what “blacked out” means in this context, he is trying to use an amnesia defense. He isn’t saying that he was actually the victim of an assault.

To put it another way: occasionally you hear of women who say they have been raped because they were black out drunk and have no memory of consenting, despite the fact that they were awake, coherent, and enthusiastic. In that case, whether or not they remember should be legally irrelevant. The question is whether they had the capacity to consent at the time and whether they did, in fact, consent.

42

Rape is the only crime that is based on a concept such as consent, where the crime is only committed based on how somebody felt about it at the time (and potentially how somebody else thought they felt about it, at the time). Anciently, there were other societal concerns to be considered, but as we have moved to a basic standard where anything is legal between consenting adults in private, consent is the only remaining yardstick.

Because of this I do think that the definition of rape needs to be revisited, but not at all in the way that the article in the OP suggests. Rape should require the use of violence or force, the threat of such, or mental incapacitation. Lest you think this extreme, consider that in heterosexual situations, this is essentially the current effective situation with regards to men.

Personally, I do think there is a fundamental value of female sexual purity. However, it’s legal folly to value a woman’s sexual purity more than she herself does. Either society needs to acknowledge and institutionalize sexual asymmetry or it needs to treat situations of dubious consent symmetrically. Insofar as our legal system is not well designed or equipped to handle such situations, the rational solution is to treat them as non-legal matters.

43

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Rape is the only crime that is based on a concept such as consent . . .[/quote]

This statement is false. If I leave my keys in my car, and you get in and drive it off, my consent (or lack thereof) is what makes it the crime of theft/larceny or not.

44

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Rape is the only crime that is based on a concept such as consent . . .[/quote]

This statement is false. If I leave my keys in my car, and you get in and drive it off, my consent (or lack thereof) is what makes it the crime of theft/larceny or not. [/quote]

Agree. Assault is also based on consent, at least where I live. It’s written right into the statute. The application of force without consent or words to that effect.

2 guys get into a consensual fight, no assault has occurred. One guy starts coming out the worse for it and withdraws his consent and the other guy continues, assault.

Consent is actually a pretty important legal concept.

45

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Because of this I do think that the definition of rape needs to be revisited, but not at all in the way that the article in the OP suggests. Rape should require the use of violence or force, the threat of such, or mental incapacitation. Lest you think this extreme, consider that in heterosexual situations, this is essentially the current effective situation with regards to men.
[/quote]

For the most part, this is how rape is actually prosecuted in a court of law. Prosecutors in the US do not generally try to charge men (or women) for having sex with someone who didn’t say the magic words or meet some standard of enthusiasm.

The problem, in my opinion, is that feminists have co-opted a legal term and started to redefine it. For some feminists, “coercion” is saying “I will leave you if you don’t have sex with me.” To a prosecutor, coercion is saying “I will kill you or your child if you don’t have sex with me.” To some feminists, women have no duty to remove themselves from sexual situations or say no to advances, because you can never tell how a victim “reacts in the moment.” I am not a lawyer, but what I’ve read from prosecutors is that, for a man to actually be convicted, there usually has to be a clear attempt on her part to stop the act (unless she is incapacitated). A lot of what some feminists call rape is what other people call being an asshole. If a man threatens to leave every time he doesn’t get his way sexually, that is manipulative, childish behavior. It is even the kind of behavior that may need social correction. But it isn’t rape.

Feminists need a different vocabulary for rape and sexual assault, or the law does.

The more pressing issue, of course, is the attempt to push this broadened standard onto college campuses, which are certainly not equipped to adjudicate these kinds of disputes.

46

this sort of thing happens all the time…

UVA, Duke lacrosse, Columbia (mattress girl), etc…

mattress girl’s story is quite a trip…

47

the important thing that everyone appears to be missing is that this dude had such good game he can get action when comatose

48

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Rape is the only crime that is based on a concept such as consent . . .[/quote]

This statement is false. If I leave my keys in my car, and you get in and drive it off, my consent (or lack thereof) is what makes it the crime of theft/larceny or not. [/quote]

Agree. Assault is also based on consent, at least where I live. It’s written right into the statute. The application of force without consent or words to that effect.

2 guys get into a consensual fight, no assault has occurred. One guy starts coming out the worse for it and withdraws his consent and the other guy continues, assault.

Consent is actually a pretty important legal concept.[/quote]
Technically, yes. I thought of this as I wrote it. But how often is the defense for car theft or assault consist of, “He asked me to beat the crap out of him,” or “He asked me to take his car and never get it back.” In cases of rape accusations, disputed consent is the heart of the matter when identity is confirmed.

49

[quote]Yogi wrote:
the important thing that everyone appears to be missing is that this dude had such good game he can get action when comatose[/quote]

It’s way more likely that the roommate was jealous of what he and his girlfriend had. Especially if she saw them interacting all the time, while being the girlfriend’s roommate.

Also, since he ended up leaving after she was done, it’s likely he wasn’t so “black out” drunk as is described.

50

[quote]SmilingPolitely wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

I dont even know how to feel about that.

On the one hand I dont appreciate it if someone jumps SmilingPolitely ass first, on the other hand, way to go dude.

They will not respond to reason, or appeals to compassion, but anger, anger is something they understand.

I like it when the female imperative no longer goes unchallenged, when Emma fucking Watson has to disable comments on her Youtube HeforShe nonsense, when Sarkeesian disables comments, these days women have to create response free bubbles or else they get taken to task. [/quote]

Come on, Orion. I would have accepted comments about me being a whore. I would have accepted comments about being an idiot. Hell, I would have accepted a comment that told me to shut up. But he went after the most inane point…that I believe men aren’t also the victim sometimes.

Honestly. Do you really think that is what I was trying to say? That because I didn’t include the exact phrase, “Men cannot understand the powerlessness inherent in having a dick inside you when you don’t want it” that I was implying in any way that men don’t know what fear, pain, trauma and suffering are?

It was a weak argument thrown out in an attempt to discredit me (for reasons I cannot understand) and imply some sort of bias that did not exist in what I wrote. [/quote]

I will ammend my comment then, I do not appreciate it if you are jumped ass first, but his willingness to do it is what matters, he has all the time in the world to fine tune it.

51

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Rape is the only crime that is based on a concept such as consent . . .[/quote]

This statement is false. If I leave my keys in my car, and you get in and drive it off, my consent (or lack thereof) is what makes it the crime of theft/larceny or not. [/quote]

Agree. Assault is also based on consent, at least where I live. It’s written right into the statute. The application of force without consent or words to that effect.

2 guys get into a consensual fight, no assault has occurred. One guy starts coming out the worse for it and withdraws his consent and the other guy continues, assault.

Consent is actually a pretty important legal concept.[/quote]
Technically, yes. I thought of this as I wrote it. But how often is the defense for car theft or assault consist of, “He asked me to beat the crap out of him,” or “He asked me to take his car and never get it back.” In cases of rape accusations, disputed consent is the heart of the matter when identity is confirmed.[/quote]

“He antagonized the fight” or “He told me I could borrow it” are probably fairly common. Obviously in a theft involving a complete stranger that one won’t come up, but you can watch those random peoples’ court shows on daytime TV and see that petty theft between roommates and shit happens all the time and is argued exactly in ways such as that(oh he’s my roommate and he’s let me borrow it before I thought it would be fine).

52

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons. [/quote]

Maybe, I guess. I’m not really in the mood to dig through statistics today. Here’s a couple of quick hits from Wikipedia on the topics.

[quote]
As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control. [/quote]

That’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. I don’t think when a person takes their own life they’re doing it against their own will though. [/quote]
Exactly how many rapes occur in or out of prison is a highly controversial question that suffers from a good objective way to answer it, so you’re right that my statement was overly definitive. But there are analyses that show that men are getting raped in larger numbers than women. Whatever the real numbers may be, female victims of rape get essentially all of the non-joking attention on the subject and that is certainly disproportionate. Moreover, the definition of rape is penetrative in most jurisdictions.

As far as suicide, I agree. But I still think suicide is relevant to a discussion about loss of control. [/quote]

My .02 having been to prison:

Rape happened A LOT. Like, every day. And “snitches get stitches for talking like bitches”, so it was rarely ever reported unless the guys asshole was torn out and he was bleeding on the floor of the shower.

It’s not like it was a secret, either. In one of the housing units I stayed in, there was a notorious rapist who probably had outside help paying off the guards. The guards would transfer a younger inmate into his cell every once in a while. You couldn’t fucking sleep for a the first few nights cuz the kid would scream and cry as he was getting raped repeatedly - even as the guards took count. They didn’t give a shit. Finally someone got sick of the screams and shanked the rapist.

And not all rape had to be violent. “Blood on my knife or shit on my dick” is often rewarded with “whatever you want, just don’t stab me”. And they’d do what they had to do to get by.

Prison rape (at least in the MD DOC back in the early 90’s) was vastly under reported. It was as normal as a trip to the chow hall.

53

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:
Most victims of . . . rape . . . are male.
[/quote]
Really?[/quote]

Ya, I sorta scratched my head too. I’m not real sure how suicide is something that happens to men’s bodies’ against their will either…[/quote]
The answer to your head-scratcher is prisons. [/quote]

Maybe, I guess. I’m not really in the mood to dig through statistics today. Here’s a couple of quick hits from Wikipedia on the topics.

[quote]
As far as suicide, do you think people commit suicide because they feel like the are in control of their lives and what is happening to their bodies? Suicide itself is an expression of control, but more broadly it’s a symptom of a loss of control. [/quote]

That’s certainly an interesting way to look at it. I don’t think when a person takes their own life they’re doing it against their own will though. [/quote]
Exactly how many rapes occur in or out of prison is a highly controversial question that suffers from a good objective way to answer it, so you’re right that my statement was overly definitive. But there are analyses that show that men are getting raped in larger numbers than women. Whatever the real numbers may be, female victims of rape get essentially all of the non-joking attention on the subject and that is certainly disproportionate. Moreover, the definition of rape is penetrative in most jurisdictions.

As far as suicide, I agree. But I still think suicide is relevant to a discussion about loss of control. [/quote]

My .02 having been to prison:

Rape happened A LOT. Like, every day. And “snitches get stitches for talking like bitches”, so it was rarely ever reported unless the guys asshole was torn out and he was bleeding on the floor of the shower.

It’s not like it was a secret, either. In one of the housing units I stayed in, there was a notorious rapist who probably had outside help paying off the guards. The guards would transfer a younger inmate into his cell every once in a while. You couldn’t fucking sleep for a the first few nights cuz the kid would scream and cry as he was getting raped repeatedly - even as the guards took count. They didn’t give a shit. Finally someone got sick of the screams and shanked the rapist.

And not all rape had to be violent. “Blood on my knife or shit on my dick” is often rewarded with “whatever you want, just don’t stab me”. And they’d do what they had to do to get by.

Prison rape (at least in the MD DOC back in the early 90’s) was vastly under reported. It was as normal as a trip to the chow hall.[/quote]

Prison rape, is, in fact, a massive, systemic, and (to a large degree) preventable human rights problem.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/04/stop-prison-rape-now

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/