Abu Ghraib Update

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

Zap wrote:

"If his neighbor is building bombs and he doesn’t squeal on him he is just as guilty when those bombs are used to murder innocents on the street.

He is living in a war zone. Choose sides or get out. Those are the only options.

Of course it is not fair to poor Abdul. He did not ask to be put in this situation. Guess what, life isn’t fair.

The 1500 Kurdish woman and children in the mass grave didn’t do anything wrong. Israeli school kids don’t ask to be murdered by suicide bombers paid for by Saddam Hussien.

I cannot fathom how you can call me ignorant when you clearly are displaying remarkable naivete. Unless of course you are not naive and do understand this and just want to use it to bash the president. (Just like Ted Kennedy)"

I nominate this as one of the top ten posts of the year.

Thanks!!!

JeffR

82

Oh, Zebster, it has been awhile! I find it admirable when you idol worshiping, neocon, never been to war, but love the idea of the other guy fighing, commandos, stick up for each other. It just gets kinda old when you try to smear using your thinly veiled cutesy little comparisons! Always trying to look like the good guy with your insidious attacks. Good day to ya Zeb, we’ll talk more later.

Rangertab, I’m all for roughing up an enemy combatant if it is going to lead to the saving of American lives. The thing is many would have you believe that the abuse was related to that in the hundreds of cases that happened, whether it had anything to do with that or not! I believe that whether or not it was ordered has nothing to do with the fact that there were some sadisitic morally reprehensible poorly trained americans that were getting off beating the hell out of these prisoners. We have sick bastards in our ranks as well.

Cmon Rangertab, you’re an honorable dude, would you sexually humilate a detainee that you knew to know nothing for the enjoyment of it?

You all have a good day talk at you later!

83

Uh, oh, somebody alert the staff! jeffy escaped the day room and is using the hospital computer again. Next thing you know he’s gonna start telling people how huge he is and that he’s a supercop!

84

Hey Elk, first you were an outspoken soldier of the left. Then, you got burned out and stated that you had it with the political forums and we didn’t hear much from you. Now you are back with a vengence! Do I have that right?

Either way, welcome back! You are a fine addition to the “vroom squad.” The fact that Al shades is on your side with many of his “issues” should not deter you in any way from speaking from the heart…your bleeding heart…:slight_smile:

85

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
…

What is it? Initially it was WMD’s but now that it’s spreading democracy should we be treating the receivers of democracy like this?

Get over the Kurdish dead argument already, were not debating the validity of going in to Iraq anymore that has already been done, we’re there. We’re debating how this conflict is being waged now that were in it.

…
[/quote]

You contradict yourself from one paragraph to the next.

First you ask why we went to war and the very next paragraph you say that debate is over.

It is clear that the Hate America crowd wants to use the unfortunate incidents at Abu Ghraib to bash Bush, logic and reason be damned!

Bush and Rummy rightly let the military interrogators take the kid gloves off.

Don’t confuse the tough interrogation going on with some of the ignorant shit we have seen from Abu Ghraib.

A bunch of damn fool national guardsmen from WV took things too far, they were not even questioning these guys, they were just being assholes.

Blame Bush, blame Rummy, blame the school system in WV, blame MTV, blame America! Or maybe we should actually blame the people that did it.

86

Is it fair to say we have two schools of thought here:
(

  1. OK to use whatever means necessary to get information from the enemy (prisoner or combatant)

  2. Not OK to use force to get info from the enemy.

Further the argument also includes how to define the enemy and if the president and sec. of defense knew about it and sanctioned torture.

Finally nobody wants to be lumped in with Al and to be lumped in with him is an insult to the other person.

Think that about covers it hey lads?

My two cents is as follows:

I think it is OK to use force to get a confession if it works. It should be up to the men on the ground to figure out what works. That is most likely what happened in Abu Gharib. I don’t think what I read about constitutes torture, it seemed to be more about humiliation and breaking the spirit of the prisoner.

I remember seeing columns of Iraqi’s passing thru our lines in GW1. In the rear they used to put cloth bags on thier heads before they questioned them. I don’t think anyone thought that was cruel. I think it was to disorient them and scare them before they were questioned. I have no doubt the Iraqi’s would have done much worse.

I don’t think anyone outside of Iraq knew about the activities at the prison. If they did I doubt it could stay secret for long. If the executive branch did know about it ,I doubt they assumed it was torture. I generally support their actions and that is certainly a partisan statement on my part. As I stated before I think this is media driven more then anything else.

It is difficult to define the enemy in the war on terror. Again, I say it is best left to the men on the ground to determine who to arrest and detain. The further removed the less valuable your perspective is on the matter. But you have to back them up when they do so. I don’t think they have the time to fool around arresting the innocent.

87

Zeby, you out spoken soldier of the lost, you were MIA from your incessent stalking of Vroom for awhile as well. Needed a break to? You can stick me with Vroom anyday, I take that to be a compliment and an honor to be included with a guy like that. Al may be an arrogant little shit who’s a little misguided, but he’s smarter then many here. Any way Zeb, I have got work to do talk to you later, have a good day!

88

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:

…

Rangertab, I’m all for roughing up an enemy combatant if it is going to lead to the saving of American lives. The thing is many would have you believe that the abuse was related to that in the hundreds of cases that happened, whether it had anything to do with that or not! I believe that whether or not it was ordered has nothing to do with the fact that there were some sadisitic morally reprehensible poorly trained americans that were getting off beating the hell out of these prisoners. We have sick bastards in our ranks as well.
…
[/quote]

Elk,

I think you’re exactly right. Each case needs to be examined on an individual basis, before either exoneration or blame can be handed down. And I think that’s what’s been happening.

BTW, I also agree on the “sick bastard” comment – it seems obvious from the Abu Ghraib prosecutions to this point. I think it stems from the problems we have stateside with prisoner/guard relations, and my guess that there is a high likeliehood that anyone with prison guard experience stateside who ended up over there as an enlisted was given prison-guard duty – and not necessarily a lot of extra training, given their backgrounds. I don’t know about you, but I know of some very-much worse incidents that have been reported to have occurred right here in the USA in terms of prisoner abuse by guards.

They probably handed them big, complex legal manuals detailing official military policy and sent them on their way – but how much would you wager that they 1) Didn’t read them; or at least 2) Didn’t dissect the legalese to discern the boundaries of acceptable conduct?

I think this is the heart of what Maj. Gen. Taguba’s report found: Not enough supervision from the commanding officers at the prisons. That is where the system largely broke down, and that is why the report aimed its criticism squarely at Karpinski.

89

Hedo,

Nice post.

Hell, it doesn’t matter if you and I are ever in complete agreement on anything, its nice just to see what people think and how they support their viewpoint.

I wish more of the crazy right would at least discuss issues and talk about the topics at hand.

Rangertab,

Glad to see you back on the boards. It means you are still safe! Again, though I don’t always agree with everything you say I appreciate your ground level viewpoint and I certainly respect it.

Zeb,

When you act like a man and talk about the topics at hand with some sense, I may once again respect your comments. Until then, your sleazy antics are cheap and transparent. Keep it up – it only damages you.

Vroom,

OMG, what a blatant liberal bias to this post. You are such a blind asshole and definately in agreement with that Al Shades guy. Thanks for sharing the liberal viewpoint. Have a nice day my liberal friend… :slight_smile:

. o O (I can’t tell the difference, can you tell the difference?)

90

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Zeby, you out spoken soldier of the lost, you were MIA from your incessent stalking of Vroom for awhile as well. Needed a break to? You can stick me with Vroom anyday, I take that to be a compliment and an honor to be included with a guy like that. Al may be an arrogant little shit who’s a little misguided, but he’s smarter then many here. Any way Zeb, I have got work to do talk to you later, have a good day!

[/quote]

Elkmeister,

Actually, I had real work to do so I had less time on the Forum, I didn’t post at all on any of the threads. I hate it when life gets in the way of stuff like this.

You however posted elsewhere on the Forum and deliberatly avoided the political threads for quite a while. No big deal…just wanted to point that out. I don’t want you getting burned out and going away again :. I know how you liberals take these threads to heart.

With Bush winning the White House and the republicans controlling three branches of government…well I know it can be difficult for you guys.

The fact that you seem to embrace Al Shades is um… interesting. You really admire him huh? Let me get this straight: You, vroom and Al shades… Is that right?

Notice how vroom is silent while you stand to defend him? He must be pondering some very heavy thoughts right now: Socialized medicine, higher taxes and the evil American military are just three possibilities.

Have a good day at work Elk, glad you are back in the mix!

91

Zebler, before you get all giddy with joy aligning me with Al, I must correct that false line of thought. I said he is a pretty smart kid and I get a kick out of the way he unloads on all of us here it’s funny, but I never know when he might unload a barrage on me as well. Al doesn’t align himself with anyone according to him he doesn’t need to, he’s immortal after all and will be here long after were gone!

As far as Vroom goes he needs no one to defend him least of all me! I just get tired of your endless attempts to discredit him. He really gets to you, doesn’t he?

And, as far as the White house and branches of Government its the pendulum Zeb, the pendulum,
I still have plenty of years left in my life to see a good man in office whether he’s democrat or republican. I don’t have an entire beef with the repubs if they get rid of the neocons and the extremist religious right.

92

[quote]Al Shades wrote:
Hey Zeb, can you elaborate on whatever it is that leads you to believe vroom and I agree on this topic? From the sparse information that can be gleamed from your off-topic rambling, it seems that you haven’t read a single discussion-related post that wasn’t made by your ideological cohorts on this thread.

How do you know that Vroom and I agree on anything, and what exactly do we agree on? Such philosophical queries - I feel like I’m standing in the Oxford debate hall… [/quote]

nice, Zeb, you managed to insult both li’l al AND the vroomster.
WTF is your point in always attacking vroom?
And using Al “dumbass” Shades as a way to do it is just horrid.
Vroom lost more intelligent important stuff this morning when he flushed the toilet than Al.
Please stop with the gratuitous vroom bashing. He says enough things that I’m sure you can take issue with and debate him on the issues, but I don’t think comparing him and Alvin is the way to go.
JMO.

*spelled ‘comparing’ wrong.

93

Elk -

Again, good points. I have to admit however, that I would not sexually humiliate those poor bastards. Don’t get me wrong, I would humiliate them, but the methods that they used were both unorthodox and fucked up as well. I have no pity for them. They should pay for what they did and what they continue to do. I’m in agreement with you on this one Elk. RLTW

rangertab75

94

vroom,

This may come as a shock to you pal, but I don’t much care if you “respect my comments.” You have an agenda which screams out for just about every liberal talking point that comes out of the DNC.

I will continue to speak out on the topics at hand. However, I am also going to continue to remind the board that you are a liberal who sometimes likes to disguise himself as…something else. Don’t like it much do you? :slight_smile:

Elkster,

I have never discredited vroom. I merely point out what he stands for which seems to bother him and you as well. Therefore, I think I’ll keep it up :slight_smile:

I agree the pendulum has swung in favor of the republicans. Ask yourself why that is. Is it simply a matter of the democrats not fielding a good candidate? I think it goes a bit deeper. I think there is a major shift in political leanings based upon a few underlying reasons; age, demographics, geography etc. We will have to discuss this at a later date. I look forward to it.

95

Zeb,

I’ve merely tried to inform you that you are making an ass clown out of yourself.

Please continue to do so at your leisure.

As far as I am aware, I am just me. I like to debate the issues and ask questions that might make some people think.

I realize you see some vast liberal conspiracy in the wings around here somehow…

Point out anything you like, I’d hate to be the one you cry censorship at!

However, if possible, why not try sticking to the truth and accuracy in the process – that would probably be a more mature course to follow.

On that note, I honestly don’t know Al’s viewpoint on this. Not in any detail. My view is that things get glossed over and that the conservatives in here will never discuss issues.

You are a shining example of that. Congratulations for being an embarrassment to thinking conservatives across the planet!

96

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

I’ve merely tried to inform you that you are making an ass clown out of yourself.

Please continue to do so at your leisure.

As far as I am aware, I am just me. I like to debate the issues and ask questions that might make some people think.

I realize you see some vast liberal conspiracy in the wings around here somehow…

Point out anything you like, I’d hate to be the one you cry censorship at!

However, if possible, why not try sticking to the truth and accuracy in the process – that would probably be a more mature course to follow.

On that note, I honestly don’t know Al’s viewpoint on this. Not in any detail. My view is that things get glossed over and that the conservatives in here will never discuss issues.

You are a shining example of that. Congratulations for being an embarrassment to thinking conservatives across the planet![/quote]

vroom:

You are true to character!

I call you a liberal, which is not a personal attack and you respond in kind with a personal attack. “Ass clown?” Who is childish? LOL!

I like it when you try to deny you are a liberal while attacking conservatives:

“My view is that things get glossed over and that the conservatives in here will never discuss issues.”

I thank you for helping me make my point! By the way whenever there are issues to discuss why is it that you always seem to end up taking the liberal side? Am I a bad guy in your eyes for pointing out your political stance? I think not.

Keep up the good work vroom, more posts like your most recent one and there will be no need to point anything out.

97

[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom,

This may come as a shock to you pal, but I don’t much care if you “respect my comments.” You have an agenda which screams out for just about every liberal talking point that comes out of the DNC.

I will continue to speak out on the topics at hand. However, I am also going to continue to remind the board that you are a liberal who sometimes likes to disguise himself as…something else. Don’t like it much do you? :slight_smile:

Elkster,

I have never discredited vroom. I merely point out what he stands for which seems to bother him and you as well. Therefore, I think I’ll keep it up :slight_smile:

I agree the pendulum has swung in favor of the republicans. Ask yourself why that is. Is it simply a matter of the democrats not fielding a good candidate? I think it goes a bit deeper. I think there is a major shift in political leanings based upon a few underlying reasons; age, demographics, geography etc. We will have to discuss this at a later date. I look forward to it.
[/quote]

Gee, you make liberal sound so bad Zeb. Don’t you think its more embarassing to be conservative, especially considering the track record of conservative philosophy has been wrong on basically, well everything, and has been beneficial to so few. (Unless you are part of the few, then I get it.)

98

Nice try Zeb…

99

100meters:

Actually, I’m proud to be conservative in most of my political beliefs. I think that the conservatives over a period of years have shown proper leadership and the right philisophical stance on most issues. You feel differently, I know :slight_smile:

vroom,

Nice try?

If you take a multitude of liberal positions on this board and I call you a liberal do you think it appropriate to name call as a rebuttal?

100

Zeb, grow up! I said you are acting like an ass clown. You are.

If you wish to call me liberal, call me liberal. Stick to truth, or at least near truth, avoid smear tactics, discuss issues.

Otherwise, be called on your actions. If you don’t like being called an ass clown, don’t be one.