About Belief, Religion and God

[pat]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…
[/quote]

Take an example and lets discuss it…[/quote]

…allright, but i’m gonna turn in after this one. So what about the Pope’s stance on homosexuality, contraceptives and the child abuse issues plaging the Catholic Church and the way the Church deals with these issues? Is that good christian morality? 'Cos from where i’m standing, they need a good slap upside the head and a kick in the nuts for being archaic mysoginist assholes…
[/quote]

First I wanted to add that organized religion is ultimately just a guide. A person’s faith journey is their own.[/quote]

…no it isn’t, that is just apologetics pat, and you know it. The Church has had, and still has, a lot of influence on people and that influence is wielded with a heavy hand. Sure, much of the real power they had is gone, but as long a people listen and obey the church leaders, religion is not just a guide…

Sure it has power. It’s a powerful thing, but it’s purpose in life isn’t to wield power over people. I think your confusing the theocracies of the past with today, and that’s just not happening. There’s no gun to anybodies head. The main points of influence is to get wars to stop, finding common ground with world religions, getting people fed, stopping abortion…These are the types of matters the church uses it’s influence to bring about.

Ok, Let’s start with homosexuality. It’s a misconception conception that homosexuals aren’t welcome in the church. A practicing homosexual cannot receive the sacraments but they are allowed and encouraged to participate in prayer, the mass and things of that nature. Non-practicing homosexuals are welcome in to be in full communion with the church. The same rules apply to heteros gettin’ their groove on outside of marriage. This is actually in the catechism.

…if it’s about restricting acces to communion or just the church, i don’t care about it; it’s a club with rules and why join the club if you can’t follow the rules? The problem starts when people in public office use their religion’s stance on homosexuality to discriminate against gays. Perhaps not simply a moral issue, but that’s next…

The church does not act politically or socially to promote the discrimination of any person. You got us confused with somebody else.

Contraceptives are a relatively new issue to the church, and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter. But you have to understand that 1.2 billion people look to the Holy See for a guide to salvation. So they have to be careful, I do think this will eventually change or at least lax, but they have to be damn sure their not leading people in the wrong direction. It would be irresponsible for them to just say, “Yeah, do what you want, fuck away”. People as it is take an meter when given a centimeter. The repercussions especially in places like Africa, the Philippines and what not could be whole lots of unwanted kids and diseases. That problem is large enough already. So they have to be sure, because when they loosen something like that, people will go nuts.

…why would the Church deny the benefits of condom use with regards to stopping the spread of AIDS? One other thing: are you argueing that supporting the use of contraceptives by the Church will likely lead to an increase in births and STD’s? i’m speechless. I’m without speech
[/quote]
You said contraceptives, not just rubbers. Rubbers are one of the lesser used forms. I agree with you, BTW, that condom use should not be condemned especially in the poorer regions of the world. I was speaking about contraceptives on a whole. And yes, the pill, stint, and other non-blocking methods do not stop STD’s and further, if not used properly will result in more pregnancies. In the 3rd world, were education is at a premium, women would not have the information to know when and how these other forms would be compromised.

[quote]The child abuse issue, is despicable in every way shape and form. the cover up by some of the bishops was just as bad. I can tell you that activity isn’t sanctioned by the church. Clergy are people and some are bad people. The damage they caused has been devastating. The whole church paid dearly for the horrid actions of the few. The whole church has taken corrective action, but if somebody wants to be evil, then they will be.
[/quote]

…i can go along with that people will be people, sure. But how the fuck to you explain that these child abuse cases have been going on for decades all over the world with the Church knowing about it, and nothing happened? What about the Magdalene girls in Ireland who had to endure all kinds of abuse well into the 1960’s?

…institutionalized religion is a corporation, it’s a huge bussiness aimed at control and profit. The proof is in the pudding…[/quote]

There is no explaining it. There were a lot of people who did a lot of harm. But the vast majority are not like that and are good folks who do lots of good. The media only seeks to do us harm or damage our reputations. It is of no benefit for them to report the many good activities the church is involved in all around the world, especially those places where no one else will go to.

[pat]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it means that you cannot separate the Church and it’s teachings from the bible. If you claim that christian morality had a big impact on european society, you also must look at what the Church did in the name of it’s deity. I’ll bet you that there are far more people who listen to what their churchleader is saying in regards to morality, than what they glean themselves from reading the bible…

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

Sounds like you think there is a big conspiracy theory or something

You can’t tarnish the bible with what man has done with it. Yes, it is a big tool, but initially, the Christians used it in the right way. As time went by, apostates came, and people in power used it; that’s when things tended to go wrong.

You’re not deciphering what the bible teaches and the church/man. It’s like saying that all Muslims are terrorists because of the Quran.

Some good came out the bible, but where bad came, there was usually a hidden agenda/misinterpretation of those with power.[/quote]

…so when was the cut-off point then? When Constatine adopted christianity for the Roman Empire? According to the wiki page that happened in 312 A.D. That’s 1700 years. When did christians stop doing good with the bible, and the apostates took over? And i ask again: what good is it to separate the bible from religion, when religion using the bible did so much damage, whilst claiming it was christian morality that shaped european society?

[/quote]

That’s an interesting question which has quite a story behind it. Strictly speaking, the cut off point was when the last of the 12 apostles of Jesus died, which was John in 100 C.E. This apostasy was already foretold by Jesus and his apostles.

Examples:
In an illustration Jesus foretold that people wouldn’t be true to the truth. He likened the true religion/kingdom to wheat (the good), and the “screwed up” version of religion as the “weeds” (apostasy) growing in amongst it. (Matthew 13:24, 25)

The apostles constantly had to set the churches straight (1John 2:26 & 3John 9, 10). Paul said that “subtle bad influences” were at play in his time , and that those bad influences were being restrained at that time (apparently by the apostles of Jesus), and that these unknown influences would develop into wicked things being done in the name of Christianity. In other words, Paul warned that hypocritical apostasy would shortly take place. (2Thessalonians 2)

Paul said that after he died, oppressive “wolves” would infiltrate the church/religion and would twist things etc and just want people to follow them instead of the teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30)…sound familiar?

To sum up; the bad came with the good.[/quote]

And all the missions, relief work, hundreds of charities in multiple fields such as building schools, hospitals, caring for the less fortunate, etc. Does not count as good things? Clergy and laymen alike who go in to the nastiest most dangerous parts of the world to provide charity and good will to people everybody else ignores, are not good tenents? None of this counts because others who are in the vast minority took advantage the church and people and did horrible things?

Evil does have a foot hold in any church. Perfect churches are for perfect people. We’re not perfect, God gave humans the job of running it. We screw it up from time to time, but the basics are there, they are good things, and have never changed.

[ephrem]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…so when was the cut-off point then? When Constatine adopted christianity for the Roman Empire? According to the wiki page that happened in 312 A.D. That’s 1700 years. When did christians stop doing good with the bible, and the apostates took over? And i ask again: what good is it to separate the bible from religion, when religion using the bible did so much damage, whilst claiming it was christian morality that shaped european society?

[/quote]

That’s an interesting question which has quite a story behind it. Strictly speaking, the cut off point was when the last of the 12 apostles of Jesus died, which was John in 100 C.E. This apostasy was already foretold by Jesus and his apostles.

Examples:
In an illustration Jesus foretold that people wouldn’t be true to the truth. He likened the true religion/kingdom to wheat (the good), and the “screwed up” version of religion as the “weeds” (apostasy) growing in amongst it. (Matthew 13:24, 25)

The apostles constantly had to set the churches straight (1John 2:26 & 3John 9, 10). Paul said that “subtle bad influences” were at play in his time , and that those bad influences were being restrained at that time (apparently by the apostles of Jesus), and that these unknown influences would develop into wicked things being done in the name of Christianity. In other words, Paul warned that hypocritical apostasy would shortly take place. (2Thessalonians 2)

Paul said that after he died, oppressive “wolves” would infiltrate the church/religion and would twist things etc and just want people to follow them instead of the teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30)…sound familiar?

To sum up; the bad came with the good.[/quote]

…even Gautama Buddha said that within 500 years of his death the true meaning of his teachings will be lost to his followers. But do you realise what you’ve said here? The 100 years or so after the supposed birth of Christ, the church of Christ was taken over by wolves, and the wolves made the Church in to what it is today. By that same token i could argue that every church that’s based on the same “business” model is led by wolves…

…that means that our society was shaped and influenced by people who perverted christianity for their own purposes. Ha! Well thank you its_just_me for that revelation, i’ll definitly use this in future discussions. No wonder we live in such a fucked-up society…

[ephrem]

[quote]pat wrote:

And all the missions, relief work, hundreds of charities in multiple fields such as building schools, hospitals, caring for the less fortunate, etc. Does not count as good things? Clergy and laymen alike who go in to the nastiest most dangerous parts of the world to provide charity and good will to people everybody else ignores, are not good tenents? None of this counts because others who are in the vast minority took advantage the church and people and did horrible things?

Evil does have a foot hold in any church. Perfect churches are for perfect people. We’re not perfect, God gave humans the job of running it. We screw it up from time to time, but the basics are there, they are good things, and have never changed.[/quote]

…it’s usually the individual who wants to make a difference, and management that fucks it up…

[its_just_me]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it means that you cannot separate the Church and it’s teachings from the bible. If you claim that christian morality had a big impact on european society, you also must look at what the Church did in the name of it’s deity. I’ll bet you that there are far more people who listen to what their churchleader is saying in regards to morality, than what they glean themselves from reading the bible…

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

Sounds like you think there is a big conspiracy theory or something

You can’t tarnish the bible with what man has done with it. Yes, it is a big tool, but initially, the Christians used it in the right way. As time went by, apostates came, and people in power used it; that’s when things tended to go wrong.

You’re not deciphering what the bible teaches and the church/man. It’s like saying that all Muslims are terrorists because of the Quran.

Some good came out the bible, but where bad came, there was usually a hidden agenda/misinterpretation of those with power.[/quote]

…so when was the cut-off point then? When Constatine adopted christianity for the Roman Empire? According to the wiki page that happened in 312 A.D. That’s 1700 years. When did christians stop doing good with the bible, and the apostates took over? And i ask again: what good is it to separate the bible from religion, when religion using the bible did so much damage, whilst claiming it was christian morality that shaped european society?

[/quote]

That’s an interesting question which has quite a story behind it. Strictly speaking, the cut off point was when the last of the 12 apostles of Jesus died, which was John in 100 C.E. This apostasy was already foretold by Jesus and his apostles.

Examples:
In an illustration Jesus foretold that people wouldn’t be true to the truth. He likened the true religion/kingdom to wheat (the good), and the “screwed up” version of religion as the “weeds” (apostasy) growing in amongst it. (Matthew 13:24, 25)

The apostles constantly had to set the churches straight (1John 2:26 & 3John 9, 10). Paul said that “subtle bad influences” were at play in his time , and that those bad influences were being restrained at that time (apparently by the apostles of Jesus), and that these unknown influences would develop into wicked things being done in the name of Christianity. In other words, Paul warned that hypocritical apostasy would shortly take place. (2Thessalonians 2)

Paul said that after he died, oppressive “wolves” would infiltrate the church/religion and would twist things etc and just want people to follow them instead of the teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30)…sound familiar?

To sum up; the bad came with the good.[/quote]

And all the missions, relief work, hundreds of charities in multiple fields such as building schools, hospitals, caring for the less fortunate, etc. Does not count as good things? Clergy and laymen alike who go in to the nastiest most dangerous parts of the world to provide charity and good will to people everybody else ignores, are not good tenents? None of this counts because others who are in the vast minority took advantage the church and people and did horrible things?

Evil does have a foot hold in any church. Perfect churches are for perfect people. We’re not perfect, God gave humans the job of running it. We screw it up from time to time, but the basics are there, they are good things, and have never changed.[/quote]

In no way am I saying otherwise

I said, the bad came with the good. Take for example the inquisition and crusades; people doing bad things in the name of Christianity.

[ephrem]

A.J. Jacobs’ year of living biblically

My year of living biblically | A.J. Jacobs

[its_just_me]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…so when was the cut-off point then? When Constatine adopted christianity for the Roman Empire? According to the wiki page that happened in 312 A.D. That’s 1700 years. When did christians stop doing good with the bible, and the apostates took over? And i ask again: what good is it to separate the bible from religion, when religion using the bible did so much damage, whilst claiming it was christian morality that shaped european society?

[/quote]

That’s an interesting question which has quite a story behind it. Strictly speaking, the cut off point was when the last of the 12 apostles of Jesus died, which was John in 100 C.E. This apostasy was already foretold by Jesus and his apostles.

Examples:
In an illustration Jesus foretold that people wouldn’t be true to the truth. He likened the true religion/kingdom to wheat (the good), and the “screwed up” version of religion as the “weeds” (apostasy) growing in amongst it. (Matthew 13:24, 25)

The apostles constantly had to set the churches straight (1John 2:26 & 3John 9, 10). Paul said that “subtle bad influences” were at play in his time , and that those bad influences were being restrained at that time (apparently by the apostles of Jesus), and that these unknown influences would develop into wicked things being done in the name of Christianity. In other words, Paul warned that hypocritical apostasy would shortly take place. (2Thessalonians 2)

Paul said that after he died, oppressive “wolves” would infiltrate the church/religion and would twist things etc and just want people to follow them instead of the teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30)…sound familiar?

To sum up; the bad came with the good.[/quote]

…even Gautama Buddha said that within 500 years of his death the true meaning of his teachings will be lost to his followers. But do you realise what you’ve said here? The 100 years or so after the supposed birth of Christ, the church of Christ was taken over by wolves, and the wolves made the Church in to what it is today. By that same token i could argue that every church that’s based on the same “business” model is led by wolves…

…that means that our society was shaped and influenced by people who perverted christianity for their own purposes. Ha! Well thank you its_just_me for that revelation, i’ll definitly use this in future discussions. No wonder we live in such a fucked-up society…[/quote]

LOL

Well, you have kind of twisted and exaggerated that just a tad. It’s not what I say, but the bible. It is true that the true message of Christianity has been “blurred” at times, but there have been the true ones throughout history who stuck up for what is right.

If I carried on with that prophesy of Jesus, he says that there would come a time when a separating work would happen, when the “fake” Christians would be filtered out (Matthew 13:41)

[pat]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

And all the missions, relief work, hundreds of charities in multiple fields such as building schools, hospitals, caring for the less fortunate, etc. Does not count as good things? Clergy and laymen alike who go in to the nastiest most dangerous parts of the world to provide charity and good will to people everybody else ignores, are not good tenents? None of this counts because others who are in the vast minority took advantage the church and people and did horrible things?

Evil does have a foot hold in any church. Perfect churches are for perfect people. We’re not perfect, God gave humans the job of running it. We screw it up from time to time, but the basics are there, they are good things, and have never changed.[/quote]

…it’s usually the individual who wants to make a difference, and management that fucks it up…[/quote]

It’s a miracle it actually works as many times you have rank amateurs running the show. However, we are talking about a lot of people who a lot of good works on behalf of the church, it’s not an isolated thing.
You can run down to your local church and just ask them what good they are doing in their community and the world. They won’t be at a loss for words.

[pat]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…it means that you cannot separate the Church and it’s teachings from the bible. If you claim that christian morality had a big impact on european society, you also must look at what the Church did in the name of it’s deity. I’ll bet you that there are far more people who listen to what their churchleader is saying in regards to morality, than what they glean themselves from reading the bible…

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

Sounds like you think there is a big conspiracy theory or something

You can’t tarnish the bible with what man has done with it. Yes, it is a big tool, but initially, the Christians used it in the right way. As time went by, apostates came, and people in power used it; that’s when things tended to go wrong.

You’re not deciphering what the bible teaches and the church/man. It’s like saying that all Muslims are terrorists because of the Quran.

Some good came out the bible, but where bad came, there was usually a hidden agenda/misinterpretation of those with power.[/quote]

…so when was the cut-off point then? When Constatine adopted christianity for the Roman Empire? According to the wiki page that happened in 312 A.D. That’s 1700 years. When did christians stop doing good with the bible, and the apostates took over? And i ask again: what good is it to separate the bible from religion, when religion using the bible did so much damage, whilst claiming it was christian morality that shaped european society?

[/quote]

That’s an interesting question which has quite a story behind it. Strictly speaking, the cut off point was when the last of the 12 apostles of Jesus died, which was John in 100 C.E. This apostasy was already foretold by Jesus and his apostles.

Examples:
In an illustration Jesus foretold that people wouldn’t be true to the truth. He likened the true religion/kingdom to wheat (the good), and the “screwed up” version of religion as the “weeds” (apostasy) growing in amongst it. (Matthew 13:24, 25)

The apostles constantly had to set the churches straight (1John 2:26 & 3John 9, 10). Paul said that “subtle bad influences” were at play in his time , and that those bad influences were being restrained at that time (apparently by the apostles of Jesus), and that these unknown influences would develop into wicked things being done in the name of Christianity. In other words, Paul warned that hypocritical apostasy would shortly take place. (2Thessalonians 2)

Paul said that after he died, oppressive “wolves” would infiltrate the church/religion and would twist things etc and just want people to follow them instead of the teachings. (Acts 20:29, 30)…sound familiar?

To sum up; the bad came with the good.[/quote]

And all the missions, relief work, hundreds of charities in multiple fields such as building schools, hospitals, caring for the less fortunate, etc. Does not count as good things? Clergy and laymen alike who go in to the nastiest most dangerous parts of the world to provide charity and good will to people everybody else ignores, are not good tenents? None of this counts because others who are in the vast minority took advantage the church and people and did horrible things?

Evil does have a foot hold in any church. Perfect churches are for perfect people. We’re not perfect, God gave humans the job of running it. We screw it up from time to time, but the basics are there, they are good things, and have never changed.[/quote]

In no way am I saying otherwise

I said, the bad came with the good. Take for example the inquisition and crusades; people doing bad things in the name of Christianity.[/quote]

The crusades were not for the purpose of blood and conquest it was a joint effort of church and state as they were intertwined at the time, to fight the moores who were invading European lands and forcing conversion to islam in the taken areas. It became a manifest destiny to take Jerusalem, on the premise that that would alleviate the threat. Simultaneously, people figured out that you could get filthy rich in the process and there were many abuses, thereâ??s no doubt. If they did not fight the moores, Europe would look very different right now.

As far as the inquisition, presumably you mean the Spanish Inquisition. Ferdinand and Isabel got permission from Pope Sixtus to do it, but when word got back to the Vatican as to what was happening in Spain, the pope spoke against it, but was pretty much ignored. Spain had just finished the 100 years war. The convert or die was basically a way for Spain to get rid of their enemies. The church itself had very little say in the matter as the Spanish army was in turkey fighting the moores there.
This is why separation of church and state is a good thing.

[ephrem]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

LOL

Well, you have kind of twisted and exaggerated that just a tad. It’s not what I say, but the bible. It is true that the true message of Christianity has been “blurred” at times, but there have been the true ones throughout history who stuck up for what is right.

If I carried on with that prophesy of Jesus, he says that there would come a time when a separating work would happen, when the “fake” Christians would be filtered out (Matthew 13:41)[/quote]

…can you say anything on which christians you believe are “fake”?

[its_just_me]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

LOL

Well, you have kind of twisted and exaggerated that just a tad. It’s not what I say, but the bible. It is true that the true message of Christianity has been “blurred” at times, but there have been the true ones throughout history who stuck up for what is right.

If I carried on with that prophesy of Jesus, he says that there would come a time when a separating work would happen, when the “fake” Christians would be filtered out (Matthew 13:41)[/quote]

…can you say anything on which christians you believe are “fake”?[/quote]

It’s not my place to judge.

But generally, those who are hypocrites are not looked upon with favour. The bible makes it very clear that there are standards to follow, and if these are being deliberately ignored, well, judge for yourself…

[its_just_me]

[quote]pat wrote:
This is why separation of church and state is a good thing.
[/quote]

Agreed

[Makavali]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Makes perfect sense. And I agree that likely, perverts were perverts from the start.[/quote]

So they were born that way? I mean, some of these men grew up doing nothing but studying to become priests.

[Makavali]

[quote]pat wrote:
and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter.[/quote]

Good for you. Doesn’t stop the other Catholics trying to deny aid to people who use contraceptives, or stop government funding of organizations that promote condom use.

[pat]

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter.[/quote]

Good for you. Doesn’t stop the other Catholics trying to deny aid to people who use contraceptives, or stop government funding of organizations that promote condom use.[/quote]

proof?

[pat]

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

LOL

Well, you have kind of twisted and exaggerated that just a tad. It’s not what I say, but the bible. It is true that the true message of Christianity has been “blurred” at times, but there have been the true ones throughout history who stuck up for what is right.

If I carried on with that prophesy of Jesus, he says that there would come a time when a separating work would happen, when the “fake” Christians would be filtered out (Matthew 13:41)[/quote]

…can you say anything on which christians you believe are “fake”?[/quote]

I can. The ones who’ll show up to church from time to time, those who say they are Christians but only out of convenience. They do what they want and do not hold to the basic tenets, which are love God and love your neighbor and act like it. This does not mean people who “sin”, but people who just don’t try.
What’s in their hearts? I don’t know. But they act in a manner that does not respect people or God.
No, that doesn’t mean they are going to hell, it just means they don’t value their faith at the time.

[Makavali]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter.[/quote]

Good for you. Doesn’t stop the other Catholics trying to deny aid to people who use contraceptives, or stop government funding of organizations that promote condom use.[/quote]

proof?[/quote]

lol

You must not get out much.

[pat]

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter.[/quote]

Good for you. Doesn’t stop the other Catholics trying to deny aid to people who use contraceptives, or stop government funding of organizations that promote condom use.[/quote]

proof?[/quote]

lol

You must not get out much.[/quote]

That’s your proof? Good job.

[ephrem]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

LOL

Well, you have kind of twisted and exaggerated that just a tad. It’s not what I say, but the bible. It is true that the true message of Christianity has been “blurred” at times, but there have been the true ones throughout history who stuck up for what is right.

If I carried on with that prophesy of Jesus, he says that there would come a time when a separating work would happen, when the “fake” Christians would be filtered out (Matthew 13:41)[/quote]

…can you say anything on which christians you believe are “fake”?[/quote]

I can. The ones who’ll show up to church from time to time, those who say they are Christians but only out of convenience. They do what they want and do not hold to the basic tenets, which are love God and love your neighbor and act like it. This does not mean people who “sin”, but people who just don’t try.
What’s in their hearts? I don’t know. But they act in a manner that does not respect people or God.
No, that doesn’t mean they are going to hell, it just means they don’t value their faith at the time.[/quote]

…are they the majority or minority in religion you think?

[ephrem]

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