About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
861

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What is easier, steal something or earn it? Work hard or have others do the work for you? Kill someone for their things or earn them yourself?

It isn’t like the world is getting better. Anyone can see that things have gotten much worse. You would think that if we were all evolving and becoming higher developed beings, that there would be less problems and not more. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is getting eerily close to sounding like fear of eternal punishment is what keeps you guys civil. Say it ain’t so!

[/quote]

Not that it’s shocking, but you’re wrong and you simply do not understand theism or religion at all. [/quote]

Going by what you’ve posted, I hit the nail on the head, at least when it comes to you. You must be one of the most immoral people around if the only reason to show compassion is fear of eternal flame.

Remembering that I’m an Atheist, by your logic, it makes no sense for me to have donated half my paycheck earlier this year to MSF, it makes no sense that I don’t run around taking what I want (i.e. material goods, women). And yet I manage just fine. And so do millions of other atheists.

862

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I find that many atheists/agnostics tend to oversimplify moral behaviour. In the bible, it goes much deeper than simply not murdering/stealing.

Also, many underestimate the effects that a “Christian” society has had on them as a nation. I say Christian in inverted commas because although most were “converted”, they were not converted by heart. When Britain was still pagan, many things in their way of life would be shocking to the average modern Westerner (e.g. animal acts, sexual conduct etc). And yet, some here claim that this is ONLY their natural inkling that causes them to be “moral” (that is, that without an organized understanding, A.K.A. religion, they’d be the same)? I say it’s moreso environment…and many atheists “forget” what changes the national Christian conversion had on morals.[/quote]

Slavery is now unthinkable in civil society, and yet not even 100 years ago it was a norm and sanctioned by whatever “holy” book you could find. More and more of the Bible is by some magical mystery (people waking up) becoming a “story” instead of literal fact. You don’t publicly stone adulterers and unruly children to death either. Humanity has constantly evolving morals, and they do what they will quite independently from religion.

863

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I agree to some degree (the hypocrisy/tyranny), but when you’re talking about stuff such as sex before marriage, only having one wife etc, these are pretty standard “rules” brought to the West by institutionalised Christianity. Yet, someone like yourself may say that they would not “cheat” on their wives because of their own humane principles…but these are principles that have been instilled on society in the West (not necessarily something that comes naturally to mankind).[/quote]

Monogamy isn’t a purely Christian concept. Where are you getting this?

864

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I find that many atheists/agnostics tend to oversimplify moral behaviour. In the bible, it goes much deeper than simply not murdering/stealing.

Also, many underestimate the effects that a “Christian” society has had on them as a nation. I say Christian in inverted commas because although most were “converted”, they were not converted by heart. When Britain was still pagan, many things in their way of life would be shocking to the average modern Westerner (e.g. animal acts, sexual conduct etc). And yet, some here claim that this is ONLY their natural inkling that causes them to be “moral” (that is, that without an organized understanding, A.K.A. religion, they’d be the same)? I say it’s moreso environment…and many atheists “forget” what changes the national Christian conversion had on morals.[/quote]

Slavery is now unthinkable in civil society, and yet not even 100 years ago it was a norm and sanctioned by whatever “holy” book you could find. More and more of the Bible is by some magical mystery (people waking up) becoming a “story” instead of literal fact. You don’t publicly stone adulterers and unruly children to death either. Humanity has constantly evolving morals, and they do what they will quite independently from religion.[/quote]

Is “slavery” really unthinkable nowadays? What would you call the modern day hierarchy? What would you call the class distinctions that we have? How come we have people “slaving” away on highway maintenance all day (for example), and then we have people with more money than they know what to do with (big houses, comfortable lives etc)? What happens when you sign your boss’ contract, are you not under obligation by them? How long does the average person have to work at a 9-5 type job in his life?

All throughout the history of economy, there have been the “thinkers”, and the “workers”. The ones at the “top”, and the “bottom”.

People think of slavery in bible times as being terrible, but it wasn’t (as long as the “master” wasn’t oppressive…of which there were regulations in the bible against this behaviour). Typically, a “slave” in the bible was a house servant for 6 or 7 years, after which they could go free. Even after that, if the slave liked his master so much, he could chose to be his “slave” forever…if life as a “slave” was that bad, why would they CHOSE to remain one? The masters job was to look after the slave and feed them etc, something extremely valuable in those harsh days.

Not trying to glamorise this old custom, but some perspective is required. And to say that the bible approves of it, is like saying that it approved of divorce…which as Jesus said, it was only “tolerated” due to the hard heartedness of the people at the time. Just because there are regulations on a custom, and it was permitted, doesn’t mean that it was promoted.

865

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I agree to some degree (the hypocrisy/tyranny), but when you’re talking about stuff such as sex before marriage, only having one wife etc, these are pretty standard “rules” brought to the West by institutionalised Christianity. Yet, someone like yourself may say that they would not “cheat” on their wives because of their own humane principles…but these are principles that have been instilled on society in the West (not necessarily something that comes naturally to mankind).[/quote]

Monogamy isn’t a purely Christian concept. Where are you getting this?[/quote]

That’s beside the point. Whether it was as much a Roman concept (for example) as it was Christian, the point is that whatever the culture is like, that’s what people tend to take on as their own principles.

In other words, you cannot say that culture has no impact on us as individuals - we are heavily influenced and conditioned by it. Thus, people cannot say that without “rules”/principles, they would do fine with morality (as if ALL “morality” is perfectly natural and conceived only by their own minds).

Remember the whole point of this debate, you say that humanity doesn’t need to live their lives by God’s standards, and that they do fine without them.

866

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
That’s a long story, but in some respect, you’re right (apart from that doesn’t excuse their despicable behaviour).

However, I don’t believe the bible prohibits marriage for the priest, that’s something that was “invented” shall we say, or misinterpreted/taken the wrong way.[/quote]

…but surely you agree that much of what is taught, and has been taught, as christian morality is not directly dependant on ones own interpretation of the bible? IOW, the Church tells you what christian morality is; you can’t really separate the bible from the Church because the Church has [had] the biggest [historical] impact on society…[/quote]

That’s a different story. I do believe that what the churches says and what the bible says has been contradictory. And the churches have distorted the bible in many ways (mainly due to power/control/customs). What’s your point, how does that tie into the discussion? Does that mean that the bible is wrong and as individuals you can gain no benefit from it?

867

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I agree to some degree (the hypocrisy/tyranny), but when you’re talking about stuff such as sex before marriage, only having one wife etc, these are pretty standard “rules” brought to the West by institutionalised Christianity. Yet, someone like yourself may say that they would not “cheat” on their wives because of their own humane principles…but these are principles that have been instilled on society in the West (not necessarily something that comes naturally to mankind).[/quote]

Monogamy isn’t a purely Christian concept. Where are you getting this?[/quote]

That’s beside the point. Whether it was as much a Roman concept (for example) as it was Christian, the point is that whatever the culture is like, that’s what people tend to take on as their own principles.

In other words, you cannot say that culture has no impact on us as individuals - we are heavily influenced and conditioned by it. Thus, people cannot say that without “rules”/principles, they would do fine with morality (as if ALL “morality” is perfectly natural and conceived only by their own minds).

Remember the whole point of this debate, you say that humanity doesn’t need to live their lives by God’s standards, and that they do fine without them.[/quote]

You seem a bit lost here. First you say Christianity bought monogamy to Western civilization, then you say that it’s beside the point? You just made my point for me, morality doesn’t come from God, it comes from us.

You forget that despite the various external (and admittedly some internal) differences, for the most part we are the same. It’s not actually that surprising morality has basic principals common to humanity, and even to a degree, animals that we are closely related to.

868

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Is “slavery” really unthinkable nowadays?[/quote]

Yes.

Not slavery.

You must be quite young to not understand the difference between involuntary servitude and a mutually signed contract for services.

869

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
That’s a long story, but in some respect, you’re right (apart from that doesn’t excuse their despicable behaviour).

However, I don’t believe the bible prohibits marriage for the priest, that’s something that was “invented” shall we say, or misinterpreted/taken the wrong way.[/quote]

…but surely you agree that much of what is taught, and has been taught, as christian morality is not directly dependant on ones own interpretation of the bible? IOW, the Church tells you what christian morality is; you can’t really separate the bible from the Church because the Church has [had] the biggest [historical] impact on society…[/quote]

That’s a different story. I do believe that what the churches says and what the bible says has been contradictory. And the churches have distorted the bible in many ways (mainly due to power/control/customs). What’s your point, how does that tie into the discussion? Does that mean that the bible is wrong and as individuals you can gain no benefit from it?[/quote]

…it means that you cannot separate the Church and it’s teachings from the bible. If you claim that christian morality had a big impact on european society, you also must look at what the Church did in the name of it’s deity. I’ll bet you that there are far more people who listen to what their churchleader is saying in regards to morality, than what they glean themselves from reading the bible…

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…

870

I guess I just don’t understand why we cant still worship Poseidon, Zeus, Apollo, and the like. I think people who gave up Polytheism for Christianity or another Abrahamic religion are weak mentally and can’t accept that there are gods for multiple things. It’s just common sense that if your on the high seas or in a forest you are in the realm of a different deity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zeus-greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg

871

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What is easier, steal something or earn it? Work hard or have others do the work for you? Kill someone for their things or earn them yourself?

It isn’t like the world is getting better. Anyone can see that things have gotten much worse. You would think that if we were all evolving and becoming higher developed beings, that there would be less problems and not more. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but this is getting eerily close to sounding like fear of eternal punishment is what keeps you guys civil. Say it ain’t so!

[/quote]

Not that it’s shocking, but you’re wrong and you simply do not understand theism or religion at all. [/quote]

Going by what you’ve posted, I hit the nail on the head, at least when it comes to you. You must be one of the most immoral people around if the only reason to show compassion is fear of eternal flame.

Remembering that I’m an Atheist, by your logic, it makes no sense for me to have donated half my paycheck earlier this year to MSF, it makes no sense that I don’t run around taking what I want (i.e. material goods, women). And yet I manage just fine. And so do millions of other atheists.[/quote]

No you swing your hammer around wildly and miss. I am not a theist because I am scared of punishment. I am not going to tell you the basis for my belief and why because it’s very personal and you are a jerk and not mature enough to discuss my personal things with you.

Here is the average conversation with you:
Makavali: I don’t believe your invisible sky god exists, prove it.
pat: It’s not a sky god it’s just God but here you go there’s X, Y, and Z, which leads to A therefore God exists.
Makavali: That’s stupid, your just an idiot.

So that is the end all be all of your ability to argue or prove any points. Actually, you have never counter argued or made a point so I guess you are incapable of civil discussion and logical arguments. When you find your self in a corner, you just insult your way out.

The difference between you and me is when I have a question, I seek the answers. You just wait for some one to prove you wrong. And if you don’t like there argument, you just insult them.
Since I value my one immaturity at times, I don’t mind name calling back, but the tit-for-tat does get ridiculous quickly.

I would be less moral because you take the center of my morality away, then I have nothing to base it on. Perhaps you base your moral principals on thermodynamics, bread crumbs or wheat ever. If I take your basis for behaving morally a you’d behave less morally too. But as you proclaimed before you, like most atheists, are moral relativists. My morality is static.

872

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why we cant still worship Poseidon, Zeus, Apollo, and the like. I think people who gave up Polytheism for Christianity or another Abrahamic religion are weak mentally and can’t accept that there are gods for multiple things. It’s just common sense that if your on the high seas or in a forest you are in the realm of a different deity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zeus-greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg [/quote]

That’s been argued waaay back. About page 20, near the bottom I lay out some arguments. There is a huge difference between using deities to explain the unexplained and using a priori arguments to deduce that a single God, must necessarily exist.

873

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.

874

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…

875

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why we cant still worship Poseidon, Zeus, Apollo, and the like. I think people who gave up Polytheism for Christianity or another Abrahamic religion are weak mentally and can’t accept that there are gods for multiple things. It’s just common sense that if your on the high seas or in a forest you are in the realm of a different deity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zeus-greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg [/quote]

That’s been argued waaay back. About page 20, near the bottom I lay out some arguments. There is a huge difference between using deities to explain the unexplained and using a priori arguments to deduce that a single God, must necessarily exist.[/quote]

I hear you on that. I’ll say it is interesting that if you think about the Bible and how it has survived in one form or another, in one parts or many. Also interesting is that when thinking about things we know today as fact, people during that time were wrong about basically everything. But there is this one book, hundreds of pages long which has information that in one way or another is accurate or at the very least wasn’t just made up.

Thats either god’s work or silly bullshit used to govern people, my guess? At the very least a combination of the two if not entirely the latter.

876

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…
[/quote]

Take an example and lets discuss it…

877

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…
[/quote]

Take an example and lets discuss it…[/quote]

…allright, but i’m gonna turn in after this one. So what about the Pope’s stance on homosexuality, contraceptives and the child abuse issues plaging the Catholic Church and the way the Church deals with these issues? Is that good christian morality? 'Cos from where i’m standing, they need a good slap upside the head and a kick in the nuts for being archaic mysoginist assholes…

878

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…
[/quote]

Take an example and lets discuss it…[/quote]

…allright, but i’m gonna turn in after this one. So what about the Pope’s stance on homosexuality, contraceptives and the child abuse issues plaging the Catholic Church and the way the Church deals with these issues? Is that good christian morality? 'Cos from where i’m standing, they need a good slap upside the head and a kick in the nuts for being archaic mysoginist assholes…
[/quote]
Crap! I just had a nice long response to this and my browser took a shit and crashed. I get back to it…I jsut didn’t want you to feel ignored.

879

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
I guess I just don’t understand why we cant still worship Poseidon, Zeus, Apollo, and the like. I think people who gave up Polytheism for Christianity or another Abrahamic religion are weak mentally and can’t accept that there are gods for multiple things. It’s just common sense that if your on the high seas or in a forest you are in the realm of a different deity.

http://leonjackson.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/zeus-greek-mythology-687267_1024_768.jpg [/quote]

That’s been argued waaay back. About page 20, near the bottom I lay out some arguments. There is a huge difference between using deities to explain the unexplained and using a priori arguments to deduce that a single God, must necessarily exist.[/quote]

I hear you on that. I’ll say it is interesting that if you think about the Bible and how it has survived in one form or another, in one parts or many. Also interesting is that when thinking about things we know today as fact, people during that time were wrong about basically everything. But there is this one book, hundreds of pages long which has information that in one way or another is accurate or at the very least wasn’t just made up.

Thats either god’s work or silly bullshit used to govern people, my guess? At the very least a combination of the two if not entirely the latter.
[/quote]

Actually, a freind of mine gave me a Bible where they actually went back to the original documents and translated them directly to English word for word. It’s pretty different in a lot of ways…It’s actually quite cool.

880

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…this is why i think that christian morality, or religious morality, isn’t a way to lead a good life, but is meant to be used as an instrument to control the masses by the church. I think the bible itself is an instrument to control and manipulate the masses, and a powerful instrument at that…
[/quote]

It has been used in that manner, but that is a violation of the values of the church and the tenants laid out in the bible. Religious people can and will be jerks, and someone looking to screw with people they’ll use any means possible. That doesn’t mean that the whole thing is wrong or bad, because some have chose to use it’s power for personal gain or to be plain evil.[/quote]

…you’re obviously a man who makes his own mind up, and i’m sure there are many more believers like you who do the same, but on a whole institutionalized religion does not play nice…
[/quote]

Take an example and lets discuss it…[/quote]

…allright, but i’m gonna turn in after this one. So what about the Pope’s stance on homosexuality, contraceptives and the child abuse issues plaging the Catholic Church and the way the Church deals with these issues? Is that good christian morality? 'Cos from where i’m standing, they need a good slap upside the head and a kick in the nuts for being archaic mysoginist assholes…
[/quote]

First I wanted to add that organized religion is ultimately just a guide. A person’s faith journey is their own.

Ok, Let’s start with homosexuality. It’s a misconception conception that homosexuals aren’t welcome in the church. A practicing homosexual cannot receive the sacraments but they are allowed and encouraged to participate in prayer, the mass and things of that nature. Non-practicing homosexuals are welcome in to be in full communion with the church. The same rules apply to heteros gettin’ their groove on outside of marriage. This is actually in the catechism.

Contraceptives are a relatively new issue to the church, and I happen to disagree with their stance on the matter. But you have to understand that 1.2 billion people look to the Holy See for a guide to salvation. So they have to be careful, I do think this will eventually change or at least lax, but they have to be damn sure their not leading people in the wrong direction. It would be irresponsible for them to just say, “Yeah, do what you want, fuck away”. People as it is take an meter when given a centimeter. The repercussions especially in places like Africa, the Philippines and what not could be whole lots of unwanted kids and diseases. That problem is large enough already. So they have to be sure, because when they loosen something like that, people will go nuts.

The child abuse issue, is despicable in every way shape and form. the cover up by some of the bishops was just as bad. I can tell you that activity isn’t sanctioned by the church. Clergy are people and some are bad people. The damage they caused has been devastating. The whole church paid dearly for the horrid actions of the few. The whole church has taken corrective action, but if somebody wants to be evil, then they will be.