[quote]pat wrote:
There is nothing in the universe whose existence isn’t contingent upon something else, period…I said nothing.[/quote]
Proof.[/quote]
Easy point out one single thing that verifiability was not caused by something else. All you have to do is find one thing. Good luck. [/quote]
I don’t follow. You make claims about the existence of a space fairy, and I’m the one shouldered with the task of disproving it?
And all that aside, this proves what? How do you know it wasn’t Baal, Wotan, Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Thor or even the Golden Calf?[/quote]
Clearly your not following. So lets break it down… You quoted my quote which says this:
You retorted with with the word “proof”
Well, where do you want to start. Look around you and see if you can fins anthing thing that did not come from something else. Then expand that to the greater universe, find something that wasn’t caused. That’s it. The proof is all around you. All you have to do is find one thing, one little tiny thing whose existence was not cause by anything else.
So where in that quote do I make some claim about a “space fairy, Baal,Wotan, Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Thor or even the Golden Calf”? Right, I did not, so what the hell are you talking about?
…what i’ve learned from all of this is that something theoretical must exist and that we can’t know this something because, by definition, it must exist outside of time and space. Eventhough we can’t know anything about it, according to your logic it must have certain properties. Not being able to know this something, or even not being able to ever prove it’s existence, does not mean it can’t actually exist. Am i right so far?
[/quote]
Well hold on a minute. First there are plenty of things that exist with in space-time that we don’t know about. Second of all, something we know to exist, like black holes, theoretically that exist outside of space-time as they violate all the rules of it. Yet they exist and we can even measure how big they are.
Further, we can know things about it, however you have to concede it’s existence. Then we can worry about what properties it possesses. And again, by definition of what it is we can know things about it. At least two properties, it cannot be caused and it can and did cause.
It is simple to disprove the theory, just prove that just one premise is incorrect, and the argument meets it’s doom. I have heard some awesome the counter arguments as to the nature of causality and that causes don’t necessitates its effects.
But their proofs are more elusive to truth than than the argument from the point of cosmology. However, studying them is worth the time. You learn so much from the mere process. In the end the counter arguments can be countered quite easily.
The point of contingency nullified the biggest problem early philosophers had was time, the issue of contingency, and the empirical evidence that there is nothing in the universe that was not begotten by something else really strengthens the argument.
Hell, even in metaphysics, there are no metaphysical entities we are aware of, that did not come from somewhere else, save for God himself. Even the understanding of time is a metaphysical construct… [/quote]
…weren’t we talking about the uncaused cause, the only thing that exists outside of time and space?
[/quote]
You may have been, but anything not made of matter is not subject to time and space.
x/0= sideways 8. Or infinity. ← Not bullshit.
Second of all, its not conjecture if it is derived deductively which in this case it is. The only thing you can do is prove the premises to said conclusion are false. The premises lead directly to it’s conclusion. Conjecture is the stuff of a posteriori, empirical arguments.
I am not trying to baffle you. I am explaining my stance and argument.
Most arguments will blur the lines between science, philosophy and religion. Actually, all are just branches of philosophy.
Not sure what you are asking…Yes, I am religious, but I am not making a religious argument, I am making a philosophical one.
Do I know the nature of God? No, I know somethings but very little.[/quote]
…you’re not making it any clearer for me pat. To me it seems like you’re making this up as you go along. I’m sorry, but because of this i must say: i’m out…
[/quote]
I cool with you giving it up, but I can assure you I made nothing up. If I did, my arguments would be able to be disproven.
You may not like it, you may disagree, but it’s unfair to say I made it up…I am google proof. Put my arguments to the test anytime you want, they will survive. After all their not really mine, I am not smart enough to have invented them.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Using statistics tarnishes every religion/faith with the same brush. It’s like lumping all the extremists in with the others.
On the other hand, hardly anyone truly practises what they preach; many are hypocrites, or use their “faith” to justify extreme personal opinion.[/quote]
The chart is ridiculous. It’s just designed to make atheists feel good about themselves. Often where there is more trouble, there is more religion. Where there is strife people tend to be more religious.
The arrogant stupidity of this chart is that it’s trying to draw a line of causation to between faith and bad behavior where it is actually quite the opposite. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation and has been for decades. Faith gives people hope and there for they become more religious.
If you added the column for annual income, then you start to see the real correlation. When you are in a poor place you have a dichotomy. People often choose one of two things, either crime or religion.
When life is good, it’s easy to forget about God. When you have no where else to turn, what then? There will be a moment in your life where you are helpless, no one and nothing can help you out. In a sense your fucked no matter what. If you haven’t had that moment, you will. Just call me Nostradamus.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Using statistics tarnishes every religion/faith with the same brush. It’s like lumping all the extremists in with the others.
On the other hand, hardly anyone truly practises what they preach; many are hypocrites, or use their “faith” to justify extreme personal opinion.[/quote]
The chart is ridiculous. It’s just designed to make atheists feel good about themselves. Often where there is more trouble, there is more religion. Where there is strife people tend to be more religious.
The arrogant stupidity of this chart is that it’s trying to draw a line of causation to between faith and bad behavior where it is actually quite the opposite. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation and has been for decades. Faith gives people hope and there for they become more religious.
If you added the column for annual income, then you start to see the real correlation. When you are in a poor place you have a dichotomy. People often choose one of two things, either crime or religion.
When life is good, it’s easy to forget about God. When you have no where else to turn, what then? There will be a moment in your life where you are helpless, no one and nothing can help you out. In a sense your fucked no matter what. If you haven’t had that moment, you will. Just call me Nostradamus.[/quote]
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Using statistics tarnishes every religion/faith with the same brush. It’s like lumping all the extremists in with the others.
On the other hand, hardly anyone truly practises what they preach; many are hypocrites, or use their “faith” to justify extreme personal opinion.[/quote]
The chart is ridiculous. It’s just designed to make atheists feel good about themselves. Often where there is more trouble, there is more religion. Where there is strife people tend to be more religious.
The arrogant stupidity of this chart is that it’s trying to draw a line of causation to between faith and bad behavior where it is actually quite the opposite. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation and has been for decades. Faith gives people hope and there for they become more religious.
If you added the column for annual income, then you start to see the real correlation. When you are in a poor place you have a dichotomy. People often choose one of two things, either crime or religion.
When life is good, it’s easy to forget about God. When you have no where else to turn, what then? There will be a moment in your life where you are helpless, no one and nothing can help you out. In a sense your fucked no matter what. If you haven’t had that moment, you will. Just call me Nostradamus.[/quote]
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[/quote]
Your saying the poor are ignorant by default? Interesting prospective.
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[/quote]
Your saying the poor are ignorant by default? Interesting prospective. [/quote]
…have i ruffled your feathers? You’re typing too fast, me thinks…
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[/quote]
Your saying the poor are ignorant by default? Interesting prospective. [/quote]
…have i ruffled your feathers? You’re typing too fast, me thinks…[/quote]
Uh no, this statement “this is exactly why institutionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor” asserts that “ignorance” and “poorness” are related and institutionalized religion keeps them that way.
Care to back that shit up with something, because if you are asserting religion keeps people poor and ignorant. You really ought to. I mean, you don’t expect us to just take it at face value and let that be that? Especially since there’s tons of rich and smart religious people in the world too.
If I had feathers, they would’ve remained unruffled. Don’t project on me.
It is true that poor people tend to be drawn to faith more than rich people. There are several reasons for this:
Poor people (e.g. developing countries) tend to have a better perspective of life/family…whereas many people in more developed countries succumb to materialism/career (money/career is peoples “gods”). This is why Jesus said that you cannot slave for two masters, like materialism and God (“you stick to the one and despise the other”)
When you don’t have a lot in life, you tend to have more appreciation/gratitude. If you believed that God created you, you would have more appreciation for the life that He granted you, and would be less likely to “deviate” to the side of atheism.
People who are poor are less distracted by shallow pursuits in life like technology. This is one of the reasons why Jesus said to “keep your eye simple”. If you have too much “stuff” to worry about, you’ll have a lessor quality of life and no time to “think about God”.
I could go on…but that’s off the top of my head.
As Pat mentioned though, to put everyone in a “box” is not right. Not everyone who is religious is poorly educated etc.
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[/quote]
Your saying the poor are ignorant by default? Interesting prospective. [/quote]
…have i ruffled your feathers? You’re typing too fast, me thinks…[/quote]
Uh no, this statement “this is exactly why institutionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor” asserts that “ignorance” and “poorness” are related and institutionalized religion keeps them that way.
Care to back that shit up with something, because if you are asserting religion keeps people poor and ignorant. You really ought to. I mean, you don’t expect us to just take it at face value and let that be that? Especially since there’s tons of rich and smart religious people in the world too.
If I had feathers, they would’ve remained unruffled. Don’t project on me.[/quote]
…ignorance and poorness are related through religion. There is no reason to assume they are related without religion. That should’ve been clear to you within the context i wrote that, pat…
…throughout much of history, the clergy were the only ones who were literate. They were the ones who read the bible and explained the peasants what it meant and how to live. They were the ones who explained, by way of Jesus, that poverty was better than being rich…
…it’s also not surprising to me that the anti-science movement in the USA is fueled by religious zeal. Nowadays it’s willful ignorance, inspite of overwhelming scientific progress, that keeps the flock manageable. If you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it’s true…
…this is exactly why institionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor; so that they could maintain the strangle hold over them that’s needed to squeeze money and allegiance from them…
[/quote]
Your saying the poor are ignorant by default? Interesting prospective. [/quote]
…have i ruffled your feathers? You’re typing too fast, me thinks…[/quote]
Uh no, this statement “this is exactly why institutionalized religion kept the flock ignorant and poor” asserts that “ignorance” and “poorness” are related and institutionalized religion keeps them that way.
Care to back that shit up with something, because if you are asserting religion keeps people poor and ignorant. You really ought to. I mean, you don’t expect us to just take it at face value and let that be that? Especially since there’s tons of rich and smart religious people in the world too.
If I had feathers, they would’ve remained unruffled. Don’t project on me.[/quote]
…ignorance and poorness are related through religion. There is no reason to assume they are related without religion. That should’ve been clear to you within the context i wrote that, pat…
…throughout much of history, the clergy were the only ones who were literate. They were the ones who read the bible and explained the peasants what it meant and how to live. They were the ones who explained, by way of Jesus, that poverty was better than being rich…
…it’s also not surprising to me that the anti-science movement in the USA is fueled by religious zeal. Nowadays it’s willful ignorance, inspite of overwhelming scientific progress, that keeps the flock manageable. If you tell a lie often enough, people will believe it’s true…
[/quote]
Care to back this shit up with any facts? Or are you going to keep repeating this lie until I believe it?
What you wrote is complete bullshit, whether spawned by the atheist propaganda you adhere to or you flatly pulled it out of your ass. Back your shit up with something other than your word. Because your facts do not pan out.
For right now, you based on what you just said, are practicing not only willful ignorance, but flat fucking bigotry.
How does religion “keep the flock manageable”, based on what facts are you getting this crap?
What is the “lie” you are claiming is being repeated.
If I say atheists are arrogant, intellectually lazy, murdering sociopaths, that doesn’t make it true, just because some have behaved that way, does it?
Back your statements up, quit trying to ram your pre-programed propaganda down my throat, I am not that stupid.
Fellas , been reading thru the posts since the start of this thread. 2 things: 1.Religion can be defined as anything you do daily, weekly, …etc…he drinks coffee religiously, she attends church religiously. Having a religion in america is easy and not to say that Christianity is petty but people treat it as such. 2. We choose when to worship and how often and there are arguments concerning these petty things soo much that we have multitudes of denominations.
To choose to "respond " to a christian calling means taking on the responsibility of telling others the Good News concerning Christ our Saviour and letting the Holy Sprit do the work. God’s free will is just that you are free to respond or not. As the Video stated Billy Graham preached that hell is a separation from God FOR Eternity accept it or not. You can choose to believe there is no Godand you will either be proven right or wrong.
I have experienced a feeling that I could not explain other than being touched by a spirit…I choose to believe it is The Holy Spirit that is written about in the Bible. I can neither prove or disprove it. I have chosen to not attack people that believe differently than me and ask that they do the same for me. The human experience that has beeen written about for centuries by believers and non -believers is full of hoaxes and misguided statements from all sides, …choosing to spend hours reading and analyzing to prove yourself right in the eyes of another man is not of God, it is of Self…
One more thing, organized religion was established by man…just as buildings with no foundation have fallen so have many religions. Let’s not get wrapped up in what some priest or bishop or deacon or religious zealot has done, “god fearing” men exist in every RELIGION even atheism…to believe that all that is around us just appeared from nothing would “scare the Hell out of” me if I believed in NO god. Please do not be afraid of a true Christian…we are powerless without our GOD.
[quote]pcoberley wrote:
I have experienced a feeling that I could not explain other than being touched by a spirit…I choose to believe it is The Holy Spirit that is written about in the Bible. I can neither prove or disprove it. I have chosen to not attack people that believe differently than me and ask that they do the same for me. The human experience that has beeen written about for centuries by believers and non -believers is full of hoaxes and misguided statements from all sides, …choosing to spend hours reading and analyzing to prove yourself right in the eyes of another man is not of God, it is of Self…[/quote]
That can all be summed up in one verse from the bible - “no man can come to me unless the father…draws him”.
In other words, a person will always be an atheist unless they develop the right attitude and God helps to “open their eyes”. No amount of intellectual discussion would “convert” a person, it has to come from their heart (and God would do the rest).
A person who reads the bible with a closed mind and a view to criticize, rather than wanting to understand, will never really get to know God.
Very nice to claim to be one of the new age Christians, but you’re not the majority, and people like Jerry Falwell (disgusting man) and Pat Robertson (bordering on even worse) are far too influential and spread hate, ignorance, and stupidity like a disease.
I hope you are not referring to me; NO way on new age religion. As for Falwell and Robertson,… my point about how bad organized religion can be. But I think you give them too much credit, their own words send them back to the minority and the majority of Christians don’t agree with their world views.
Unfortunately in America the right to free speech brings the dumbest quotes to light, so be careful to not bash all because of one and before you go to sleep think back at all you said out loud and thank God you aren’t being taped.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Very nice to claim to be one of the new age Christians, but you’re not the majority, and people like Jerry Falwell (disgusting man) and Pat Robertson (bordering on even worse) are far too influential and spread hate, ignorance, and stupidity like a disease.[/quote]
You got a demographical map to back this claim up?
[quote]pcoberley wrote:
I have experienced a feeling that I could not explain other than being touched by a spirit…I choose to believe it is The Holy Spirit that is written about in the Bible. I can neither prove or disprove it. I have chosen to not attack people that believe differently than me and ask that they do the same for me. The human experience that has beeen written about for centuries by believers and non -believers is full of hoaxes and misguided statements from all sides, …choosing to spend hours reading and analyzing to prove yourself right in the eyes of another man is not of God, it is of Self…[/quote]
That can all be summed up in one verse from the bible - “no man can come to me unless the father…draws him”.
In other words, a person will always be an atheist unless they develop the right attitude and God helps to “open their eyes”. No amount of intellectual discussion would “convert” a person, it has to come from their heart (and God would do the rest).
A person who reads the bible with a closed mind and a view to criticize, rather than wanting to understand, will never really get to know God.[/quote]
I disagree. The Good Lord works in strange ways and never ever does what you’d expect.
