About Belief, Religion and God

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
241

[quote]Meatros wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Meatros wrote:

Then the argument you are currently pushing (Christian morality is the best) does not support the conclusion that there is an absolute source of morality.

[/quote]

Meatros, I’m using your arguments. Not mine.[/quote]

?

Then you are not disagreeing with me that morality is relative and your prior statement that you believe morality has an absolute source is false? I don’t think that’s correct.

My point is that your current tact is neither discrediting my position or supporting your contention. So why are you discussing it?[/quote]

The source of morality is the definition of Man. Whatever promotes Man as a rational animal is the Good. Whatever decreases Man as the rational animal is the Evil. The source of morality is the absolute nature of what a human being is.

To say that morality is relative can only be true if you mean relative to Man, unless you mean to state that man has no definition and the attendent corollary properties. In that case, you argue with perceived reality, which is insane.

Whether God is the ultimate source of morality or not, morality is absolute, and it depends upon the absolute nature of Man, Man as the rational thinking being. If God made Man (I think He did), then God is the ultimate source but that doesn’t matter. Morality is still absolute.

242

[quote]Meatros wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Meatros wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
If you don’t want to use christian theology, then don’t argue against Christians.

I’m asking for a rational justification, not a reiteration of irrationality.
[/quote]

No, you attempted to make a theological argument by careful selection of Christ’s words. I’m beginning to lose my patience…
[/quote]

I could make the same claim to you, in regards to the fulfillment of the law. The fact is, the law was the law, whether or not it is able to be stepped over now. This is a problem with trying to say that the law is absolute.[/quote]

Argh! Meatros! I’ve not been arguing that Old Testament morality and law was absolute. I’ve been arguing the opposite. I’ve been saying this whole time that it was unfullfilled. Incomplete. That is not me arguing absolute morality derived from Old Testament revelation. This is why I’ve talked of a progressive revelation and relationship. My basis for absolute morality is found in the New Testament, not the old.

At this point, I have to take a break.

243

Oh, and when I get back, we’ll start with number 6…You’ll have to wait for the numbers to cycle through 100 before starting over at one. Muhaha.

244

[quote]Sloth wrote:

At this point, I have to take a break.[/quote]

Me too, Almost quittin time at work and gasp! I actually have to get some done. LOL

V

245

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Argh! Meatros! I’ve not been arguing that Old Testament morality and law was absolute. I’ve been arguing the opposite. I’ve been saying this whole time that it was unfullfilled. Incomplete. That is not me arguing absolute morality derived from Old Testament revelation. This is why I’ve talked of a progressive revelation and relationship. My basis for absolute morality is found in the New Testament, not the old.

At this point, I have to take a break.[/quote]

So the ten commandments are not absolute? Seriously, this does not make sense. If these laws were not absolute, then why did Jesus need to ‘save’ mankind at all? How did mankind ‘sin’ if there was nothing to ‘sin’ against? This reads like you are obfuscating morality and what you mean by ‘absolute morality’. I think you need to be more clear.

Again, how can God say ‘X is wrong’, only to turn around and say that ‘X is not wrong’? The problem with progressive revelation is that it leaves you with no basis for morality, as I’ve explained. Further, since any moral decree from God would necessarily be arbitrary, why follow it?

246

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, and when I get back, we’ll start with number 6…You’ll have to wait for the numbers to cycle through 100 before starting over at one. Muhaha.[/quote]

No problem - I’ll just steal ‘6’ from whomever has it… :wink:

Seriously though, take whatever break you need. This stuff gets heavy and can be very tedious.

247

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Because, “Thou Shou shall not kill” was not meant to apply to every instance of one man taking another’s life. Jews and Christians understood what this language meant. To kill, is to unlawfully take life. It is absolute. There is lawful, and unlawful. This is actually rather obvious simply by reading the bible. One will understand that to “to kill” is specific. If I ‘kill’ an evil man in defense of myself or another, his death is his doing. If my nation is attacked, and we must destroy the capability of the enemy to attack us again, the lives of the innocent are on my enemies head. We are not obligated to accept extinction (though that would make things easier for ya =P) because our enemies have realized we are paralyzed with inaction.[/quote]

…but that is what relative means, isn’t it? There are rules, and there are exceptions to those rules = relativism. I don’t see the difference, tbh…
[/quote]

Think, murder.[/quote]

…i’m thinking collateral damage…[/quote]

Well, let me ask you. Are you a murderer if innocent women and children die as you fight Hitler’s regime? Or, is the wrong done to them, Hitler’s doing?[/quote]

…if i were a Allied bomber pilot carpet bombing Dresden in WW2, i’d consider myself a murderer. I’ll justify myself by telling myself it’s a necessary evil in order to stop the Nazi’s, but i’ll feel guilty nonetheless…

248

Let the break begin!

V

249

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?

250

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

In otherwords, your experiences shape your conscience.

V

251

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

In otherwords, your experiences shape your conscience.

V[/quote]

…yes, and it is an ongoing process…

252

[quote]Meatros wrote:

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
Things that define religion

  1. Central myths
  2. rituals
  3. a community
  4. code of ethics
  5. material expressions
  6. sacredness - people, places or things
  7. emotional experiences

Atheism comes close to a religion…[/quote]

Not really.

How does the disbelief in god lead to any of those things?[/quote]

Central myth is not part of religion either. Better have some proof that belief in God’s existence is a myth.

253

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

Your getting warmer. My point in this exercise, is that morality in it’s most basic form, good v. evil is not a physical construct. Even an atheist has to appeal to the metaphysical for moral judgments.
Morality, is not relative while there are relative constructs with in a society made to appeal to our sense of morality, it does not define it. I am about to engage in the exercise myself. My only regret is that I cannot get to every post I wanted to. There just is not enough time.

254

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

In otherwords, your experiences shape your conscience.

V[/quote]
Paritally, experiences that appeal to your sense of morality can shape your conscience?

255

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

Your getting warmer. My point in this exercise, is that morality in it’s most basic form, good v. evil is not a physical construct. Even an atheist has to appeal to the metaphysical for moral judgments.
Morality, is not relative while there are relative constructs with in a society made to appeal to our sense of morality, it does not define it. I am about to engage in the exercise myself. My only regret is that I cannot get to every post I wanted to. There just is not enough time.[/quote]

…that’s simply not true. At no point in my adult life have i appealed to the metaphysical for moral judgment, ever…

256

As promised here are my definitions of good, evil and morality.
An evil act is an act perpetrated on a self or another living thing that does harm to that life. A good act is an act that enriches a self or another living thing. For an act to be ‘good’ or ‘evil’ the actor must have freewill. In other words they have to have been able to choose to do good, or not, or to do evil or not. Morality is the sense to know the difference between the two constructs.

So evil is willful harm, and good is willful enlivenment. Morality is the wisdom to know the difference when behaving or experiencing.

257

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

Your getting warmer. My point in this exercise, is that morality in it’s most basic form, good v. evil is not a physical construct. Even an atheist has to appeal to the metaphysical for moral judgments.
Morality, is not relative while there are relative constructs with in a society made to appeal to our sense of morality, it does not define it. I am about to engage in the exercise myself. My only regret is that I cannot get to every post I wanted to. There just is not enough time.[/quote]

…that’s simply not true. At no point in my adult life have i appealed to the metaphysical for moral judgment, ever…
[/quote]
Bullshit. Ever had a thought, feeling, felt loved, hated? Ever solved and equation in your head or dreamed. All metaphysical constructs. Even if I knew how, I could not arrange the chemicals in your head to have a specific thought, idea, motive, enthusiasm, etc.

Everybody deals in the metaphysical, they have to. It not only as real as the material world, it is more. You can deductively prove something in metaphysics, you could not make a logical argument to prove anything physical actually exists…This may all be a figment of your imagination and you can’t prove otherwise…Try it.

258

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

…conscience…[/quote]

You can do better…You brought this all up after all.[/quote]

…you asked for the basis of my morality. The only basis for my morality is my conscience, which may be tempered by the consequences the law of my country attaches to certain actions, but that’s it really. I have no need for another source of morality…[/quote]

What is your conscience? I am seeking definitions not sources. Definitions will reveal the sources, so I am not worried about where you get it.
You think you get it from your conscience what drives the morality of your conscience? Collective experience, duty, feeling, sex? [/quote]

…you got me thinking here… it’s hard to pinpoint… my past experiences, what i think it means to be human/a man. I know beforehand whether an action will make me feel guilty or upset with myself, and based on that i won’t instigate such an action. It’s not what i was taught as a child, but formed through the years based in experience and what i find fair and just and honest…

…does that answer your question?
[/quote]

Your getting warmer. My point in this exercise, is that morality in it’s most basic form, good v. evil is not a physical construct. Even an atheist has to appeal to the metaphysical for moral judgments.
Morality, is not relative while there are relative constructs with in a society made to appeal to our sense of morality, it does not define it. I am about to engage in the exercise myself. My only regret is that I cannot get to every post I wanted to. There just is not enough time.[/quote]

…that’s simply not true. At no point in my adult life have i appealed to the metaphysical for moral judgment, ever…
[/quote]
Bullshit. Ever had a thought, feeling, felt loved, hated? Ever solved and equation in your head or dreamed. All metaphysical constructs. Even if I knew how, I could not arrange the chemicals in your head to have a specific thought, idea, motive, enthusiasm, etc.

Everybody deals in the metaphysical, they have to. It not only as real as the material world, it is more. You can deductively prove something in metaphysics, you could not make a logical argument to prove anything physical actually exists…This may all be a figment of your imagination and you can’t prove otherwise…Try it.[/quote]

…i misunderstood Pat, i generally use the term “metaphysical” in a divine or spiritual sense, not abstract thought. But even seen in that light, i don’t get how this relates to anything godly or absolute. Explain?

259

[quote]pat wrote:
As promised here are my definitions of good, evil and morality.
An evil act is an act perpetrated on a self or another living thing that does harm to that life. A good act is an act that enriches a self or another living thing. For an act to be ‘good’ or ‘evil’ the actor must have freewill. In other words they have to have been able to choose to do good, or not, or to do evil or not. Morality is the sense to know the difference between the two constructs.

So evil is willful harm, and good is willful enlivenment. Morality is the wisdom to know the difference when behaving or experiencing.

[/quote]

…tying in with the other post, where does religion or god enter the fray?

260

1182×2412 288 KB

To illustrate:

Edit: it’s unreadable. Here’s the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/