About Belief, Religion and God

Sloth · December 16, 2009, 7:19pm

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
See what you seem to be missing here is that I myself subscribe to a belief system which is unprovable to anyone. I cannot prove it, yet the difference is I don’t want anyone to believe as I do. [/quote]

Then you’d have nothing to say on this thread. Instead, you’ve stated multiple times that our religions are “bullshit.” Then there’s the fact that you’d rather our faith mirror your own in outlook. If you don’t want us to believe as you do, you’d have no dog in this fight.[/quote]

Unfortunately you are wrong yet again. As I have stated several times, the reason I openly denounce orgainzed major religions is that they interfere with my life and the lives of other innocents throughout history, including thier own members. I don’t have any problem coexisting with a religion if thier group has a motto of “we don’t ask people to join us, if someone wants to join us they will” Thats cool and noninvasive. Stupid, but noninvasive. Unfortunately that isn’t how christianity or the muslim faith operates, so I do indeed care about that aspect of your belief. The easiest way for me to get you to stop pushing your religion on me (not you personally) is to get you to think logically and renounce it as I have. I’m not asking you to believe what I believe, just that whatever you believe, leave it to yourself unless I ask you about it.

It’s like that game you played with your brother or sister when you were little, one would stand there swinging thier fist in a big circle and say I’m not hitting you. Well thats fine as long as you are standing still, but if your swinging your fist and you are walking into me, well then I’m going to take offense to it and tell you to get the hell out of my face. I find Hinduism and Buddhism to be less intrusive than christianity or islam, it could also just be that I have far less exposure to those two religions do to my region. They could be equally as pushy on a local level.

V[/quote]

You ARE arguing for others to join your belief system. Something you don’t believe we should do. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be trying to convince me. And you’ll never get us to renounce our faith. We are here to stay. Learn some coping mechanisms, it’ll be better for your blood pressure.

ephrem · December 16, 2009, 7:20pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

…lol, you are right, just like the 1100 or so recognized strains of Christianity that all think they are right and the other ones are not, there are many shades of “i do not believe God exists” out there…

Vegita · December 16, 2009, 7:21pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

Do you even realize how stupid you are making yourself look by not grasping the idea that there is no group called “atheists” there is no religion called “atheism”. Seriously, say I made a word up for any person who didn’t believe in puff the magic dragon. I’d call that person, “normal” now if you took all the people that did believe in puff the magic dragon and called them puffiests, that would be a group with a common trait, believeing in something nontangible. It doesn’t mean that all the people who don’t believe in puff the magic dragon are identical clones who think and act the same way. It’s not like beleiving in the sun, or in water, or in DNA. So not believing in god is no more strange than not bleiving in the silver surfer.

The reason we can lump you behaviorally with other christians is because the very premise of your religion is how one should and should not behave. The only thing atheists have in common would be that they don’t let an imaginary being tell them how to behave. How does that make them have a behavioral code or that they should all act in a similar manner. They are not groupable behaviorally which is what you keep trying to do over and over. It’s retarded.

V

Sloth · December 16, 2009, 7:21pm

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

…lol, you are right, just like the 1100 or so recognized strains of Christianity that all think they are right and the other ones are not, there are many shades of “i do not believe God exists” out there…[/quote]

Yeah, but we don’t pretend at relativism. So, we know where we stand with each other.

Sloth · December 16, 2009, 7:25pm

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

Do you even realize how stupid you are making yourself look by not grasping the idea that there is no group called “atheists” there is no religion called “atheism”.
V[/quote]

There is no group called atheists? Geeze, we’re all religious now.
According to at least Orion there is a sect of atheism called Political religion. It was I who tried to correct him. Pointing out that this wansn’t religion, but state atheism. I’ll accept your support of my view.

spyoptic · December 16, 2009, 7:35pm

Things that define religion

Central myths
rituals
a community
code of ethics
material expressions
sacredness - people, places or things
emotional experiences

Atheism comes close to a religion…

Vegita · December 16, 2009, 7:36pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:
See what you seem to be missing here is that I myself subscribe to a belief system which is unprovable to anyone. I cannot prove it, yet the difference is I don’t want anyone to believe as I do. [/quote]

Then you’d have nothing to say on this thread. Instead, you’ve stated multiple times that our religions are “bullshit.” Then there’s the fact that you’d rather our faith mirror your own in outlook. If you don’t want us to believe as you do, you’d have no dog in this fight.[/quote]

Unfortunately you are wrong yet again. As I have stated several times, the reason I openly denounce orgainzed major religions is that they interfere with my life and the lives of other innocents throughout history, including thier own members. I don’t have any problem coexisting with a religion if thier group has a motto of “we don’t ask people to join us, if someone wants to join us they will” Thats cool and noninvasive. Stupid, but noninvasive. Unfortunately that isn’t how christianity or the muslim faith operates, so I do indeed care about that aspect of your belief. The easiest way for me to get you to stop pushing your religion on me (not you personally) is to get you to think logically and renounce it as I have. I’m not asking you to believe what I believe, just that whatever you believe, leave it to yourself unless I ask you about it.

It’s like that game you played with your brother or sister when you were little, one would stand there swinging thier fist in a big circle and say I’m not hitting you. Well thats fine as long as you are standing still, but if your swinging your fist and you are walking into me, well then I’m going to take offense to it and tell you to get the hell out of my face. I find Hinduism and Buddhism to be less intrusive than christianity or islam, it could also just be that I have far less exposure to those two religions do to my region. They could be equally as pushy on a local level.

V[/quote]

You ARE arguing for others to join your belief system. Something you don’t believe we should do. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be trying to convince me. And you’ll never get us to renounce our faith. We are here to stay. Learn some coping mechanisms, it’ll be better for your blood pressure.[/quote]

This is going nicley actually, I’m not doing this for you, You are definately never going to renounce your faith. But there may be those reading these exchanges who might not share your condition. I have only laid out my beliefs after repeated requests by pat. I do not feel my beliefs are even relevant to this discussion and therefore I hardly think you can claim I am trying to get anyone to subscribe to my belief system.

Further, I am defending that an atheist has a better moral highground than someone who gets thier morals from a religion. So if one were to try to pass morals, my opinion is that an athiest would have more of a right to do so than a religious person. I don’t get my morals from atheists or religious people I have already stated where my morals come from, to not seem like I am trying to get you to believe what I believe, I will not post them again, they are irrelevant to the debate. An atheist would likley think that my belief system is just as wrong as yours but since I do not ask them to believe it also, they most likley would never know and would never care. If one did try to talk me out of my belief system, I would have a much easier time defending my position because it is based on personal experience, including meditation states, so they would be unable to verify if my experiences were in fact real or not and would have to leave me to my word.

V

ephrem · December 16, 2009, 7:37pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

…lol, you are right, just like the 1100 or so recognized strains of Christianity that all think they are right and the other ones are not, there are many shades of “i do not believe God exists” out there…[/quote]

Yeah, but we don’t pretend at relativism. So, we know where we stand with each other.[/quote]

…no, you don’t pretend: you practise it. There’s a commandment that says: “Thou shalt not kill” but inspite of that commandment there are Christians [on this board] who support capital punishment. They support their government going to war, killing thousands of innocent women and children in the process. How is that not moral relativism?

Vegita · December 16, 2009, 7:40pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Vegita wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

Do you even realize how stupid you are making yourself look by not grasping the idea that there is no group called “atheists” there is no religion called “atheism”.
V[/quote]

There is no group called atheists? Geeze, we’re all religious now.
According to at least Orion there is a sect of atheism called Political religion. It was I who tried to correct him. Pointing out that this wansn’t religion, but state atheism. I’ll accept your support of my view.[/quote]

Ok smartey pants, they should be easily defined then. Care to tell me where they originated? What are thier rules for membership? Who is thier leader? What gets you kicked out of the club? What is thier purpose? How long have they existed? What is thier group structure, is there one leader with a bunch of followers? Is there levels of membership? Just a few to get you started off, you can use google too, it’s an open book test.

V

ephrem · December 16, 2009, 7:41pm

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
Things that define religion

Central myths
rituals
a community
code of ethics
material expressions
sacredness - people, places or things
emotional experiences

Atheism comes close to a religion…[/quote]

…i’ll bite:

The absence of belief in a god does not a myth make.
There is no ritual involved with this absence of belief in a god
There may be an atheist organisation, but a community? I don’t know one…
Yes.
No.
No.
Hardly.

…iow, atheism doesn’t come even close to being a religion…

Meatros · December 16, 2009, 7:45pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Answered above. I spoke exactly to this. And don’t assume you COULD have addressed the outsider any better. [/quote]

I was asking for clarification on the above and your response is to say it was answered above?

As to assumptions - I did address the ‘outsider’ better, and further, in the case I’m mentioning it wasn’t really an outsider since Joshua invaded and conquered them.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Addressed this specifically. [/quote]

Not very well, IMO. You simply stated that it occurred and is part of doctrine. You did not explain how it’s logically consistent, this is where I was aiming my questions at.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Because while revelation is always intrusive upon human history, for the most part we are the masters of human history. Time and again you will see major biblical figures fail God. They are not puppets on his string. They maintain free will. We have free will and natural laws to live with. We are, outside of minimally intrusive revelation, masters of not only our individual fates, but the masters of the earthly fates of others.[/quote]

I’m not sure what free will has to do with this or with failing god. Why not reveal it all at once, instead of peacemeal after other civilizations discover better moral codes? It doesn’t make any sense. Also, if this were the case, why reveal it at all - since any revelation would necessarily be incomplete. All it does is confuse the issue and compromise morality. I could get into free will here, but I think at this point it’s not fully relevant (or it doesn’t appear to be to me).

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Lying is always wrong. And, addressed your statement. [/quote]

So, in the case where you are living in an occupied country, during WWII, and you are hiding Jews to protect them from the Holocaust and some Nazi’s come to your door and specifically ask you if you are hiding any Jews - is it moral to lie to them or is it moral to tell the truth and to let the Nazi’s take them away to the death camps?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’m not simply a naturalist. Therefore, I’m not consigned to your worldview. I’m also a supernaturalist. So if baboons do this or that, I don’t base morality off of it.[/quote]

I’m not sure how this addresses my point about what we see in nature. Nature shows us relative morality. How do you explain that, when we should see absolute morality?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I base my morality on a Supernatural diety. [/quote]

Technically no, you don’t. You base your morality off of the interpretation of what a bunch of holy men supposedly said about the supernatural deities morality.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You could try the might makes right without God thing with me.[/quote]

The question is, if that’s legitimate, then there is no difference between a supernatural morality and a natural morality (at least one that employs a might makes right schema). So why believe there is a supernatural morality?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
But, it doesn’t negate that no matter who wins on earth, the right and wrong will be determined, and rewarded or punished for etenity, accordingly.[/quote]

What it negates is the idea that ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are objective terms. They become arbitrary - based off the whims of a god. Why is rape wrong? because it displeases god. What if it pleased god? then it would be good.

Even if we accept that god exists, why accept this morality? Because he threatens us? Extortion is not a good reason for accepting the morality of a deity - especially when that deity could just torture us anyway.

Are you familiar with the Joshua Challenge?

Meatros · December 16, 2009, 7:48pm

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
Things that define religion

Central myths
rituals
a community
code of ethics
material expressions
sacredness - people, places or things
emotional experiences

Atheism comes close to a religion…[/quote]

Not really.

How does the disbelief in god lead to any of those things?

Meatros · December 16, 2009, 7:49pm

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

…lol, you are right, just like the 1100 or so recognized strains of Christianity that all think they are right and the other ones are not, there are many shades of “i do not believe God exists” out there…[/quote]

Yeah, but we don’t pretend at relativism. So, we know where we stand with each other.[/quote]

…no, you don’t pretend: you practise it. There’s a commandment that says: “Thou shalt not kill” but inspite of that commandment there are Christians [on this board] who support capital punishment. They support their government going to war, killing thousands of innocent women and children in the process. How is that not moral relativism?
[/quote]

Not to mention the fact that God is supposedly exempt from the ‘absolute’ morality (another thing that doesn’t make sense).

Sloth · December 16, 2009, 8:04pm

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[…actually, the cop-out usually is, “that’s not the one true atheism!”[/quote]

You made a series of typos. Now, because we’re best pals, I took the liberty of fixing them for you.[/quote]

…lol, you are right, just like the 1100 or so recognized strains of Christianity that all think they are right and the other ones are not, there are many shades of “i do not believe God exists” out there…[/quote]

Yeah, but we don’t pretend at relativism. So, we know where we stand with each other.[/quote]

…no, you don’t pretend: you practise it. There’s a commandment that says: “Thou shalt not kill” but inspite of that commandment there are Christians [on this board] who support capital punishment. They support their government going to war, killing thousands of innocent women and children in the process. How is that not moral relativism?
[/quote]

Because, “Thou Shou shall not kill” was not meant to apply to every instance of one man taking another’s life. Jews and Christians understood what this language meant. To kill, is to unlawfully take life. It is absolute. There is lawful, and unlawful. This is actually rather obvious simply by reading the bible. One will understand that to “to kill” is specific. If I ‘kill’ an evil man in defense of myself or another, his death is his doing. If my nation is attacked, and we must destroy the capability of the enemy to attack us again, the lives of the innocent are on my enemy’s head. We are not obligated to accept extinction (though that would make things easier for ya =P) because our enemies have realized we are paralyzed with inaction.

Meatros · December 16, 2009, 7:53pm

Sloth, do you believe it can be a good and holy act to kill a baby or a child?

Sloth · December 16, 2009, 7:53pm

[quote]Meatros wrote: