Abortion Debate?

[pat]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

What is a person? What is a human?

Once we agree on a definition, we can decide what meets the criteria of that definition, and what does not.

For example, would a severed human head, kept alive in a lab, qualify as a “person,” so long as it gave the appearance of being conscious and aware? And if so, what about a brain in a jar, kept alive in the same manner, so long as the EEG continued to detect activity?

An embryo in cryogenic storage is structurally no different from one on its way down the Fallopian tube to the uterine lining. Are they both people?

And once we start talking about cloning, it becomes very confusing. Yes, human cloning is currently illegal, but that, like abortion law, is subject to change.

At what point does the genetic material taken from the nucleus of a parent cell attain personhood? From the moment it is implanted in an egg? From the moment chemicals are introduced to induce meiosis? From the moment it is implanted into a uterus? When?

I’m jumping ahead of myself. Let us all first agree on the definition of a person. Failing that, we continue to talk in circles.[/quote]

When defining what makes a person you get into very subjective definitions. By many definitions I have heard in the past, there many folks existing outside the womb that do not qualify as “people”. I restrict my view to the protection of the human animal. The human animal begins it existence at conception. Now some have broken down the “event” of conception into microstages. I am referring to the completion of the conception event, which happens quickly. Once the act of conception is comeplete, you have a human.

[pat]

[quote]Christine wrote:
pat wrote:
Christine wrote:
You think it is the only question that matters. It is, in my opinion, not.

But no, I do not think a fetus qualifies as a person.

Good now we are getting some where…What other questions matter?

If it is not a person, what is it?

I will concede that it is a developing human. As in it has the potential to become human. The potential to become a person. I do not concede that all human life has the same value. I honestly wish it did, but it currently does not. So long as all human life is not valued equally, I do not wish abortion to become illegal.
[/quote]

We are all developinghumans. We don’t stop developing in some form until death.

Which humans are more valuable than others…Dang Hitler

Unlike you, I can not equate the suffering of a baby being boiled to death or child abuse of any kind to that of the termination of a pregnancy.

I can show you more gross pictures. Or movie like the “Silent Scream” showing a baby writhing in agony as it is being chopped up? Just because you cannot here the scream does not meanthe suffering does not exist.

I am done with this as it really doesn’t get us anywhere.

Wimp! Sure it is…head way on emotionally charged topics such as abortion is slow because people get blindsided by emotion. But emotion is fleeting.

[/quote]

[pat]

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
pat wrote:
EmilyQ wrote:
Skate around it? Avoid at all costs? WTF? Is this a joke? We’ve tromped right up to it again and again. The answer is NO, the early fetus is not a person.

The picture you posted, Pat? Was not a person. TROMP TROMP TROMP.

I agree with Christine that this only serves to reinforce the despair that leaves me helplessly supporting legal abortion.

Ha! I know you only said that to rile me up, you damn well it was too a human. It even had arms, legs and a head. To allege otherwise is simply dishonest because you’re just damn determined to win cone hell or high water. I am more interested in the truth.

Win what? There’s no win here. If there is a win to be had, it is already mine. Remember? Abortion is legal. There are not more unwanted babies straining the already-strained system, and some babies will remain unborn and therefore will never be abused. The unwanted need not be fretted over in even greater numbers.

I entered the discussion looking for a way for you to have what is important to you without losing those things I value. I admitted early on that I find abortion “an evil,” and that it disturbs me.

But that doesn’t mean that the tissue you posted meets my definition of a person. Frankly, it looked more like a bloody, grotesquely distorted Casper the Friendly Ghost.
[/quote]

That tissue had arms, legs, a head. Hardly a tissue. muscle is a tissue, something that contains it’s own autonomous set if tissues is something else.

[pat]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Well, jeez, Push, if Mitz, Cricket, Christine and Emily are all coming, I say we dispense with the arm wrestling, and go with Christine’s original suggestion of naked twister.

I don’t know how that will settle anything, but it sure sounds like a lot more fun than arguing about abortion.

Alright by me.

BTW, Mitz and Christine are one and the same femme fatale. That’s only a total of three women. They are hopelessly outmatched and will have to bring (female) reinforcements be it either for the arm wrestling or the naked Twister.

Ahhhhh…if only all these political threads could end this way. Am I the consummate peacemaker or what?

Tell the Nobel committee to send my prize to:

Push Winchester Harder
Northwest Montana, U.S.A

Use UPS as Fedex only comes out here twice a week.[/quote]

Did I mention I love Montana? I want to go camping there, smoke a big fat one next to a river and postulate life. Of course after a hellatious set of dead lifts.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]pat wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

When I consider this issue, I consider the situation of the mother, I don’t consider the fetus. The mother comes first for me.

Pat has devolved this discussion as I had mentioned to Push earlier who didn’t seem to pick up on Pat’s vitriol.

Courts do decide personhood all the time in regards to inheritance and even traffic disputes, not just murder. And so you all know, they have different answers depending on circumstance and the judge.

I also place a higher value on a mother than I do on a fetus.

I dread if abortion were ever to become illegal.

I don’t know if I would choose it for myself. I probably would not unless there were some medical tragedy about to occur.

making abortion illegal would be a tragedy.

My appreciation to those of you who posted your beliefs in a civil and enlightening manner. I have a greater understanding for your position. It hasn’t changed my belief, but I more greatly respect your reasons for holding on to your beliefs.

The irony here is your choice of words. You value the life and well being of the “mother”. A childless woman cannot be referred to as a mother as they have no children. So, if the carrier of said fetus is a mother than by definition alone, the fetus is in fact not only a human being, but that woman’s own child.

So if the fetus is not human, then the carrier is no a “mother” otherwise you are creating a self refuting argument. In which you are admitting in tandem that abortion is the killing of a child but that not allowing such an act is a tragedy. To me the killing of a person is a tragedy. Especially senselessly killing the innocent. [/quote]

semantics is a poor way to try and prove a point

I was trying to be respectful of those who think differently than I do in regards to abortion but if you require bluntness than fine.

I value the pregnant woman more than the fetus

there you go

[pat]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
pat wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

When I consider this issue, I consider the situation of the mother, I don’t consider the fetus. The mother comes first for me.

Pat has devolved this discussion as I had mentioned to Push earlier who didn’t seem to pick up on Pat’s vitriol.

Courts do decide personhood all the time in regards to inheritance and even traffic disputes, not just murder. And so you all know, they have different answers depending on circumstance and the judge.

I also place a higher value on a mother than I do on a fetus.

I dread if abortion were ever to become illegal.

I don’t know if I would choose it for myself. I probably would not unless there were some medical tragedy about to occur.

making abortion illegal would be a tragedy.

My appreciation to those of you who posted your beliefs in a civil and enlightening manner. I have a greater understanding for your position. It hasn’t changed my belief, but I more greatly respect your reasons for holding on to your beliefs.

The irony here is your choice of words. You value the life and well being of the “mother”. A childless woman cannot be referred to as a mother as they have no children. So, if the carrier of said fetus is a mother than by definition alone, the fetus is in fact not only a human being, but that woman’s own child.

So if the fetus is not human, then the carrier is no a “mother” otherwise you are creating a self refuting argument. In which you are admitting in tandem that abortion is the killing of a child but that not allowing such an act is a tragedy. To me the killing of a person is a tragedy. Especially senselessly killing the innocent.

semantics is a poor way to try and prove a point

I was trying to be respectful of those who think differently than I do in regards to abortion but if you require bluntness than fine.

I value the pregnant woman more than the fetus

there you go

[/quote]

They were your words and I highly doubt you were overly concerned about the feelings of others. I do not demand bluntness or anything for that matter, because I cannot. I prefer honesty not blinded by emotion, but it is not incumbent on you to give it as this is just an internet forum.
It seems perhaps that you were offended by my bluntness, but I not going to sugar-coat the truth to make people feel good. Things are what they are and I will say them as they are whether it’s a nice way or not.
Words mean things use them wisely.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]pat wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
pat wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

When I consider this issue, I consider the situation of the mother, I don’t consider the fetus. The mother comes first for me.

Pat has devolved this discussion as I had mentioned to Push earlier who didn’t seem to pick up on Pat’s vitriol.

Courts do decide personhood all the time in regards to inheritance and even traffic disputes, not just murder. And so you all know, they have different answers depending on circumstance and the judge.

I also place a higher value on a mother than I do on a fetus.

I dread if abortion were ever to become illegal.

I don’t know if I would choose it for myself. I probably would not unless there were some medical tragedy about to occur.

making abortion illegal would be a tragedy.

My appreciation to those of you who posted your beliefs in a civil and enlightening manner. I have a greater understanding for your position. It hasn’t changed my belief, but I more greatly respect your reasons for holding on to your beliefs.

The irony here is your choice of words. You value the life and well being of the “mother”. A childless woman cannot be referred to as a mother as they have no children. So, if the carrier of said fetus is a mother than by definition alone, the fetus is in fact not only a human being, but that woman’s own child.

So if the fetus is not human, then the carrier is no a “mother” otherwise you are creating a self refuting argument. In which you are admitting in tandem that abortion is the killing of a child but that not allowing such an act is a tragedy. To me the killing of a person is a tragedy. Especially senselessly killing the innocent.

semantics is a poor way to try and prove a point

I was trying to be respectful of those who think differently than I do in regards to abortion but if you require bluntness than fine.

I value the pregnant woman more than the fetus

there you go

They were your words and I highly doubt you were overly concerned about the feelings of others. I do not demand bluntness or anything for that matter, because I cannot. I prefer honesty not blinded by emotion, but it is not incumbent on you to give it as this is just an internet forum.
It seems perhaps that you were offended by my bluntness, but I not going to sugar-coat the truth to make people feel good. Things are what they are and I will say them as they are whether it’s a nice way or not.
Words mean things use them wisely.[/quote]

yes… “use them wisely”

but I not going to sugar-coat the truth to make people feel good.

and you need to not be blinded by emotion

[katzenjammer]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

yes… “use them wisely”

[/quote]

I hate to butt in here; however, it’s worth pointing out that you forgot the preceding “words mean things…”

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

yes… “use them wisely”

I hate to butt in here; however, it’s worth pointing out that you forgot the preceding “words mean things…”[/quote]

haha!

whoops… I missed that one.
(great use of the semi-colon)

[Makavali]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
and you need to not be blinded by emotion[/quote]

No offense, but…

Pot, kettle?

As soon as someone disagrees with you, you resort to backhanded personal attacks. That smacks of emotion.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
and you need to not be blinded by emotion

No offense, but…

Pot, kettle?

As soon as someone disagrees with you, you resort to backhanded personal attacks. That smacks of emotion.[/quote]

If I have done that on this thread then yes you can definitely call me out.

but make sure it isn’t that someone has misinterpreted a very clumsy post

[Makavali]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
and you need to not be blinded by emotion

No offense, but…

Pot, kettle?

As soon as someone disagrees with you, you resort to backhanded personal attacks. That smacks of emotion.

If I have done that on this thread then yes you can definitely call me out.

but make sure it isn’t that someone has misinterpreted a very clumsy post[/quote]

Perhaps not in this thread, but you should take your own advice before handing it out.

But at the same time, feel free to call me out on shit I do. I like to think I can learn from it most of the time.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Makavali wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
and you need to not be blinded by emotion

No offense, but…

Pot, kettle?

As soon as someone disagrees with you, you resort to backhanded personal attacks. That smacks of emotion.

If I have done that on this thread then yes you can definitely call me out.

but make sure it isn’t that someone has misinterpreted a very clumsy post

Perhaps not in this thread, but you should take your own advice before handing it out.

But at the same time, feel free to call me out on shit I do. I like to think I can learn from it most of the time.[/quote]

How about we leave this thread to this topic and if you have issue with me you can PM me as I have PMed you.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…How about we leave this thread to this topic…

The topic is now arm wrestling and naked Twister. Are you in?
[/quote]

careful I may have to backhand you if you disagree with me

[Makavali]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…How about we leave this thread to this topic…

The topic is now arm wrestling and naked Twister. Are you in?

careful I may have to backhand you if you disagree with me

[/quote]

Wear a ring, it makes the backhand more pimpish.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…How about we leave this thread to this topic…

The topic is now arm wrestling and naked Twister. Are you in?

careful I may have to backhand you if you disagree with me

If you try backhanding me during a game of naked Twister you can bet your big beautiful bust that you would abort your chance of winning the game.

[/quote]

oh I see how you worked that all in

nah it’s all good. The reports of my being vicious and low are just mutterings from the mob.

I do cheat while playing Twister though

[pat]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
…How about we leave this thread to this topic…

The topic is now arm wrestling and naked Twister. Are you in?
[/quote]

I would dominate the twister naked or not, I am more flexible than many eight year old girls.

My brachialis would never forgive me for arm wrestling…The thought of it makes it throb.