Abortion Debate?

[malonetd]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Christine wrote:
…Politically, like many things, I think it should be left to the State.

Civics lesson: in the United States of America “the State” begins with “We the People”.

And the most neglected, if not out and out flouted, of any of the constitutional Amendments says, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”[/quote]

WHAT?! That’s sooo 18th century. Nobody follows that shit anymore, push.

[PRCalDude]

[quote]tedro wrote:
pat wrote:
tedro wrote:
blazindave wrote:
Like i said, enlighten me.

Bear with me, this is going to take a number of exchanges. Don’t spout off and make any more ridiculous claims and I’ll walk you through it.

First, why is murder wrong?

Eeek, this gets into meta ethics…That’s a fun discussion, but breaking it down to good and evil and defining the two is laborious.

It’s hard to have a discussion on the ethics of abortion without touching on some meta ethics, but it need not get too deep. I didn’t ask if murder was wrong, I am simply going to begin with the assumption that we will all agree that it is.

So long as we can agree on that, the subject will remain one of applied ethics, but we still must begin with some common ground, thus the question.[/quote]

I think we can get around it in this discussion since we all agree that murder is wrong, so far. I’m cautiously optimistic that we can avoid discussing meta ethics.

[Varqanir]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I think we can get around it in this discussion since we all agree that murder is wrong, so far. I’m cautiously optimistic that we can avoid discussing meta ethics. [/quote]

We can agree that murder, as it is commonly understood (i.e., the malicious, premeditated, and unlawful killing of another human being) is usually wrong.

If so, then we can also agree that if the killing is not unlawful, not premeditated, not malicious, and not of another human being, then no murder has been committed.

The burden is on the pro-life crowd to prove that abortion meets all four conditions. The burden is likewise on the pro-choice crowd to prove that it does not.

You may proceed.

[tedro]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

I think we can get around it in this discussion since we all agree that murder is wrong, so far. I’m cautiously optimistic that we can avoid discussing meta ethics.

We can agree that murder, as it is commonly understood (i.e., the malicious, premeditated, and unlawful killing of another human being) is usually wrong.

If so, then we can also agree that if the killing is not unlawful, not premeditated, not malicious, and not of another human being, then no murder has been committed.

The burden is on the pro-life crowd to prove that abortion meets all four conditions. The burden is likewise on the pro-choice crowd to prove that it does not.

You may proceed.[/quote]

I’m not sure I entirely agree with your definition, but nevertheless it is irrelevant. For if it is agreed that murder is wrong, then we simply need to define why it is wrong, not what constitutes it.

Furthermore, I could have simply said, “Why is killing prima facie wrong?” It makes no difference what you call the act. I simply began with murder to avoid an irrelevant discussion about self-defense.

So instead of complicating things to support your motives, feel free to answer the question. If there is no argument that murder is indeed wrong, or that killing is prima facie wrong, then there is no need to debate the details of such an act. All I am asking is why is it wrong.

[Varqanir]

[quote]tedro wrote:

I’m not sure I entirely agree with your definition, but nevertheless it is irrelevant. For if it is agreed that murder is wrong, then we simply need to define why it is wrong, not what constitutes it.

Furthermore, I could have simply said, “Why is killing prima facie wrong?” It makes no difference what you call the act. I simply began with murder to avoid an irrelevant discussion about self-defense.

So instead of complicating things to support your motives, feel free to answer the question. If there is no argument that murder is indeed wrong, or that killing is prima facie wrong, then there is no need to debate the details of such an act. All I am asking is why is it wrong.[/quote]

I’m not attempting to complicate, but to simplify for the benefit of everyone. In order for us to accept the syllogism “murder is wrong. Abortion is murder, therefore abortion is wrong,” you would have us accept your premise that murder is wrong.

This is perfectly acceptable to me, as long as I know how you define murder. I gave you my definition. You disagree, as is your prerogative, but then rather than provide an alternate definition, you inform me that the definition of that which I am expected to agree is wrong, is irrelevant.

I propose that the act of killing is not malum in se. In fact, I would go so far as to say that under some circumstances, even murder (by my earlier definition) is not always “wrong,” in a ethical sense.

If, for example, I were to encounter Osama bin Laden in a cafe in Kabul, and were then to follow him into a dark alley, pull out my .45, and perforate his skull with bullet holes, I would have committed a malicious, unlawful, premeditated killing of a human being.

Was I “wrong” to do so? I say that I was not.

But then, you say you don’t like my first definition, so I will try another one.

If murder is defined as “the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse,” then I will agree that it is always wrong.

Why? Because it cannot, by definition, be justified or excused.

Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.

[Varqanir]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to convince me that it is right?[/quote]

No, because I’m not trying to change your mind.

[pat]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to convince me that it is right?

No, because I’m not trying to change your mind.[/quote]

Yes you are. Otherwise what’s the point? We anti-abortionists know we are right. And even if there was some extremely microscopic chance showed itself that we were wrong about when human life begins; our stance does no harm.
The chance that the pro-choice movement is wrong about when human life begins is rather large…And the consequences of having an abortion is grave. If you have an abortion, and you find out you committed murder; that is a bad thing.

Nobody is better off for having an abortion…

[pat]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to convince me that it is right?

No, because I’m not trying to change your mind.

What gave you the impression I/we were trying to change yours?
[/quote]
'Cause you are making strong arguments. We are all trying to convince each other of different things in this forum; if you want to be honest about it…

[quote]
I know for a fact you are an intractable fellow who would fall on his sword first rather than allow himself to be unduly influenced by the likes of me.[/quote]

You influence me…I am working hard to catch your indestructible back. I did a 345 lbs. Deadlift session for 30 reps the other day…I am catching you, slowly. Another couple hundrend pounds and your in trouble bud.

[Varqanir]

[quote]pat wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.

Wouldn’t it be incumbent on you to convince me that it is right?

No, because I’m not trying to change your mind.

Yes you are. Otherwise what’s the point? We anti-abortionists know we are right. And even if there was some extremely microscopic chance showed itself that we were wrong about when human life begins; our stance does no harm.
The chance that the pro-choice movement is wrong about when human life begins is rather large…And the consequences of having an abortion is grave. If you have an abortion, and you find out you committed murder; that is a bad thing.

Nobody is better off for having an abortion…[/quote]

Pat, I once saw a sign at the tattoo parlor in Bangkok, where I got my first tattoo. It said, “people with tattoos don’t care that people without tattoos don’t have tattoos.”

I don’t care if I never influence another person on this board to change their opinion regarding abortion, because neither their opinion, the future vice-president’s opinion, or the Supreme Court’s opinion are going to affect me in the slightest.

I am never going to get an abortion, nor do I ever plan to pay to have the procedure done on anyone I know. That is the extent of my anti-abortion stance. Call me a cold-hearted bastard if you wish, but I personally see no purpose in working to deny a woman the right to have one, if, after weighing all the options she is convinced that it is in her best interest to do so.

You evidently see a purpose. This is obviously an issue of monumental importance to you. Outstanding. More power to you. I would not presume to tell you that your position is wrong, and that mine is the only possible right one, nor would I presume to try to get you to change your position, even if such a thing were possible over the internet.

You go your way, I’ll go mine. I promise not to murder any unborn infants while you’re not looking.

[malonetd]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Pat, I once saw a sign at the tattoo parlor in Bangkok, where I got my first tattoo. It said, “people with tattoos don’t care that people without tattoos don’t have tattoos.”

I don’t care if I never influence another person on this board to change their opinion regarding abortion, because neither their opinion, the future vice-president’s opinion, or the Supreme Court’s opinion are going to affect me in the slightest.

I am never going to get an abortion, nor do I ever plan to pay to have the procedure done on anyone I know. That is the extent of my anti-abortion stance. Call me a cold-hearted bastard if you wish, but I personally see no purpose in working to deny a woman the right to have one, if, after weighing all the options she is convinced that it is in her best interest to do so.

You evidently see a purpose. This is obviously an issue of monumental importance to you. Outstanding. More power to you. I would not presume to tell you that your position is wrong, and that mine is the only possible right one, nor would I presume to try to get you to change your position, even if such a thing were possible over the internet.

You go your way, I’ll go mine. I promise not to murder any unborn infants while you’re not looking.[/quote]

You stated this much better than I did when I said, “I just don’t care about abortion.”

And since I remember you being a fan of Prince (I hope that I’m remembering correctly and that was you), you are near the top of my list of favorite posters on this site.

[malonetd]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
…You stated this much better than I did when I said, “I just don’t care about abortion”…

Yessssss, let’s hold our heads high, hold hands and sing as we celebrate our Pridefest of Apathy. About murder.

It’ll be tough to take you two seriously when it comes to other matters of debate and we find out “you care” about the matter at hand then.[/quote]

I can’t hear you. My head’s in the sand, remember?

I hope you’re equally vocal when it comes to saving “lives” in other situations. Somehow I doubt it.

[malonetd]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
…You stated this much better than I did when I said, “I just don’t care about abortion”…

Yessssss, let’s hold our heads high, hold hands and sing as we celebrate our Pridefest of Apathy. About murder.

It’ll be tough to take you two seriously when it comes to other matters of debate and we find out “you care” about the matter at hand then.

I can’t hear you. My head’s in the sand, remember?

I hope you’re equally vocal when it comes to saving “lives” in other situations. Somehow I doubt it.

Give me an example of “other situations”. Capital punishment? You want to go down the dichotomy roads of murder of innocent unborns and killing of guilty felons?[/quote]

Why do people always jump from abortion to the death penalty? How are they even related?

I guess I’m done with this conversation if you can’t even be bothered to read what I post anyway. I’ve already stated that I’m completely for capital punishment. I wish the process could be hurried up and the felons could be put down sooner. But, again, this has nothing to with abortion.

By other situations I meant outside an internet forum. That was poorly worded on my part. I hope that you do more that raise your voice online if you feel this strongly about the issue.

Look, you think fetus = innocent life. I don’t. We both know that neither one of us is going to convince the other to think otherwise. The difference is I don’t take this difference in opinion and use it to judge you in other areas. Apparently you will.

[malonetd]

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
…You stated this much better than I did when I said, “I just don’t care about abortion”…

Yessssss, let’s hold our heads high, hold hands and sing as we celebrate our Pridefest of Apathy. About murder.

It’ll be tough to take you two seriously when it comes to other matters of debate and we find out “you care” about the matter at hand then.

I can’t hear you. My head’s in the sand, remember?

I hope you’re equally vocal when it comes to saving “lives” in other situations. Somehow I doubt it.

Funny stuff…liberals always rationalize abortion by stating things like: “You conservatives don’t want to feed them when they’re born” or “If you only cared about certain o t h e r lives which are being lost in foreign soil…”

Ha…ha they just can’t speak directly to the issue and ever come out on top.

[/quote]
You know, I disagree with push about this, but I respect that has answered all my questions and responded rationally and respectfully. I appreciate that. A lot of other people on here do that too.

You, however, let others do the debating for you and you jump in just to add useless commentary. You rarely have any worthwhile insight or an original thought. You’re really not even worth addressing most the time.

[EmilyQ]

[quote]Mick28 wrote:

Funny stuff…liberals always rationalize abortion by stating things like: “You conservatives don’t want to feed them when they’re born” or “If you only cared about certain o t h e r lives which are being lost in foreign soil…”

Ha…ha they just can’t speak directly to the issue and ever come out on top.
[/quote]

What was really funny to me was that I got to your comment after having read these excellent posts of Varqanir’s, which speak directly to the issue with no mention of feeding or foreign soil:

[quote]I’m not attempting to complicate, but to simplify for the benefit of everyone. In order for us to accept the syllogism “murder is wrong. Abortion is murder, therefore abortion is wrong,” you would have us accept your premise that murder is wrong.

This is perfectly acceptable to me, as long as I know how you define murder. I gave you my definition. You disagree, as is your prerogative, but then rather than provide an alternate definition, you inform me that the definition of that which I am expected to agree is wrong, is irrelevant.

I propose that the act of killing is not malum in se. In fact, I would go so far as to say that under some circumstances, even murder (by my earlier definition) is not always “wrong,” in a ethical sense.

If, for example, I were to encounter Osama bin Laden in a cafe in Kabul, and were then to follow him into a dark alley, pull out my .45, and perforate his skull with bullet holes, I would have committed a malicious, unlawful, premeditated killing of a human being.

Was I “wrong” to do so? I say that I was not.

But then, you say you don’t like my first definition, so I will try another one.

If murder is defined as “the unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse,” then I will agree that it is always wrong.

Why? Because it cannot, by definition, be justified or excused.

Convince me that abortion is unlawful, that it is unjustifiable, and that what is killed is without question a human being, and you will convince me that it is wrong.[/quote]

And:

[quote]I once saw a sign at the tattoo parlor in Bangkok, where I got my first tattoo. It said, “people with tattoos don’t care that people without tattoos don’t have tattoos.”

I don’t care if I never influence another person on this board to change their opinion regarding abortion, because neither their opinion, the future vice-president’s opinion, or the Supreme Court’s opinion are going to affect me in the slightest.

I am never going to get an abortion, nor do I ever plan to pay to have the procedure done on anyone I know. That is the extent of my anti-abortion stance. Call me a cold-hearted bastard if you wish, but I personally see no purpose in working to deny a woman the right to have one, if, after weighing all the options she is convinced that it is in her best interest to do so.

You evidently see a purpose. This is obviously an issue of monumental importance to you. Outstanding. More power to you. I would not presume to tell you that your position is wrong, and that mine is the only possible right one, nor would I presume to try to get you to change your position, even if such a thing were possible over the internet.

You go your way, I’ll go mine. I promise not to murder any unborn infants while you’re not looking.[/quote]

Are you meaning to make a joke, Mick? If so, good one! I laughed and laughed. If not, then, er…

[Varqanir]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

It’ll be tough to take you two seriously when it comes to other matters of debate and we find out “you care” about the matter at hand then.[/quote]

I’ll assume that I’m the other person you’re addressing here, Push, so I guess I’ll respond.

You know my position on this matter better than most people. And probably you know my position on other matters as well as most. In case you or anyone is unclear where I stand, let me reiterate.

I care about the right to free speech, because I don’t think anyone (including government) has the right to silence me.

I care about the right to freedom of religion, because I don’t think anyone (including government) has the right to force their belief system upon me.

I care about the freedom of the press, because I don’t think anyone (including government) has the right to a monopoly of information.

I care (I really, really care) about the right of the people to keep and bear arms, because I don’t think anyone (especially government) has the right to a monopoly of force.

I have the right to say what I want, but I can’t force you to agree, or even to listen.

I have the right to believe in Vishnu, Buddha, Yahweh, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or not, but I can’t force you to convert you to my religion.

I have the right to print whatever I want, but I can’t force you to read my paper.

And finally, I have the right to keep and bear arms, but I can’t force you to buy a military rifle.

I may never take advantage of all the rights that I have, but I would hate to lose any of them.

At this time, in this country, a woman has the right to decide, within a certain time frame, to end her pregnancy if she so chooses. Regardless of my feelings about the “humanness” of the fetus she is choosing to abort, regardless of how sad I might be at the thought that one more baby might not be born, I refuse to deny her this right.

If you choose to call this “apathy,” that is your right. It’s a free country, after all.