Interesting article from a Republican mouthpiece publication in Germany.
Great article.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Interesting article from a Republican mouthpiece publication in Germany.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,499154,00.html[/quote]
Hedo,
Thanks for posting this.
The new york times, the associated press, the dem Senators, and now spiegel?
Ladies and Gentlemen, let’s have a moment of silence for our friend lixy.
Imagine what this feels like for him.
JeffR
Nice…
[i]
In October, 90 “incidents” were reported in Tameem, an area no larger than a few city blocks in Berlin. Twenty of those incidents involved attacks on US troops by gangs of insurgents.
Wherever the Americans went they were shot at from apartment buildings, three times with rockets and four times with rocket-propelled grenades. Sixteen remote-controlled bombs exploded along the neighborhood’s streets, 14 homemade explosive devices were found and defused, snipers attacked the occupying troops twice and one hidden car bomb was found, ready for use. And so the story continued: throughout November, December, January and February.
By March, however, the number of incidents reported in Tameem had dropped to 43, including only four direct attacks with rifles and pistols and one rocket attack. There were no bombings, snipers, rocket-propelled grenades or car bombs. And the leaders of the region’s 23 powerful clans were finally meeting with US commanders for “security conferences,” while the imams from the city’s mosques met with the military’s chaplains.
The Iraqis in Ramadi, almost all Sunnis, had been worn down by chronic violence. Many had been victims of kidnappings or blackmail at the hands of mafia-like terrorist groups. They had finally come to the realization that, in the long run, the Americans were less of a threat and offered more hope than the fanatical holy warriors from Iraq and abroad.
Families began sending their sons to join the new Iraqi police force and military and fathers ran for municipal offices. They began cooperating with US military officials, turning in bombers and revealing their weapons caches, all while going about their daily lives, running their businesses, working as contractors, shipping agents and garbage collectors.
Teachers returned to their classrooms, doctors began treating patients again and store owners restocked their shelves. Iraqis were now building the barbed wire barriers around the city, constructed to force travelers through checkpoints. Iraqis even manned the checkpoints as the Americans – the Iraqis’ former enemies – retreated to the background, watching over as the city made a fresh start.
Since June, Ramadi residents have only known the war from televison. Indeed, US military officials at the Baghdad headquarters of Operation Iraqi Freedom often have trouble believing their eyes when they read the reports coming in from their units in Ramadi these days. Exploded car bombs: zero. Detonated roadside bombs: zero. Rocket fire: zero. Grenade fire: zero. Shots from rifles and pistols: zero. Weapons caches discovered: dozens. Terrorists arrested: many.
[/i]
Call me a crackpot, but I’ve been saying it will take participation of the locals to win this thing. If they finally do become part of making peace in their land, they’ll have some ownership later when the US forces finally do get to leave.
Wow… later in the story…
[i]
No one can forget how the hawks twisted the truth to engineer reasons to go to war – the made-up stories of Saddam Hussein as a mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks and the trumped-up reports about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
President George W. Bush himself repeatedly told his people and the rest of world horrible fairy tales, painting the most glaring of disaster scenarios, talking ad nauseam about unmanned Iraqi drones that, in his imagination, posed a threat to the US.
The lies didn’t stop there, not even after the invasion. Bush kept promising that American troops were on the verge of uncovering Iraq’s imaginary weapons of mass destruction. And on May 1, 2003, he gave his now notorious “Mission Accomplished” speech aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. At that point, though, the real war hadn’t even begun yet.
[/i]
Looks like it provides ammunition and credence to everyone.
An area not doing so well…
[i]
To soften the asphalt, the terrorists burn truck tires in places where they want to bury explosives, and then they lay cable “ready to go” – that is, they leave the contacts for the trigger cable sticking out of the ground along the side of a road, ready for future use.
They have developed flat bombs with magnetic plates that adhere to vehicles as they pass by overhead. And they plant grenades with remote-controlled detonators in trees, hoping to hit low-flying helicopters with the devices.
“The energy of these people is incredible,” says Mycue. His territory is at about the lowest point in the new Iraq, one of the inner chambers in its heart of darkness. A group calling itself the “Islamic State of Iraq” has formed its first virtual government in the district north of Route Senators. Far from Ramadi, there is no peace here. This is an all-out war zone.
But it’s not a war between Iraqis and Americans, as some might think. It’s a war between everyone and everyone else – a war of Shiites against Sunnis, Sunnis against Christians, competing terrorist cells fighting for territory, private militias against the Iraqi police, drug gangs, apolitical criminal kidnappers interested purely in ransom money and Iraqi mafiosos.
Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that in this southern part of Baghdad, a few kilometers as the crow flies from the Green Zone’s fortresses, civil order has vanished entirely. The mob rules here in this area of major and minor warlords, who do their utmost to sabotage the work of city officials desperately trying to rebuild the infrastructure.
They cut power lines, destroy water pipes and blow up sewage canals. The Americans are no longer the main enemy here, but only one of many parties. Although their mission is to smoke out the terrorists, they also play the contradictory role of peacekeepers.
The Americans are now building walls and roadblocks to separate the warring parties. Private contractors build the walls at night, using precast concrete sections, working without floodlights on ghostly construction sites, where cranes and bulldozers dig blindly into the dark and workers wear black clothing and night-vision devices to avoid being shot by snipers.
The same approach is now being used to wall in entire sections of the city along religious boundaries, turning them into so-called “gated communities.” Only residents known to the authorities are permitted to enter or exit the walled-off neighborhoods. “We’re not trying to solve problems here at the moment,” says Mycue, “we’re trying to establish a goddamn status quo.”
[/i]
Yeah, yeah, I know people can read it for themselves… I’ll stop.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Call me a crackpot, but I’ve been saying it will take participation of the locals to win this thing. If they finally do become part of making peace in their land, they’ll have some ownership later when the US forces finally do get to leave.[/quote]
Who hasn’t been saying this?
Your mastery of the blatantly obvious is nothing short of astounding.
Try an original thought just once.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Wow… later in the story…
[i]
No one can forget how the hawks twisted the truth to engineer reasons to go to war – the made-up stories of Saddam Hussein as a mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks and the trumped-up reports about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
President George W. Bush himself repeatedly told his people and the rest of world horrible fairy tales, painting the most glaring of disaster scenarios, talking ad nauseam about unmanned Iraqi drones that, in his imagination, posed a threat to the US.
The lies didn’t stop there, not even after the invasion. Bush kept promising that American troops were on the verge of uncovering Iraq’s imaginary weapons of mass destruction. And on May 1, 2003, he gave his now notorious “Mission Accomplished” speech aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln. At that point, though, the real war hadn’t even begun yet.
[/i]
Looks like it provides ammunition and credence to everyone.
[/quote]
I think the real story is the fact that Spiegel and the NYT’s ,both outspoken critics of every aspect of the war are finally seeing what has been accomplished and although they want to editorialize at every turn, the facts are getting harder to ignore.
And yes, when the Iraqi’s can stand up it will be much better for all, except the Sunni’s and AQ in Iraq that is.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Who hasn’t been saying this?
Your mastery of the blatantly obvious is nothing short of astounding. [/quote]
Beat me to it.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Who hasn’t been saying this?
Your mastery of the blatantly obvious is nothing short of astounding.
Try an original thought just once. [/quote]
Dream on. I was ridiculed on these very forums for my stance on this precise issue some time ago. I’m not sure how long, maybe a year, maybe more.
Things become obvious with the passage of time, but because I was ridiculed at the time, you don’t get a free pass on this one.
Pay attention!
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Who hasn’t been saying this?
Your mastery of the blatantly obvious is nothing short of astounding.
Beat me to it.[/quote]
I don’t remember your support either, when I was being attacked for calling on Iraqi civil participation.
Perhaps, and I might be wrong about this capacity, but the two of you could stop slinging petty little insults and simply write something interesting of your own…
[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t remember your support either, when I was being attacked for calling on Iraqi civil participation.[/quote]
That has an easy answer - I have no recollection of that conversation nor the thread (people telling you Iraqis shouldn’t participate and ultimately take over their own destiny?) and most likely, if you were opining on it, I likely skipped your post(s).
It is no “petty insult” to suggest that your “original thinking” is pretty much standard accepted opinion on both the left and the right.
What you want, Vroom, is no criticism of your postings whatsoever. No can do. There was nothing novel about thinking “Iraqis should participate”, and you were told so. Had anyone else typed the same ignorant sentence, I would have pointed out that their “vision of Iraqi participation” was not original either.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
It is no “petty insult” to suggest that your “original thinking” is pretty much standard accepted opinion on both the left and the right.[/quote]
It is now. However, what you just typed is not what was typed earlier. Perhaps I would not have called it a petty insult if that is what was said?
Nonsense. There is criticism, via discussion of issues, and there are assloads of insults from various quarters, which is hugely different. Especially since I’m treated to a finger pointing tattle fest if I do lose my temper and retaliate.
Focus on the topic if you can… and you know I’ll do the same. Piling on, so to speak, is juvenile and pointless. We’ll see what ensues.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Dream on. I was ridiculed on these very forums for my stance on this precise issue some time ago. I’m not sure how long, maybe a year, maybe more.
Things become obvious with the passage of time, but because I was ridiculed at the time, you don’t get a free pass on this one.
Pay attention![/quote]
It would be a bit of a pipe dream to think you would actually pay attention to the goings-on in Iraq.
Let’s see - just for shits and giggles - how about we look at all the steps taken to facilitate just the very thing you have been espousing from the very start.
-
Creation of an interim government
-
Creation of the Iraqi Defense Force.
-
Free and open elections to public offices. (for which I believe you held a great deal of skepticism). Remember how hokie you thought the ink stained fingers were?
-
Ratification of a constitution.
-
Trial and execution of Sadaam.
Bush - you know - the guy you think is dumber than dirt? Yeah…him. This was all part of his plan to FREE the Iraqi people, and give them the ability and desire to take their destinies into their own hands.
I openly supported every one of these steps, as did millions and millions of other people. Are we there yet? Nope - but we are closer than we have been since we went over there.
To act as if you are the only one to espouse this thought is ludicrous. To think that anyone pro-war would see Iraqi’s desire to govern/defend themselves as a bad thing is utter stupidity.
Maybe it is you that should pay attention. God knows you dropped the ball on this one.
Or do you like pretending to be a pseudo-intellectual martyr?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
It would be a bit of a pipe dream to think you would actually pay attention to the goings-on in Iraq.
Let’s see - just for shits and giggles - how about we look at all the steps taken to facilitate just the very thing you have been espousing from the very start.
-
Creation of an interim government
-
Creation of the Iraqi Defense Force.
-
Free and open elections to public offices. (for which I believe you held a great deal of skepticism). Remember how hokie you thought the ink stained fingers were?
-
Ratification of a constitution.
-
Trial and execution of Sadaam.
Bush - you know - the guy you think is dumber than dirt? Yeah…him. This was all part of his plan to FREE the Iraqi people, and give them the ability and desire to take their destinies into their own hands.
I openly supported every one of these steps, as did millions and millions of other people. Are we there yet? Nope - but we are closer than we have been since we went over there.
To act as if you are the only one to espouse this thought is ludicrous. To think that anyone pro-war would see Iraqi’s desire to govern/defend themselves as a bad thing is utter stupidity.
Maybe it is you that should pay attention. God knows you dropped the ball on this one.
Or do you like pretending to be a pseudo-intellectual martyr?[/quote]
How long ago was the CPA trying to hand over security to the Iraqis?
Here is that “new” thing in action in 2003:
[i]Against the backdrop of increasing attacks on coalition forces and supporters, the Iraqi Governing Council announced on Saturday a timetable for Iraqis to assume power from the U.S.-led provisional authority within six months.
The council announced a plan to establish a provisional government in Iraq, with full sovereign powers, by the end of June, 2004. Iraq would write a constitution and elect a democratic government by the end of 2005, said Ahmed Chalabi, a council member. [/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.main/
We have been trying to get Iraqis to take over fully in their own country - and that has been the plan from Day One.
Old news. Still a challenge given the environment, but old news.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Here is that “new” thing in action in 2003:
[i]Against the backdrop of increasing attacks on coalition forces and supporters, the Iraqi Governing Council announced on Saturday a timetable for Iraqis to assume power from the U.S.-led provisional authority within six months.
The council announced a plan to establish a provisional government in Iraq, with full sovereign powers, by the end of June, 2004. Iraq would write a constitution and elect a democratic government by the end of 2005, said Ahmed Chalabi, a council member. [/i]
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.main/
We have been trying to get Iraqis to take over fully in their own country - and that has been the plan from Day One.
Old news. Still a challenge given the environment, but old news.
[/quote]
The funny part is that vroom thinks it was his idea. Is he parroting the republicans now - 4 years after the fact? LMAO!!!
I admit I didn’t completely catch up on the 5 extra pages since my last post, so apologies if anyone already pointed this out, but more people are noticing US forces are making significant progress in Iraq – including some folks who were previously very dedicated to declaring it a defeat(see Davids Medienkritik: SPIEGEL ONLINE: "The US Military is more successful in Iraq than the world wants to believe." ):
quote: “The U.S. military in Iraq is more successful than anyone wants to believe.”
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
quote: “The U.S. military in Iraq is more successful than anyone wants to believe.”[/quote]
What does that mean exactly? What’s the measure of success?
Car bombings are still a near daily occurrence; the Sunni contingent of the coalition government has walked out, leaving little prospect of a strong central government anytime soon.
From many reports, violence is down, but mostly in Sunni quarters. Unfortunately, even if the Sunnis shape up and stand up for themselves, you’re still looking at sectarian violence, or an all-out civil war if you pull out.
I mean, I’m not rooting for US failure, on the contrary, I’d love to see Iraq succeed and become a second or third strong western ally in the region, but I’m not seeing so much “success” as piecemeal improvements here and there. Unquestionably “Good Things,” but not promising for long-term stability. Another unfortunate thing appears to be that current troop levels won’t be sustainable for very long, barring a reinstatement of the draft, so whatever calming effect the surge is having might not last long enough to extend the stability to the other factions in the country.
Am I missing something?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
The funny part is that vroom thinks it was his idea. Is he parroting the republicans now - 4 years after the fact? LMAO!!!
[/quote]
Holy shit, you two are ridiculous!
The interim government and the defence forces are not the issue I’m discussing whatsoever.
It’s the public. The neighborhoods. The people who live in those neighborhoods. People who are now risking their lives to point out the terrorists. It is those people, not the government, and not the security forces, that have to turn on Al Quaeda and the insurgents.
At least if you two are going to run around spending all day trying to mock me you could at least try to attack me on the right issue… but then, why start now?
By the way, while some did poke fun at the finger painting issue, I don’t think I was one. Basically, giving the people that chance to vote, and having so many of them do it, was pretty cool to watch. I could see poking fun at cheerleaders for thinking the situation was “resolved” when that happened.
We’ll see.