A Thread about Religion

batman730 · June 1, 2015, 3:57am

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

This might be because you’ve taken it upon yourself to decide exactly what those teachings are, and aren’t, without really attaining the requisite knowledge of them to have the authority to make that claim.
[/quote]

Most certainly.

I do try to go exactly by what Jesus said in the Gospels though. What else do you suggest that I read to build up my expectation of a good Christian?[/quote]

I appreciate you being candid. I suspect you are being sincere.

I will say this about the teachings and actions of Christ: you have to understand the Old Testament AND you have to understand who He claimed to be (and who He is) before you can truly understand Him and what he had to say. You also need to understand the post Gospel New Testament. It’s a daunting task, I admit, but the Bible must be studied and applied holistically for much of it to truly make sense.

If all one ever does is just study the Gospels, or the Psalms, or the Pentateuch, or the Epistles, or Revelation, you will flat-out never get any traction on what’s really going on. [/quote]

I usually avoid these things like the plague, but here goes.

I dunno Push. It’s been a while since I really studied the Bible and I concede that it is a truly daunting task. However, seems to me that there was something in there about Love God and Love your neighbour and on these two all the Law and the prophets hang, or some such.

I submit that if I person who wanted to live by Faith really meditated upon, internalized and acted on that, they could get a fairly decent amount of traction on what’s really going on. It also seems to me that many folks who identify as Christians do a fairly poor job of following either of these Commandments.

I’m not bashing Christians or Christianity at all. I just can’t help but believe that Christ would have had higher hopes for his Church than what we see in the world today.

batman730 · June 1, 2015, 4:31am

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

This might be because you’ve taken it upon yourself to decide exactly what those teachings are, and aren’t, without really attaining the requisite knowledge of them to have the authority to make that claim.
[/quote]

Most certainly.

I do try to go exactly by what Jesus said in the Gospels though. What else do you suggest that I read to build up my expectation of a good Christian?[/quote]

I appreciate you being candid. I suspect you are being sincere.

I will say this about the teachings and actions of Christ: you have to understand the Old Testament AND you have to understand who He claimed to be (and who He is) before you can truly understand Him and what he had to say. You also need to understand the post Gospel New Testament. It’s a daunting task, I admit, but the Bible must be studied and applied holistically for much of it to truly make sense.

If all one ever does is just study the Gospels, or the Psalms, or the Pentateuch, or the Epistles, or Revelation, you will flat-out never get any traction on what’s really going on. [/quote]

I usually avoid these things like the plague, but here goes.

I dunno Push. It’s been a while since I really studied the Bible and I concede that it is a truly daunting task. However, seems to me that there was something in there about Love God and Love your neighbour and on these two all the Law and the prophets hang, or some such.

I submit that if I person who wanted to live by Faith really meditated upon, internalized and acted on that, they could get a fairly decent amount of traction on what’s really going on. It also seems to me that many folks who identify as Christians do a fairly poor job of following either of these Commandments.

I’m not bashing Christians or Christianity at all. I just can’t help but believe that Christ would have had higher hopes for his Church than what we see in the world today.
[/quote]

I completely agree. You’ll get no argument out of me. None of that though negates what I said in my post you quoted.

And I’ll go on record as stating I fall far, far, far, far short of what I could and should be doing in that regard.
[/quote]

Not really intended as a negation or an argument, per se. It just seemed to me that you were calling for some pretty heavy theology as being required to understand (or at least apply) the teachings of the Christ.

I’ve never really felt that to be the case. Always seemed like another of those things that fell into the category of fairly simple however anything but easy.

As for falling short, I expect we all do, one way or another.

kaaleppi · June 1, 2015, 12:29pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:

My point was if you don’t accept Christ for being who He claimed to be then you have to admit he was the biggest fraud and liar ever. And what sense would that make to give credence to the teachings of liar and a fraud? Especially one of such gargantuan proportions?[/quote]

What makes a person the biggest liar and fraud ever? Is it the success? There would be other liars who saw that happen. Jesus would be a normal liar and fraud, nothing extraordinary.

hmm87 · June 1, 2015, 1:39pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

Not really intended as a negation or an argument, per se. It just seemed to me that you were calling for some pretty heavy theology as being required to understand (or at least apply) the teachings of the Christ.

I’ve never really felt that to be the case. Always seemed like another of those things that fell into the category of fairly simple however anything but easy.

As for falling short, I expect we all do, one way or another.

[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying.

My point was if you don’t accept Christ for being who He claimed to be then you have to admit he was the biggest fraud and liar ever. And what sense would that make to give credence to the teachings of liar and a fraud? Especially one of such gargantuan proportions?[/quote]

Maybe some believe that he never existed or that maybe he did exist but the writings about him are false, and possibly exaggerated.

countingbeans · June 1, 2015, 2:11pm

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]killerDIRK wrote:

…Still more atheist, but letting those who need to believe believe…[/quote]

Whew! Thanks so much![/quote]

I lol’ed too.

It isn’t so much about “letting”, no one, certainly not myself, is in any place to “let” someone believe.

It’s a matter of understanding they do, and as long as it isn’t hurting anyone, it doesn’t really matter that they do. The more curious among us can take the time to understand what they believe, and then finally why, if they are so inclined.

countingbeans · June 1, 2015, 2:27pm

[quote]magick wrote:

Because I don’t think being a Christian is synonymous with being a good person.[/quote]

I think most of the time, it’s the fact that these people understand they AREN’T good people, and that’s why they are Christian, that causes a lot of the confusion.

A lot fo the rabid “das hypocritez” lamentation really go out the window if you really sit back and look at things outside the vacuum of Contemporary Pop Culture, which is, without a doubt, very anti-Western Judea-Christian in nature.

pat · June 1, 2015, 3:56pm

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

I think it would only be mocking if it were not a 100% accurate description of them. They were what he said they were. They didn’t like it, but he didn’t mock them, he exposed them.[/quote]

This just makes your mocking of Hawking all the more indefensible.

Jesus hated the Pharisees because they claimed to be followers of God, yet did everything against His teachings.

I truly find it a pity that I’ve yet to meet a Christian who, as far as I can tell, even attempts to strive to follow in the teachings of Jesus. It genuinely makes me sad. I would give many things to actually meet such a person.[/quote]

You missed the point which was not directed at you. I am not comparing anything I did to what Jesus did. I am certain I am wasting my time here, but the point was I said what I said to make a splash, to cause a ruckus. To cause a ruckus is not unheard of in Christianity, here is an example.
Get it? I didn’t think so.

pat · June 1, 2015, 3:57pm

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
I’m going to guess that Pat had a particularly bad day/moment.[/quote]

He’s got a history of these type of things if you go back through his religious threads. When it comes to such a follower of Jesus it seems as if a big disconnect is there. Maybe he’s just ignoring the love thy neighbor part of the bible? We do know many Christians love to pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe from the good book.

Retarded cripple is pretty bad though. And it got the reaction I wanted just makes him seem like an angry troll. [/quote]

Sounds like someone needs a hug.
[/quote]

Think you’re just following that angry old testament God. He reads like a really pissed off terrorist huh? Follow in his image! [/quote]

Your theological analysis is enlightening. Your hatred for all things religious is transparent.[/quote]

I don’t have a hatred for all things religious. I just like to call out obvious bullshit from some of its followers. And it is way easier to do that with people like you. See Sloth/Trib, people like that? While I may completely disagree with them I can see that they aren’t just talking the talk. They have my respect even though we couldn’t possibly see the world differently.

You come off like a whining child. “Just because I’m Christian I can’t be a dickhead to others?! What if they are doing it to me! I’m just being like they are to me! Here’s a video of some mean atheists! Now do I get to be a dick to others?!”

I guess turn the other cheek is another one of those parts worth skipping? You got one of those WWJD bracelets to look down at before all these religious thread tantrums you go through? Would Jesus have been trolling for reactions? Would he have said retarded cripple? Or is that just yet another inconvenient piece of your belief that can be glossed over?

And I’m the one who “doesn’t believe in anything.” [/quote]

Oh quit whining.

pat · June 1, 2015, 4:10pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Could we please stop bringing up Christ and the money-changers in order to defend mocking physical disabilities? They are not even remotely similar. Could we not drag Jesus Christ through the mud? Please, if you want to stand by such a disgusting and vile comment, don’t bring Christ–who spoke for, ministered to, laid hands on, and made promises to, the ‘lame,’ the ‘weak,’ and the ‘crippled’–into it.

Need an example of OUR stance?

Ok, I get it, Hawkins doesn’t believe us. And, perhaps he’s speaking to things he doesn’t really have any authority on (theology, philosophy, whatever). But, he’s not exactly feeding us to lions. If the martyrs of the earliest church could handle their bloody persecution with grace, I’m sure we can keep our cool at least as well when handling New Atheism, Hawkins, etc.

Crippled retard is anything but graceful.[/quote]

Do you see the discussion that has resulted? That was the point. I actually have no feelings toward Hawking himself, positive or negative. I wanted to see how many of his disciples would get “offended”.
Things I say in religious threads in particular, are often measured and deliberate.
You may not agree with it, and you don’t have to. But I wanted to see all the fake outrage, self aggrandizing (Well I never…!),the righteous indignation and hypocrisy that would result. I am getting a treat as it’s stirred the shit pot more than I expected.
You know what I really think. I have said it often enough. I don’t mind being the bad guy here, if it results in good dialog and reflection.
All these people here jumping on their high horses, heaping their righteous judgement on me, never once questioning as they should where it comes from; the righteous judgement that is. The innate decency that you should never call a handicapped person a name. Why not?

pat · June 1, 2015, 4:12pm

[quote]H factor wrote:
Whining about zombie jesus post? That was posted by Varq in REPLY to Pat posting about how stupid atheists were if I remember correctly. And if I remember right it was pretty much unprovoked. So all Varq did was post a “can’t believe Christians believe this” right after Pat posted a “atheists actually believe this” type thing.

So he’s crying about something that he did first. I can’t find the thread, but I’m pretty sure that is how it went down.

N/M: Yeah I was right (below) You can choke on this level of hypocrisy. Those who mock and insult us? Coming from one of the kings of mocking and insulting non-believers?

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/intro_to_christianity_for_teens;jsessionid=D02ABB24CE90A1E84D65F47A827BE177-mcd02.hydra?id=6199090&pageNo=3

And you wonder why people are leaving in droves. Not enough walk the walkers like Sloth. And in a “thread about religion” we expose the holier than thou wannabes.

Now make up another excuse about how it’s ok because Christ did something something something and maybe with enough mental jumping you can portray the picture that you’re acting like a follower of him. Like SMH I’ve had enough of this hypocrisy. [/quote]

Speaking of hypocrisy…
Want some cheese to go with your whine?

countingbeans · June 1, 2015, 4:20pm

[quote]pat wrote:
I am not comparing anything I did to what Jesus did. [/quote]

But that is the problem, and why those that stand on the safe side of belief as far as criticism on the internet goes, are going to attack you for what you said.

I personally don’t particularly care what you called the man, it is just a name. Doe sit make you an asshole? I guess, but I don’t personally care if someone is an asshole all that much either, particularly if the extent of their “asshole” is verbal. (Within reason.) I’m not defending you (not that you want it), but I’m am sitting here wishing it wasn’t said.

Why? Because it gives a target to those who have no rule book to follow. Which is irritating beyond belief.

When an atheist goes on rants about hypocrite this, and religious people that, I tune it out. Mainly because they have no code, and no common basis from which to build a code. Therefore, because they are relativists by definition, they can’t be held to the same standards of the people they are deriding. Which in turn makes criticizing religious people not only easy, but sheltered from any sort of having to “walk the walk”.

A person who calls themselves a Jew, a Christian or Muslim, whatever have a rule book. They, at the very least, have a set of certain rules they are supposed to follow. The atheist has… nothing.

The Christian has something to lose based on their actions and words. The atheist has nothing to lose other than public favor.

The Christian is judged by the actions of others. “Oh look at the Duggars, another religious freak diddling kids” The atheist isn’t. I mean the vast majority of child abuse isn’t done by ultra devout “fringe” religious people, and when black people are judged as a whole based on crime stats, the same people calling for the head of religion suddenly get all indignant and want people seen as individuals.

The Christians among us can and will be imperfect. Just like the atheists. But socially they are held to a different standard. And maybe it is backlash for centuries of being the “leadership” of social norms, or maybe it is a general lack of ethics on the part of the detractors, or maybe the devout…

I don’t know the answer, but I do know the rather weakness presented in the absurdity of those that have no rule book outside what they deem at that moment appropriate, judging those that have one, and fail to be perfect. I mean, it’s hard to not be perfect when your entire moral and ethical code is made up within yourself.

pat · June 1, 2015, 4:22pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
What sucks is that I didn’t come on here to take you to task Pat. Even after I saw the comment I pretty much held my tongue and waited for the self-correction I was sure you’d post. Figured you simply had one of those moments that we humans have, and in short order you’d make right on that post. [/quote]

I don’t mind…
It was a human moment, they all are. If you are waiting on a mea culpa, don’t it’s not coming. I have explained myself to you well enough, I think. If you have any specific questions I’ll be happy to answer them. If you think its a bad example, you are entitled to your opinion. Like I said, I don’t mind being the bad guy here. If I didn’t I would have waxed philosophical like I normally do. But I chose the emotive as this is where most people are most of the time.

pat · June 1, 2015, 4:27pm

[quote]countingbeans wrote: