A Step in the Right Direction

[quote]100meters wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

Tell me, from where did you draw your numbers stating that increased domestic drilling will only have a five cent decrease in the price of gas, over the course of twenty years?

Lumpy, are you making shit up? tsk, tsk…

Bush’s dept of Energy.
ANWR: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/results.html
Coastal: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html

A 75 cent reduction in a barrel of oil = pennies on a gallon of gas. Add in the coastal which will have production rates half of ANWR (theoretically) and you get a couple more pennies. OVER A DECADE FROM NOW!

Boy oh Boy were you duped![/quote]

Although I’m surprised that you were able to produce links to your foolish numbers, they’re still just that; foolish numbers. (A) we both know that the gas prices are highly speculative and that nobody, not even “Bush’s energy dept.” can foretell the actual effect that increased domestic drilling will have on fuel prices. (B) It makes me laugh when you deride the Bush administration for EVERYTHING, yet you swallow these numbers like they were a holy nugget. LOL! your inconsistent.

I think that deep down inside, somewhere DEEP inside the recesses of that ultra liberal soul of yours, you know that ramping up domestic drilling and beefing up supply will have a beneficial effect on fuel prices. You just can’t admit it here on this forum.

Nope. For what would I apologize for? Your arguments seem to infer that I am in favor of increased domestic drilling only, and that I am opposed to pursuing future energy sources. That has never been the case. My position has always been that we need to increase domestic supply while at the same time pursuing future energy sources. And don’t give me that whiny bullshit about “It’ll take soooo long to get going and get the oil”. You sound like my eight year old when he comes to me crying about how loooong it’s gonna take to pick up the dog shit in the backyard.

Boo fucking hoo. The sooner we get started, the sooner we get there. If we would have started ten years ago, we’d be ten years ahead of where we are now, now wouldn’t we.

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

[/quote]
Always with China and Soviet Union, always ignoring true Democratic Socialism ala the Scandanavian nations.

If you think China is a true Democratic Socialism, you are an idiot.

What am I saying? You don’t believe in human-caused global warming - you ARE an idiot.

Let me guess, are you from the South as well?

[quote]GreenMountains wrote:

Government should not be playing favorites using the tax code in a true capitalist society. It is none of their fucking business how I or anyone else makes money.
[/quote]

It is very much the government’s business how you make money. If you do it by harming others, or duping the voters, or polluting the environment, it is very much Government’s concern.

The Dollar has fallen 40% since 2002

Asian countries are sucking up middle east oil

Congress won’t allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge’s (ARWR) where one of the World’s largest oil reserves lie

Congress won’t allow oil exploration off the Florida coast, yet China is drilling for oil less than 60 miles off of Key West

Congress won’t allow oil extraction from oil shale

Congress won’t allow our huge coal reserves to be converted to oil

Congress won’t allow coal fueled powered plants to be built even with the new emissions technology we have

Congress won’t allow more oil refineries or nuclear power plants to be built

Congress won’t grant tax incentives for research into nanotech solar technology

Energy has become a National Security because we are essentially a petroleum based economy. 30+ years of neglect have caught up to us and this won’t be a qucik fix . However to say drilling won’t solve any of our problems or lower the pain at the pump is idiotic. There not even willing to try.All they want to do is tax us for using gas and tax the oil companies. How does that produce oil/energy. Lets drill and see what happens.As well as continuing to look for effective brands of alternative energy. I don’t see why we can’t do both.

What incentive would exist to invest in alternative energy sources if we are continuing to provide cheap oil-based energy?

Very recently, Solar and Solar thermal has started to gain momentum, with almost 4 terawatts of solar power to be online by ~2015. Where was this capital interest 10 years ago? Solar power has hardly gotten to be any more efficient in that time, and though it has gotten to be cheaper, it is still very expensive compared to Oil. However, in recent years, more and more massive projects have been greenlighted for the next decade.

The reason is because, as the price of Oil goes up, Solar becomes comparatively more cost effective. Where, 10 years ago it might have taken 10 years to see a financial return from a 20 MW solar power plant. Today, because Oil prices have gone up, and are likely to keep going up. You will see a return much quicker, relative to if you had invested in Oil.

Asking to invest billions of dollars in offshore drilling and then expecting to also invest billions of dollars into alternative energy is optimistic, but very unlikely to pan out. The market gravitates towards what is the most cost effective. Increasing Oil supply domestically will make alternative fuels less cost effective comparatively, incentive diminishes and they continue to languish in purgatory(as they have for decades due to cheap Oil)

It is theoretically possible that we could get our heads out of our asses and actually invest significant time, money, and manpower into developing alternative energy infrastructures while simultaneously investing significant time, money and manpower into offshore drilling projects.

It is possible. But I am having a hard time seeing where all that money is going to come from, considering how broke we are as a nation, and how completely resistant half the population is at giving any of their money away, least of all when it is for a project that conceivably could help their country.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:

It is theoretically possible that we could get our heads out of our asses and actually invest significant time, money, and manpower into developing alternative energy infrastructures while simultaneously investing significant time, money and manpower into offshore drilling projects.

[/quote]
This is another problem with ‘the market fixes everything’ thinking. The market is very short-sighted. It often cannot make short-term sacrifices to net long term gains AS A SYSTEM.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

Always with China and Soviet Union, always ignoring true Democratic Socialism ala the Scandanavian nations.

If you think China is a true Democratic Socialism, you are an idiot.

What am I saying? You don’t believe in human-caused global warming - you ARE an idiot.

Let me guess, are you from the South as well?

[/quote]

Hit a nerve? No one who can actually read believes in anthropomorphic global warming. To have signed up for that religion you have to be either recently recovering from a 4 year dose of college professor or … heaven forbid … actually BE a college professor.

I’m not sure what long list of definitions fits your criteria for “true democratic socialism” but if YOU don’t think China is a planned economy … YOU are an idiot.

Are you really from Utah and if so why haven’t the usually level headed mormons killed you off yet?

[quote]orion wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

To call the China of today a planned economy must be a joke?

Right?

[/quote]

If you are suggesting the obvious … that the communist party of China has adopted some free market reforms in order not to go the way of the USSR … you would be right. If you are suggesting that they aren’t still a heavily state controlled economy … you would be wrong.

Here’s a short excerpt from Wikipedia for your enlightenment …

The State Constitution of 1982 specified that the state is to guide the country’s economic development by making broad decisions on economic priorities and policies, and that the State Council, which exercises executive control, was to direct its subordinate bodies in preparing and implementing the national economic plan and the state budget. A major portion of the government system (bureaucracy) is devoted to managing the economy in a top-down chain of command with all but a few of the more than 100 ministries, commissions, administrations, bureaus, academies, and corporations under the State Council are concerned with economic matters.
Each significant economic sector is supervised and controlled by one or more of these organizations, which includes the People’s Bank of China, National Development and Reform Commission, Ministry of Finance, and the ministries of agriculture; coal industry; commerce; communications; education; light industry; metallurgical industry; petroleum industry; railways; textile industry; and water resources and electric power. Several aspects of the economy are administered by specialized departments under the State Council, including the National Bureau of Statistics, Civil Aviation Administration of China, and the tourism bureau. Each of the economic organizations under the State Council directs the units under its jurisdiction through subordinate offices at the provincial and local levels.

etc, etc, etc.

There’s a good article here from Friedman, hardly a socialist:

[quote]wirewound wrote:
There’s a good article here from Friedman, hardly a socialist:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/22/
opinion/22friedman.html?hp[/quote]

I do not see his point.

If oil is not expensive enough to make people switch to alternatives, why make it artificially expensive?

This is nothing the market could not handle.

Plus, to subsidize some alternative energies by inventing “incentives” is the usual hubris of government officials to think to know where the next breakthrough will, or should, take us.

They never do.

Someone makes cold fusion work in five years and suddenly all the “incentives” for solar power were wasted money.

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
orion wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

To call the China of today a planned economy must be a joke?

Right?

If you are suggesting the obvious … that the communist party of China has adopted some free market reforms in order not to go the way of the USSR … you would be right. If you are suggesting that they aren’t still a heavily state controlled economy … you would be wrong.

Here’s a short excerpt from Wikipedia for your enlightenment …

The State Constitution of 1982 specified that the state is to guide the country’s economic development by making broad decisions on economic priorities and policies, and that the State Council, which exercises executive control, was to direct its subordinate bodies in preparing and implementing the national economic plan and the state budget.

A major portion of the government system (bureaucracy) is devoted to managing the economy in a top-down chain of command with all but a few of the more than 100 ministries, commissions, administrations, bureaus, academies, and corporations under the State Council are concerned with economic matters.

Each significant economic sector is supervised and controlled by one or more of these organizations, which includes the People’s Bank of China, National Development and Reform Commission, Ministry of Finance, and the ministries of agriculture; coal industry; commerce; communications; education; light industry; metallurgical industry; petroleum industry; railways; textile industry; and water resources and electric power.

Several aspects of the economy are administered by specialized departments under the State Council, including the National Bureau of Statistics, Civil Aviation Administration of China, and the tourism bureau. Each of the economic organizations under the State Council directs the units under its jurisdiction through subordinate offices at the provincial and local levels.

etc, etc, etc.[/quote]

Look, I can do that too:

http://www.businessweek.com/
1999/99_39/b3648087.htm

China’s New Capitalism (int’l edition)
As the state sector crumbles, dynamic private companies are taking up some of the slack

http://online.wsj.com/public/
article/SB116639648334652910-t4BzVrA4dek81g56tK2nXHzJU4c_20070423.html

How Capitalist Transformation
Exposes Holes in China’s Government

China’s Biggest GambleCan it have capitalism without democracy? A prediction.

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:
wirewound wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

Always with China and Soviet Union, always ignoring true Democratic Socialism ala the Scandanavian nations.

If you think China is a true Democratic Socialism, you are an idiot.

What am I saying? You don’t believe in human-caused global warming - you ARE an idiot.

Let me guess, are you from the South as well?

Hit a nerve? No one who can actually read believes in anthropomorphic global warming. To have signed up for that religion you have to be either recently recovering from a 4 year dose of college professor or … heaven forbid … actually BE a college professor.

I’m not sure what long list of definitions fits your criteria for “true democratic socialism” but if YOU don’t think China is a planned economy … YOU are an idiot.

Are you really from Utah and if so why haven’t the usually level headed mormons killed you off yet?
[/quote]

The Mormons are level headed? Have you met a Mormon?

China may be a planned economy, but it’s not a true democracy - unlike the Scandinavian socialist systems.

[quote]wirewound wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
wirewound wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

Always with China and Soviet Union, always ignoring true Democratic Socialism ala the Scandanavian nations.

If you think China is a true Democratic Socialism, you are an idiot.

What am I saying? You don’t believe in human-caused global warming - you ARE an idiot.

Let me guess, are you from the South as well?

Hit a nerve? No one who can actually read believes in anthropomorphic global warming. To have signed up for that religion you have to be either recently recovering from a 4 year dose of college professor or … heaven forbid … actually BE a college professor.

I’m not sure what long list of definitions fits your criteria for “true democratic socialism” but if YOU don’t think China is a planned economy … YOU are an idiot.

Are you really from Utah and if so why haven’t the usually level headed mormons killed you off yet?

The Mormons are level headed? Have you met a Mormon?

China may be a planned economy, but it’s not a true democracy - unlike the Scandinavian socialist systems.[/quote]

Which just shows what a farce democracies can become.

The closed society, again, in the name of progress…

Now that is an original idea, isn´t it?

That was a rethorical question btw…

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
Interesting article. A few questions:

  1. If oil companies have 68 million acres alloted for exploring/drilling, and they haven’t touched it, how can they claim they need more oil fields? or that a democratic congress has prevented oil exploration, etc. What do you think about this?

Because the oil companies have a better idea of where they want to drill than Congress or you or I. If they think ANWR or coastal drilling is more productive than somewhere else then they should get a crack at it.
[/quote]

Here’s a Friday WSJ piece on this very issue.

The ‘Idle’ Oil Field Fallacy
By RED CAVANEY
June 20, 2008; Page A13

A bill introduced in Congress this week would “compel” oil and natural gas companies to produce from federal lands they are leasing. If only it were that easy to find and produce oil. Imagine, an act of Congress that could do what geology could not.

These lawmakers ask why oil and gas companies want more access to federal lands to drill if they aren’t using all of the 68 million acres they already have? Anyone with even the most basic understanding of how oil and natural gas are produced �?? and this should include many members of Congress �?? knows that claims of “idle” leases are a diversionary feint.

A company bids for and buys a lease because it believes there is a possibility that it may yield enough oil or natural gas to make the cost of the lease, and the costs of exploration and production, commercially viable. The U.S. government received $3.7 billion from company bids in a single lease sale in March 2008.

However, until the actual exploration is complete, a company does not know whether the lease will be productive. If, through exploration, it finds there is no oil or natural gas underneath a lease �?? or that there is not enough to justify the tremendous investment required to bring it to the surface �?? the company cuts its losses by moving on to more promising leases. Yet it continues to pay rent on the lease, atop a leasing bonus fee.

In addition, if the company does not develop the lease within a certain period of time, it must return it to the federal government, forfeiting all its costs. All during this active exploration and evaluation phase, however, the lease is listed as “nonproducing.”

Obviously, companies want to start producing from active fields as soon as possible. However, there are a number of time-consuming steps to be taken before they can do so: Delineation wells must be drilled to size the field, government permits must be obtained, and complex production facilities must be engineered and installed. All this takes considerable time, and during that time, the lease is also listed as “nonproducing.”

Because a lease is not producing, critics tag it as “idle” when, in reality, it is typically being actively explored and developed. Multiply these real-world circumstances by hundreds or thousands of leases, and you end up with the seemingly damning but inaccurate figures our critics cite.

Our companies have made tremendous strides in developing cutting-edge exploration technology. But they are not magicians. They cannot produce oil or natural gas where it does not exist. A significant percentage of federal leases simply may not contain oil and natural gas, especially in commercial quantities.

As I’ve often said, the first step in our business is called “exploration” for a reason. Exploration is time consuming, very costly and involves a great deal of risk.

Importantly, you see neither a drop of usable oil nor a cubic foot of natural gas while it is going on. But it is absolutely essential, and there is nothing “idle” about it. Without the exploration that took place years ago, less domestic oil and natural gas would be available today to meet consumer demand.

In reality, a lease is simply a block on a map, with no guarantee that it contains any resources. If all of them did, one could simply pay for the lease, haul in equipment and start pumping oil. But that only happens in fiction.

And it happens in the minds of those who use the undeveloped-lease argument as a smokescreen to mask their intent to keep America’s vast energy resources locked up underground, despite increasingly strong consumer demand for oil and natural gas.

For exploration to take place, our companies need access to the areas �?? offshore and onshore �?? that we know have the potential to produce the oil and natural gas consumers will need, if ours is to remain a viable economy in an increasingly competitive global marketplace.

Today’s short-term need was yesterday’s long-term opportunity. If Congress had acted on that opportunity years ago, America would not be in the energy bind it finds itself in today. Working with industry, Congress now has the opportunity to help secure America’s energy future. It should not miss the chance again.

Mr. Cavaney is president and CEO of the American Petroleum Institute, the trade association that represents America’s oil and natural gas industry.

[quote]orion wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
orion wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:
someone on this thread said that capitalism does a lousy job with the environment … well here’s a picture from China this morning. I offer it up as an example of what a wonderful job the marxist/planned economy model is doing with the environment …

To call the China of today a planned economy must be a joke?

Right?

If you are suggesting the obvious … that the communist party of China has adopted some free market reforms in order not to go the way of the USSR … you would be right. If you are suggesting that they aren’t still a heavily state controlled economy … you would be wrong.

Here’s a short excerpt from Wikipedia for your enlightenment …

The State Constitution of 1982 specified that the state is to guide the country’s economic development by making broad decisions on economic priorities and policies, and that the State Council, which exercises executive control, was to direct its subordinate bodies in preparing and implementing the national economic plan and the state budget.

A major portion of the government system (bureaucracy) is devoted to managing the economy in a top-down chain of command with all but a few of the more than 100 ministries, commissions, administrations, bureaus, academies, and corporations under the State Council are concerned with economic matters.

Each significant economic sector is supervised and controlled by one or more of these organizations, which includes the People’s Bank of China, National Development and Reform Commission, Ministry of Finance, and the ministries of agriculture; coal industry; commerce; communications; education; light industry; metallurgical industry; petroleum industry; railways; textile industry; and water resources and electric power.

Several aspects of the economy are administered by specialized departments under the State Council, including the National Bureau of Statistics, Civil Aviation Administration of China, and the tourism bureau. Each of the economic organizations under the State Council directs the units under its jurisdiction through subordinate offices at the provincial and local levels.

etc, etc, etc.

Look, I can do that too:

http://www.businessweek.com/
1999/99_39/b3648087.htm

China’s New Capitalism (int’l edition)
As the state sector crumbles, dynamic private companies are taking up some of the slack

http://online.wsj.com/public/

article/SB116639648334652910-

t4BzVrA4dek81g56tK2nXHzJU4c_20070423.html

How Capitalist Transformation
Exposes Holes in China’s Government

China’s Biggest GambleCan it have capitalism without democracy? A prediction.[/quote]

I think we’re talking past each other. You keep citing the fact that China has adopted some market capitalism. I keep pointing out that China is still a command and control … centrally planned economy. The communist party is still largely in control of everything.

They’ve determined that the only way they are going to survive is to adopt SOME aspects of a free economy. Whether they will be able to keep control is another matter …

So we’re BOTH right unless you’re attempting to say that China has a free economy in the mold of what we in the West would consider free?

This originally came up because someone tried to make the unsupportable point that capitalism destroys the environment … when in fact the cleanest countries on the planet (europe/NA/Japan) are all capitalist and the dirtiest all have or have recently had aspects of a government controlled economy … (Russia and the former eastern bloc, china, brazil, India, etc)

Anyway …

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
100meters wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

Tell me, from where did you draw your numbers stating that increased domestic drilling will only have a five cent decrease in the price of gas, over the course of twenty years?

Lumpy, are you making shit up? tsk, tsk…

Bush’s dept of Energy.
ANWR: U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis
Coastal: U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

A 75 cent reduction in a barrel of oil = pennies on a gallon of gas. Add in the coastal which will have production rates half of ANWR (theoretically) and you get a couple more pennies. OVER A DECADE FROM NOW!

Boy oh Boy were you duped!

Although I’m surprised that you were able to produce links to your foolish numbers, they’re still just that; foolish numbers. (A) we both know that the gas prices are highly speculative and that nobody, not even “Bush’s energy dept.” can foretell the actual effect that increased domestic drilling will have on fuel prices. (B) It makes me laugh when you deride the Bush administration for EVERYTHING, yet you swallow these numbers like they were a holy nugget. LOL! your inconsistent.

I think that deep down inside, somewhere DEEP inside the recesses of that ultra liberal soul of yours, you know that ramping up domestic drilling and beefing up supply will have a beneficial effect on fuel prices. You just can’t admit it here on this forum.

And I’m sure apologies from you to readers forthcoming…?

Nope. For what would I apologize for? Your arguments seem to infer that I am in favor of increased domestic drilling only, and that I am opposed to pursuing future energy sources. That has never been the case. My position has always been that we need to increase domestic supply while at the same time pursuing future energy sources. And don’t give me that whiny bullshit about “It’ll take soooo long to get going and get the oil”. You sound like my eight year old when he comes to me crying about how loooong it’s gonna take to pick up the dog shit in the backyard.

Boo fucking hoo. The sooner we get started, the sooner we get there. If we would have started ten years ago, we’d be ten years ahead of where we are now, now wouldn’t we.

[/quote]

Interesting your numbers are from? Oh, I forget you didn’t really have any.

And the apology would be for your incorrect assumption of me (deliberately mislabeled “lumpy”) “making up numbers”.

As always the rules are quite strange here. You are free to make up what you want and are cheered for it. I provide factual information, which in here is routinely slammed as “straight from the DNC pipeline”, but you went with “made up”. Then of course using Bush’s energy dept. as source is attacked. Quite strange.

I’d love to hear from you just how much you expect to save on gasoline 10-15 years from now per gallon. You can just make it up of course, you guys always do.

Interesting your numbers are from? Oh, I forget you didn’t really have any.

And the apology would be for your incorrect assumption of me (deliberately mislabeled “lumpy”) “making up numbers”.

As always the rules are quite strange here. You are free to make up what you want and are cheered for it. I provide factual information, which in here is routinely slammed as “straight from the DNC pipeline”, but you went with “made up”. Then of course using Bush’s energy dept. as source is attacked. Quite strange.

I’d love to hear from you just how much you expect to save on gasoline 10-15 years from now per gallon. You can just make it up of course, you guys always do.

Listen … the core of your argument is that increasing supply isn’t going to lower price.

You’ve lost the battle before you’ve begun.

If you want some stats, how about these.

-The bureau of land management estimates that we have over 250 billion barrels of proven domestic oil reserves off limits because the liberals have blocked drilling for it. That’s enough to supply us for 22 years without another drop of foreign oil.

-If we had built all the nuclear reactors planned before the liberals went hysterical after three-mile island we’d be well below the Kyoto protocols today without even trying.

  • Democrats asked the president to release the 700 million barrels of oil in the strategic petroleum reserve last week because it will lower prices but argued that getting the 10 billion barrels in ANWR won’t.

(please challenge me on this … I’ll go track the links for you)

[quote]100meters wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
100meters wrote:
bigflamer wrote:

Tell me, from where did you draw your numbers stating that increased domestic drilling will only have a five cent decrease in the price of gas, over the course of twenty years?

Lumpy, are you making shit up? tsk, tsk…

Bush’s dept of Energy.
ANWR: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/results.html
Coastal: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html

A 75 cent reduction in a barrel of oil = pennies on a gallon of gas. Add in the coastal which will have production rates half of ANWR (theoretically) and you get a couple more pennies. OVER A DECADE FROM NOW!

Boy oh Boy were you duped!

Although I’m surprised that you were able to produce links to your foolish numbers, they’re still just that; foolish numbers. (A) we both know that the gas prices are highly speculative and that nobody, not even “Bush’s energy dept.” can foretell the actual effect that increased domestic drilling will have on fuel prices. (B) It makes me laugh when you deride the Bush administration for EVERYTHING, yet you swallow these numbers like they were a holy nugget. LOL! your inconsistent.

I think that deep down inside, somewhere DEEP inside the recesses of that ultra liberal soul of yours, you know that ramping up domestic drilling and beefing up supply will have a beneficial effect on fuel prices. You just can’t admit it here on this forum.

And I’m sure apologies from you to readers forthcoming…?

Nope. For what would I apologize for? Your arguments seem to infer that I am in favor of increased domestic drilling only, and that I am opposed to pursuing future energy sources. That has never been the case. My position has always been that we need to increase domestic supply while at the same time pursuing future energy sources. And don’t give me that whiny bullshit about “It’ll take soooo long to get going and get the oil”. You sound like my eight year old when he comes to me crying about how loooong it’s gonna take to pick up the dog shit in the backyard.

Boo fucking hoo. The sooner we get started, the sooner we get there. If we would have started ten years ago, we’d be ten years ahead of where we are now, now wouldn’t we.

Interesting your numbers are from? Oh, I forget you didn’t really have any.

And the apology would be for your incorrect assumption of me (deliberately mislabeled “lumpy”) “making up numbers”.[/quote]

You’re such a tool. Does your sensitive ego require a full apology? Well fuck off, you won’t get one from me. I will admit to having been wrong on you making up your bullshit numbers, you did actually have a source for your bullshit numbers. Which of course, are speculative guesses, and of course, as already mentioned…bullshit.

What exactly did I make up? Can I now demand from you, your apology?

which of course wasn’t actually factual numbers, just a source for the BS speculative numbers you provided

It is quite strange, and as I’ve already pointed out, slightly inconsistent on your part.

Your ignoring the point I’ve already made, in that the price of gasoline is HIGHLY speculative, and that even the greatest of market prognosticators could never accurately predict what effect the increased domestic drilling will have. If you’re having trouble latching onto that idea, just keep re reading that part until it sinks in.

Now, instead of fishing for silly apologies, why don’t you tell everyone why you are opposed to increasing domestic oil production, while we as a nation pursue alternative energies. And again, nobody wants to hear you whine about how long it would take to extract those resources. I already addressed that issue when I wrote this:

[quote]
Bigflamer wrote:

"And don’t give me that whiny bullshit about “It’ll take soooo long to get going and get the oil”. You sound like my eight year old when he comes to me crying about how loooong it’s gonna take to pick up the dog shit in the backyard.

Boo fucking hoo. The sooner we get started, the sooner we get there. If we would have started ten years ago, we’d be ten years ahead of where we are now, now wouldn’t we."[/quote]

[quote]wirewound wrote:
GreenMountains wrote:

Government should not be playing favorites using the tax code in a true capitalist society. It is none of their fucking business how I or anyone else makes money.

It is very much the government’s business how you make money. If you do it by harming others, or duping the voters, or polluting the environment, it is very much Government’s concern.
[/quote]

Don�??t over analyze. Clearly I�??m talking legal means.

[quote]GreenMountains wrote:
wirewound wrote:
GreenMountains wrote:

Government should not be playing favorites using the tax code in a true capitalist society. It is none of their fucking business how I or anyone else makes money.

It is very much the government’s business how you make money. If you do it by harming others, or duping the voters, or polluting the environment, it is very much Government’s concern.

Donâ¿¿t over analyze. Clearly Iâ¿¿m talking legal means.[/quote]

Anything can become legal. Ethical means are something else entirely.

I don’t think anyone approves of the oppressive regimes of China, the former Soviet Union, or Cuba. But socialism can work in the context of free elected government.