[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
For example, it’s not as if we have a Maori tribesman living down the street from a Russian Jew down the street from a family from Papua New Guineau [/quote]
Ehh… you might in Brooklyn. Maybe not down the street but a few streets over?
[quote]Gregus wrote:
The nation used to be more cohesive. [/quote]
When was this? Let me guess, back when the word “negro” was in vogue?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
nothing hollows out a core of a nation faster than what we call “multiculturalism” and a lack of assimilation of immigrants.
^ this…is what I was trying to get at. Our Diversity is a strength, but can also be a weakness when trying to get a good consensus on issues. The more people have differing cultures and behaviors within one border, the more likely there is to be conflict.
Yes, it’s a problem to the extent people come here and fail to become integrated and simply remaining isolated, rather than adopting American culture but also bringing their own unique elements and shaping and enriching American culture. Like people who come here and don’t learn English and don’t interact in any way with anyone except other immigrants from their homeland.
[/quote]
While some immigrants don’t assimilate as well as others, I think that their children generally do assimilate.
Culture in sense of music and arts in the U.S. really does depend upon where you live, but what does make us unique in the world as a people is our ingenuity and our overall friendliness and openness.
I have traveled quite a bit and I have found that the perception of Americans by foreigners tends to fall into two extremes. Those who have never visited the U.S. either strongly dislike or are skeptical of Americans. Those who have been here love the U.S. One of the biggest things they like about us is that we are perceived as friendly and helpful.
The U.S. is one big extended, sometimes dysfunctional, family and I love it. Personally, I love and miss the diversity of living in a big city. Homogeneity creates monotony. Who wants to surround themselves with only those who think like they do? Sounds boring to me.
The U.S. is a big place filled with micro-cultures, but at the end of the day we are all Americans and whether or not you are a blues fan or a jazz fan, you are a fan of something that is distinctly American.
Baseball. Apple pie. Hot dogs. Rock & Roll. Hollywood. Mom and Dad, 2 kids and a dog. Barbecues. Football. Coca Cola. Mickey Mouse. Blue jeans. Broadway. The Statue of Liberty. Rockefeller Center.
These may not be experienced by all in the country, but they are highly valued and quintessential elements of American culture. And this is to say nothing of worldview, ideology, and approach to life.
As Christine points out, there are also many SUB-cultures in America, breaking down along ethnic, geographic, religious, and interest-based lines, with their own unique traditions and experiences.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Baseball. Apple pie. Hot dogs. Rock & Roll. Hollywood. Mom and Dad, 2 kids and a dog. Barbecues. Football. Coca Cola. Mickey Mouse. Blue jeans. Broadway. The Statue of Liberty. Rockefeller Center.
These may not be experienced by all in the country, but they are highly valued and quintessential elements of American culture. And this is to say nothing of worldview, ideology, and approach to life.
As Christine points out, there are also many SUB-cultures in America, breaking down along ethnic, geographic, religious, and interest-based lines, with their own unique traditions and experiences. [/quote]
Those examples are what comes to mind when you say “America” to me. For the most part, your culture is based on stereotypes and what you grow up with, because if I were to ask someone on the street what they thought American culture was, they would no longer say it was one of Fenway, flat beers and hot dogs. They’d probably say arrogance and over indulgence. A bit sad, seeing as it doesn’t apply to a lot of you here.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Baseball. Apple pie. Hot dogs. Rock & Roll. Hollywood. Mom and Dad, 2 kids and a dog. Barbecues. Football. Coca Cola. Mickey Mouse. Blue jeans. Broadway. The Statue of Liberty. Rockefeller Center.
These may not be experienced by all in the country, but they are highly valued and quintessential elements of American culture. And this is to say nothing of worldview, ideology, and approach to life.
As Christine points out, there are also many SUB-cultures in America, breaking down along ethnic, geographic, religious, and interest-based lines, with their own unique traditions and experiences. [/quote]
Those examples are what comes to mind when you say “America” to me. For the most part, your culture is based on stereotypes and what you grow up with, because if I were to ask someone on the street what they thought American culture was, they would no longer say it was one of Fenway, flat beers and hot dogs. They’d probably say arrogance and over indulgence. A bit sad, seeing as it doesn’t apply to a lot of you here.
This was the first result when I made an image search in google with the words ‘american art’. The search didn’t yield any Pollock paintings in the first 10 pages, so I guess he’s not the icon I consider him to be. Maybe true american culture has a strong gothic streak even today?
Then there is the american culture that the american dream industry spews out. The whole world knows it and where ever you go, there is always somebody lamenting about the americanization of the world.
Optimistic spirit is also something that is commonly thought to be characteristically american. It’s hard to believe that it is true when you read the PWI forum.
If america has a problem with culture it is because there is too much of it. Seen in that light, I think the Pledge of Allegiance was a smart move after all.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
nothing hollows out a core of a nation faster than what we call “multiculturalism” and a lack of assimilation of immigrants.
^ this…is what I was trying to get at. Our Diversity is a strength, but can also be a weakness when trying to get a good consensus on issues. The more people have differing cultures and behaviors within one border, the more likely there is to be conflict.
[/quote]
But does not diversity require that you agree on some very fundamental level?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Baseball. Apple pie. Hot dogs. Rock & Roll. Hollywood. Mom and Dad, 2 kids and a dog. Barbecues. Football. Coca Cola. Mickey Mouse. Blue jeans. Broadway. The Statue of Liberty. Rockefeller Center.
These may not be experienced by all in the country, but they are highly valued and quintessential elements of American culture. And this is to say nothing of worldview, ideology, and approach to life.
As Christine points out, there are also many SUB-cultures in America, breaking down along ethnic, geographic, religious, and interest-based lines, with their own unique traditions and experiences.
Those examples are what comes to mind when you say “America” to me. For the most part, your culture is based on stereotypes and what you grow up with, because if I were to ask someone on the street what they thought American culture was, they would no longer say it was one of Fenway, flat beers and hot dogs. They’d probably say arrogance and over indulgence. A bit sad, seeing as it doesn’t apply to a lot of you here.[/quote]
Well, that’s all well-and good. If someone were to ask most Americans what French culture consists of, they’d probably say haughtiness and cheese. That doesn’t mean that’s all there is to French culture. Or that these things weren’t and don’t remain part of the American fabric and something a majority of Americans identify with.
Arrogance and overindulgence are an attitude (that some American in and out of government have). Not the traditions that contribute to the fabric of a society.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Is America an Nation with no culture? Is it a benefit, or does it have the potential to further create divisions in the country?
[/quote]
This is true; however, I think you are correct for the wrong reason. Culture is every pattern of behavior that is learned (cultivated) – from how we bathe to how we pray (or not), etc. Without culture there can be no civilization because without learning there is no civilization. Culture is a manifestation of environment and language (how our ideas are formed) and every quality that falls within the manifold of culture (e.g., religion, art) can be understood as an extension of those and only those two objects.
The fallacy you make is to assume there should be a “common culture” in the US when in fact every geographical region in the US is distinctly different and therefore would manifest different cultures. It would be impossible for a nation as large as the US to have a common culture.
The smallest social unit exhibiting a culture would be a family or tribe; this is also the largest social unit that would exhibit a “common culture”. Once we start to observe social units larger than that (cities, states) we will start to see divergences in culture and therefore they could not be considered “common”.
Social units without a common culture cannot survive because there is no identity that ties the individuals within that social units together – at the very least a common language is needed and once that is gone there is no possibility for survival.
This is why secession from centralized government is so important to the survival of any civilization. In fact, what we are witnessing could be considered decivilization brought about by forced integration of cultures made possible by egalitarian ideology and the strong arm of government (lack of property rights, etc.).
This does not mean that different cultures cannot peaceably coexist as long as the interactions between them are completely voluntary.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Gregus wrote:
The nation used to be more cohesive.
When was this? Let me guess, back when the word “negro” was in vogue? [/quote]
When did the word negro come out of vogue? 
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Is America an Nation with no culture? Is it a benefit, or does it have the potential to further create divisions in the country?
Can a Nation without a common culture survive? Can it come together as a people?
I think a Nation without a common culture can survive, but with great strife.
Comments?[/quote]
What do you really mean by culture? It is used in many conflicting ways. For instance, it often means some set of art/music that we associate with a particular social group (like Italian Opera with Puccini and Verdi). Having lived extensively in Europe, I have seen the US sniffily dismissed as being completely culture-less. That is if you accept their specific definition of culture. It means something else to a Biologist who has a culture sitting in a jar on her shelf… So definitions are the key here.
I think what you want to do is think of it as “that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society.” (From E. Tylor’s book, published in 1871 – still the best I can find.) In other words, the whole range of learned behaviors we get constitutes culture.
So, yes there are many, many variations on this, but is there a distinctly American culture? YES! A very powerful one too. Read de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America”, published in about 1835 (quick and dirty intro is here Democracy in America - Wikipedia). What eh says about America and Americans resonates fully to this day. As I said, I lived abroad for many years and often saw Americans who regardless of their social or economic background realized very quickly indeed that they were part of a unified culture. Several of my best friends were Black and admitted to their supreme bafflement that they were Americans first and Black second. I would argue that the American Revolution was as much caused by the fact that we had already made a cultural split from Britain by the 1750’s, with an emphasis on public virtue, free trade, open, democratic government and a general contempt for rule by twits.
So in short, US culture is centered more on things like political institutions, law, engineering and commerce. No, we don’t have imposing art, but American music has taken the world by storm and – as one UK historian so admirably put it – “of all the revolutions that have come and gone, only Mr. Jefferson’s still inspires.”
And as always, I just might be full of shit…
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
Is America an Nation with no culture? Is it a benefit, or does it have the potential to further create divisions in the country?
Can a Nation without a common culture survive? Can it come together as a people?
I think a Nation without a common culture can survive, but with great strife.
Comments?
What do you really mean by culture? It is used in many conflicting ways. For instance, it often means some set of art/music that we associate with a particular social group (like Italian Opera with Puccini and Verdi). Having lived extensively in Europe, I have seen the US sniffily dismissed as being completely culture-less. That is if you accept their specific definition of culture. It means something else to a Biologist who has a culture sitting in a jar on her shelf… So definitions are the key here.
I think what you want to do is think of it as “that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society.” (From E. Tylor’s book, published in 1871 – still the best I can find.) In other words, the whole range of learned behaviors we get constitutes culture.
So, yes there are many, many variations on this, but is there a distinctly American culture? YES! A very powerful one too. Read de Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America”, published in about 1835 (quick and dirty intro is here Democracy in America - Wikipedia). What eh says about America and Americans resonates fully to this day. As I said, I lived abroad for many years and often saw Americans who regardless of their social or economic background realized very quickly indeed that they were part of a unified culture. Several of my best friends were Black and admitted to their supreme bafflement that they were Americans first and Black second. I would argue that the American Revolution was as much caused by the fact that we had already made a cultural split from Britain by the 1750’s, with an emphasis on public virtue, free trade, open, democratic government and a general contempt for rule by twits.
So in short, US culture is centered more on things like political institutions, law, engineering and commerce. No, we don’t have imposing art, but American music has taken the world by storm and – as one UK historian so admirably put it – “of all the revolutions that have come and gone, only Mr. Jefferson’s still inspires.”
And as always, I just might be full of shit…
– jj[/quote]
Well, when you claim that you don’t have imposing art you are full of shit.
[quote]orion wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
nothing hollows out a core of a nation faster than what we call “multiculturalism” and a lack of assimilation of immigrants.
^ this…is what I was trying to get at. Our Diversity is a strength, but can also be a weakness when trying to get a good consensus on issues. The more people have differing cultures and behaviors within one border, the more likely there is to be conflict.
But does not diversity require that you agree on some very fundamental level?
[/quote]
NO!! Diversity assumes that there are really no differences to start with that can’t be amended with a bureaucratic directive. Think that your co-workers are in league with the Devil? No problem, we’ll have diversity training tomorrow where we can all embrace each other’s differences.
I am adamantly opposed to “diversity” as a movement. I lived in Germany and got shoved into a Turkish ghetto because I was foreign. Multi-culturalism is just a fancy word for what we used to call segregation people.
What you really want is tolerance. That is a social contract* for people who cannot stand each other but agree that they must build a future together. A side-effect of real tolerance will be a more diverse society, but the relationship between these two is roughly the same as between doing something of value and being happy about it vs. self-esteem coaching.
And as always, I might just be full of shit…
[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
And as always, I just might be full of shit…
– jj
Well, when you claim that you don’t have imposing art you are full of shit.[/quote]
Now that I fully admit to. :o)
FWIW I was trained initially as a classical musician (child prodigy, looooong story) and have first hand experience with playing both here in the US and in Europe.
The US lacks many of the public monuments found Europe (Cathedrals, palaces) and the art that was created mostly on commission for these. This is due to the fact that public monies are just not used for such things (can you imagine what the outcry against having the Federal Government build a church?) and since this will be done privately, we just haven’t been at it that long.
On the other hand, we rock. Literally…
– jj
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
The American culture is a culture of it being whatever anyone wants it to be for themselves and their family. Case in point is the disagreements on all levels little and large on this very thread. It’s a very individual thing to each American.
The nation used to be more cohesive.
I don’t think so. 100 years ago, “American culture” meant something very different for the black family living in Mississippi then it did for the white Bostonian, and that was very different from what the Irish cop in NY or the Italian in Chicago.
When a country is so mixed and fucked around with like ours is, it’s hard to nail something down as “Well, this is definitely American,” be it a meal or a movie that everyone likes or a belief system or whatever.
Thus, I think American “traits” emerge as opposed to definitive elements- things like, as I said, ingenuity, drive, determination, etc. They’re really the only things that can bind us in a nation like this.[/quote]
But that’s exaclt what i said.
“he American culture is a culture of it being whatever anyone wants it to be for themselves and their family”
So i meant what you described.
Lol, i see what you did there.
