A Gay Conundrum

[quote]makkun wrote:

The last sentence is exemplifies exactly why I don’t really trust the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument: It let’s “gay repugnants” put people who display gay behaviour into the same sentences as killers, thiefs, liars and pedophiles. The association speaks for itself. Why not choose other sinners like firefighters, police(wo)men or soldiers - if we are supposedly all sinners, this would be just as adequate. Just an observation…

Makkun[/quote]

Really good point makkun, I’m ashamed I didn’t pick that up. There’s also about 4 spelling errors in that last sentence alone.

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
makkun wrote:

The last sentence is exemplifies exactly why I don’t really trust the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument: It let’s “gay repugnants” put people who display gay behaviour into the same sentences as killers, thiefs, liars and pedophiles. The association speaks for itself. Why not choose other sinners like firefighters, police(wo)men or soldiers - if we are supposedly all sinners, this would be just as adequate. Just an observation…

Makkun

Really good point makkun, I’m ashamed I didn’t pick that up. There’s also about 4 spelling errors in that last sentence alone.

[/quote]

How can there be 4 spelling errors if there are only three words?

[quote]911 Girl wrote:
Orbitalboner wrote:
makkun wrote:

The last sentence is exemplifies exactly why I don’t really trust the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument: It let’s “gay repugnants” put people who display gay behaviour into the same sentences as killers, thiefs, liars and pedophiles. The association speaks for itself. Why not choose other sinners like firefighters, police(wo)men or soldiers - if we are supposedly all sinners, this would be just as adequate. Just an observation…

Makkun

Really good point makkun, I’m ashamed I didn’t pick that up. There’s also about 4 spelling errors in that last sentence alone.

How can there be 4 spelling errors if there are only three words? [/quote]

I think he meant in the whole sentence, and then he meant the words:
wether, theif, Lier, pedifile.

mAkun :wink:

[quote]makkun wrote:
911 Girl wrote:
Orbitalboner wrote:
makkun wrote:

The last sentence is exemplifies exactly why I don’t really trust the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument: It let’s “gay repugnants” put people who display gay behaviour into the same sentences as killers, thiefs, liars and pedophiles. The association speaks for itself. Why not choose other sinners like firefighters, police(wo)men or soldiers - if we are supposedly all sinners, this would be just as adequate. Just an observation…

Makkun

Really good point makkun, I’m ashamed I didn’t pick that up. There’s also about 4 spelling errors in that last sentence alone.

How can there be 4 spelling errors if there are only three words?

I think he meant in the whole sentence, and then he meant the words:
wether, theif, Lier, pedifile.

mAkun ;-)[/quote]

I know of several spelling errors in the firstish sentence not the
lastish :wink:

To address some of the other points people have made:

  1. How can you say something is “unnatural” when a visible percentage of the population always displays it as a trait, generation after generation, century after century? And when furthermore it is occurs in the wild, untamed animal world as well as the human population?

What is UNNATURAL about that?

Unnatural means artificial. I can’t see anything ARTIFICIAL about a trait exhibited by humans for all of recorded history, and that happens in the animal kingdom at large as well. (Yes there ARE gay and lesbian mice, penguins, seagulls, etc. )

Just because something happens among a MINORITY does not mean it is not UNNATURAL.

I’m left handed, does that mean I am UNNATURAL?

Is it NATURAL if blue is your favourite colour, but UNNATURAL if red is?

  1. I can’t comprehend why anyone could have anything to say about what goes on between two consenting adults. If they want to engage in missionary style heterosexual sex, that’s their business. If they want to get naked and throw pies in each others faces, that’s their business. If they want to spank each other and bark like dogs that’s their business. If they want to pierce each other with accupuncture needles, put clothes pegs on their genitals, and wear rubber masks, that’s really none of anybody’s business. (* Maybe this last one isn’t ‘natural’ :wink: )

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
However, whenever anyone does stipulate that homosexuality is not a choice, invariably someone immediately chimes in that {sexual criminals, murderous psychopaths, insert favorite species of social defective here} don’t have any choice either.

Perhaps this creates the impression chillpzico is referring to. Or perhaps chilpzico is trying to create the impression chillpzico is referring to.[/quote]

Behaviors that clearly and obviously hurt others must be punished and condemmed regardless of choice. Homsexuality arugably hurts society in some tenuous, undefined, unproven way. This does not fit that definition. The morality of it is a different issue that should not be determined legally.

[quote]John K wrote:
To address some of the other points people have made:

  1. How can you say something is “unnatural” when a visible percentage of the population always displays it as a trait, generation after generation, century after century? And when furthermore it is occurs in the wild, untamed animal world as well as the human population?

What is UNNATURAL about that?[/quote]

Because something is carried on for many years does not mean that it is natural. Is it “natural” to kill someone for no reason? That has been going on for thousands of years. Pedophilia, bestiality and polygamy have been going on for thousands of years as well. “Natural” in this sense does not mean Productive, positive or beneficial for society.

As to your animal example, perhaps you should do some reading:

http://www.narth.com/docs/animalmyth.html

No, in this sense it means “against nature.” “Natural” would be a man and woman having sex with each other as that is what they are specifically built for!

No that simply means you enjoy one color over another. That has nothing to do with the “nature of things.”

[quote]2. I can’t comprehend why anyone could have anything to say about what goes on between two consenting adults. If they want to engage in missionary style heterosexual sex, that’s their business. If they want to get naked and throw pies in each others faces, that’s their business. If they want to spank each other and bark like dogs that’s their business. If they want to pierce each other with accupuncture needles, put clothes pegs on their genitals, and wear rubber masks, that’s really none of anybody’s business. (* Maybe this last one isn’t ‘natural’ :wink: )
[/quote]

I couldn’t agree with you more! I say this is America and it’s none of our business what two consenting male or female adults want to do in the privacy of their home. As long as a 5000 year old institution does not have to change to meet this “need” of theirs I have no problem with it at all. And I in fact would protect their right to engage in such behavior!

I would be thrilled to the marrow of my bones if someone could actually present a well reasoned explanation of how exactly homosexuality and it’s attendant behaviors harms society, the human race and/or “traditional” marriage. This argument is usually just plopped out there without any supporting evidence beyond “it makes me feel icky” or “well in my particular Holy Book it says blah de blah”.

To both assertions I say so freakin’ what? The litmus test for our founding daddies was does it pick my (or anyones) pocket or break my (or anyones) leg?

And a news flash for some of you religious folk out there: the Bible is not arranged chronologically, i.e. Genesis was not the first book written. Oh and the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality. It was about cruelty, greed and their callous attitude towards the poor and unfortunate. Read Ezekekiel 16:48-50 if you’re confused about that.

And I’d really like to thank the progressive and moderate members of the forum for chiming in. Sometimes for us queers it looks like the camps and ovens will be up and running any day and no one will do anything about it. This makes me feel a little less threatened.

Oh, you people and your 5000 year old institution. You need to read a bit of cultural and social history, including that of the ancient Hebrews. This traditional marriage you keep babbling about is one of those historical fallacies. The nuclear family is a fairly recent and artificial invention.

5000 years ago people married cousins, sisters, multiple partners, people they didn’t love, through political arrangement, etc. The point is marriage changes throughout history and from culture to culture. In fact some societies didn’t see the point of a man being able to essentially own the woman/women he called wives.

It made more sense to them that the women should own the men. And there is no such person called Antony the Great any where in history. Perhaps you menat Alexander. The historian Herodotus recounts more than one story of tribes and cultures whose marriage customs were distinctly different than that of the Greeks.

For queers in history, there are a few wall panels from Sumerian archeological sites that depict man-on-man, girl-on-girl and boy-on-girl sex. The one with the man and woman doin’ it doggy style while drinking beer through long straws is my personal favorite.

But please, enough with the exclusive marriage club. I mean really, get over it.

[quote]guerriere wrote:
I would be thrilled to the marrow of my bones if someone could actually present a well reasoned explanation of how exactly homosexuality and it’s attendant behaviors harms society, the human race and/or “traditional” marriage. This argument is usually just plopped out there without any supporting evidence beyond “it makes me feel icky” or “well in my particular Holy Book it says blah de blah”.

To both assertions I say so freakin’ what? The litmus test for our founding daddies was does it pick my (or anyones) pocket or break my (or anyones) leg?[/quote]

“So freakin what?” I think you are the one who is being closed minded regarding the traditon of 99% of the population! If you have studied history you would see that homosexual marriage among the ancient peoples was (over all) never accepted. It was considered (at that time) a detestable practice and barely tolerated. Read your history!

You are partially correct. It was about the many sins of Sodom and Gommorah, including homosexuality. However, over and above that there are many passages in the Bible which condemn the homosexual practice. That subject has been done to death, but I’d be glad to do it again, I have three days off…

That is perhaps the most ridiculous statement that I have ever read when debating this topic! Those who are agasint homosexual marriage (on this board) have never once advocated such treatment. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that no one should be discriminated against because of their sexual preference.

In America you currently have the right to “sleep with” any other consenting adult be that adult male or female. How can you consider that a bad thing? Don’t you think that homosexuals are better off in 2005 than they were even 20-40 years ago?

Let me know how “tolerant” homosexuals would be if heterosexuals wanted to change a homosexual tradition. I can see the Gay parades with people marching in protest…

[quote]guerriere wrote:
Oh, you people and your 5000 year old institution. You need to read a bit of cultural and social history, including that of the ancient Hebrews. This traditional marriage you keep babbling about is one of those historical fallacies. The nuclear family is a fairly recent and artificial invention.

5000 years ago people married cousins, sisters, multiple partners, people they didn’t love, through political arrangement, etc. The point is marriage changes throughout history and from culture to culture. In fact some societies didn’t see the point of a man being able to essentially own the woman/women he called wives.[/quote]

All true however you can never point to any time in history where homosexual marriage was sanctioned by any authority of repute!

[quote]For queers in history, there are a few wall panels from Sumerian archeological sites that depict man-on-man, girl-on-girl and boy-on-girl sex. The one with the man and woman doin’ it doggy style while drinking beer through long straws is my personal favorite.

But please, enough with the exclusive marriage club. I mean really, get over it. [/quote]

Yes, there are plenty of drawings on walls. Some of them show sexual positions others show men fighting, still others beheadings, some drinking blood etc. so what?

Are we to take this as meaning everything that was written on walls should be repeated?

What’s the point really?

(Anyone ever see a Gay wedding on an ancient wall?)

Thank you for the correction. About Alexander

[quote]guerriere wrote:
Oh, you people and your 5000 year old institution. You need to read a bit of cultural and social history, including that of the ancient Hebrews. This traditional marriage you keep babbling about is one of those historical fallacies. The nuclear family is a fairly recent and artificial invention.

5000 years ago people married cousins, sisters, multiple partners, people they didn’t love, through political arrangement, etc. The point is marriage changes throughout history and from culture to culture. In fact some societies didn’t see the point of a man being able to essentially own the woman/women he called wives.

It made more sense to them that the women should own the men. And there is no such person called Antony the Great any where in history. Perhaps you menat Alexander. The historian Herodotus recounts more than one story of tribes and cultures whose marriage customs were distinctly different than that of the Greeks.

For queers in history, there are a few wall panels from Sumerian archeological sites that depict man-on-man, girl-on-girl and boy-on-girl sex. The one with the man and woman doin’ it doggy style while drinking beer through long straws is my personal favorite.

But please, enough with the exclusive marriage club. I mean really, get over it. [/quote]

[quote]guerriere wrote:
I would be thrilled to the marrow of my bones if someone could actually present a well reasoned explanation of how exactly homosexuality and it’s attendant behaviors harms society, the human race and/or “traditional” marriage. This argument is usually just plopped out there without any supporting evidence beyond “it makes me feel icky” or “well in my particular Holy Book it says blah de blah”.

To both assertions I say so freakin’ what? The litmus test for our founding daddies was does it pick my (or anyones) pocket or break my (or anyones) leg?

And a news flash for some of you religious folk out there: the Bible is not arranged chronologically, i.e. Genesis was not the first book written. Oh and the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality. It was about cruelty, greed and their callous attitude towards the poor and unfortunate. Read Ezekekiel 16:48-50 if you’re confused about that.

And I’d really like to thank the progressive and moderate members of the forum for chiming in. Sometimes for us queers it looks like the camps and ovens will be up and running any day and no one will do anything about it. This makes me feel a little less threatened.[/quote]

I don?t think you will ever be thrilled to the marrow of your bones your mind seems pretty well made up.
I believe many people have explained how it injures a segment of society. But you just refuse to see it.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I don?t think you will ever be thrilled to the marrow of your bones your mind seems pretty well made up.
I believe many people have explained how it injures a segment of society. But you just refuse to see it.

[/quote]

Wtf are you talking about? Please point me to the exact place where it was explained how homosexuality is injurous to society.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe many people have explained how it injures a segment of society. But you just refuse to see it.[/quote]

No, no, no. Gay marriage doesn’t injure anyone. There is a segment of society, however, which injures themselves with a disproportionate HATRED of gay marriage, fed by a disproportionate INTEREST in gays, inspired by a disproportionate IMPORTANCE placed on certain passages in a certain book.

There is one and only one sentence in the bible which is clearly against homosexuality, from which you are more than welcome to conclude that YOU should not be homosexual.

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
Wtf are you talking about? Please point me to the exact place where it was explained how homosexuality is injurous to society.[/quote]

First of all the onus is on the various Gay lobby groups, or anyone for that matter, to prove how homosexual marriage will not harm the institution!

Why would we march head strong into expanding the definition of marriage not knowing for sure that it would not harm society? In fact, all the early evidence, shows that there would be a dramatic negative consequence.

Why would any thinking group of people change such an institution on a whim?

Society depends on stable families as the basic structure of civilization. Marriage provides the basis for the family, which remains the strongest and most important social unit. There is a wealth of data that attest to this fact!

With that stated let’s look at the potential negative effects of same sex unions:

  1. Financial drain- As columnist Maggie Gallagher writes: "When men and women fail to form stable marriages, the first result is a vast expansion of government attempts to cope with the terrible social needs that result.

There is scarcely a dollar that state and federal government spends on social programs that is not driven in large part by FAMILY FRAGMENTAION: crime, poverty, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, school failure, and mental and physical health problems."

Do you think Gay marriage would reduce these statistics, or add to them?

  1. We don’t know how one becomes Gay as yet. Granted the powerful Gay lobby wants us to think that people are born that way. However, there is not one shred of evidence to back this up. Hence, why place children in the home of two Gay people? Is it possible that this would influence children to become Gay? Before you judge harshly these comments, think about it; homosexual youths are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers!

(more on the effects on children later). For now here is some interesting reading:

http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html

  1. Homosexuals comprise only (approximately) 1% to 2% of the total population. To change the institution of marriage for so few would be positively asinine. Once the institution is changed what is to stop other groups from crying discrimination and demanding marriage rights? Polygamists, Incest, bestiality perhaps even pedophilia (If you laugh at the last one go to the NAMBLA website-SICK).

“Things” always lead to other “things.” We do not exist in a vacuum!

  1. We don’t know the long term effect on children brought up with a Gay couple. The early results are not positive:

“Although the evidence on child outcomes is sketchy, it does suggest that children raised by lesbians or homosexual men are more likely to experience gender and sexual disorders.”

Study by: Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz, “(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter?” American Sociological Review

  1. Homosexuality is a “behavior” not a “gender” or “race.” Hence, not entitled to any special rights including expanding the definition of marriage. No more than any other behavior (held by under 2% of the population) would be. See above for other potential forms of marriage.

  2. rampid promiscuity among homosexual couples:

In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, M. Pollak found,

"few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.

Even in those homosexual relationships in which the partners consider themselves to be in a committed relationship, the meaning of “committed” typically means something radically different than in heterosexual marriage.

? In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison report that in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years:

Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years.

Stated another way, ALL COUPLES WITH A RELATIONSHIP LASTING MORE THAN FIVE YEARS INCORPORATED SOME PROVISION FOR OUTSIDE SEXUAL ACTIVITY IN THEIR RELATIONSHIPS!"

Most understood sexual relations outside the relationship to be the norm, and viewed adopting monogamous standards as an act of OPPRESSION."

For additional reading on the topic:

http://www.corporateresourcecouncil.org/white_papers/Health_Risks.pdf

  1. Children usually do better when there is a mother and a father present.
    If same-sex civil marriage becomes common, most same-sex couples with children would be lesbian couples.

"This would mean that we would have yet more children being raised apart from fathers. Among other things, we know that fathers excel in reducing antisocial behavior and delinquency in boys and sexual activity in girls.

Conversely, the relationships that would also be lacking; Among other things, mothers excel in providing children with emotional security and in reading the physical and emotional cues of infants. Obviously, they also give their daughters unique counsel as they confront the physical, emotional, and social challenges associated with puberty and adolescence."

  1. Statistically marriages thrive under gender specific roles.

"For instance, women are happier when their husband earns the lion’s share of the household income. Likewise, couples are less likely to divorce when the wife concentrates on childrearing and the husband concentrates on breadwinning.

University of Virginia psychologist Mavis Hetherington.

As in so many other areas of life, any social policy decision results in trade offs and consequences, some of them unforeseeable. The more important the area in which the social policy changes are being considered, the more carefully they must be examined before being adopted.

Now please tell me how allowing same sex unions would enhance the greater good of our society.

To date not one convincing argument has been launched by those in favor of Gay marriage. The usual response is “it won’t hurt me who cares?” And that response is by those who are not thinking of the greater good of society and the long term detriment which they will indeed participate in. Perhaps you will be the first to craft a reasonable reply. I await your response.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[His usual avoidance of the question of how homosexual behavior or gay marriage harms anyone]

[/quote]

That was a lot you wrote there, Zeb, and the best I can glean as to your answer to the actual question is that

  1. You think it contributes to family fragmentation in some unspecified way. Well how exactly, since there would be a larger number of stable marriages as a result of legalizing gay marriage?

  2. You think children are better off having mommies and daddies rather than parents. Fact is, there are a lot of children without any parents at all, many more who have only one parent, and still more who only see one or the other of their parents from time to time. I think having two gay parents is demonstrably better than having only one parent at a time, one parent, or no parents at all.

So far, doesn’t sound very harmful to me. Or was there any other actual harm you listed?

And as to onus, the onus to support a proposition and provide its foundation is on whoever states the proposition, of course. If you state that gay marriage is harmful to society, the onus is on you to show just how.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Now please tell me how allowing same sex unions would enhance the greater good of our society.

[/quote]

By creating a larger number of stable families, and providing a greater number of children with parents in stable marriages than is currently the case.

I would like to observe here, somewhat in resonation with CDark I think it was, that when it comes to how children get a raw deal in our society, the fragmentation of the extended family into geographically dispersed nuclear families is very high on the list. This is a recent development, and I think we see some evidence it is detrimental. There is a lot less “safety net” for children in the nuclear arrangement.

Economic and social pressures that induce either or both parents to work outside the home were the coup de grace for parenting as the human race traditionally practiced it.

The discussions about which parent should stay home and which should get the bread fall into a category with rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Our culture would probably be a lot healthier if it were more the custom for younger children especially to be supported in the workplace near their parents.