9th Cir. Tramples 1st Amendment

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

My last two cents about this: Get over yourselves. It’s a damn T-shirt. There’s no way this should have gone as far as it did in the court system. How ridiculous is this behavior? All those years ago, did we freak out and sue everybody because we couldn’t wear a Black Sabbath T-shirt to school? Get a friggin’ life.[/quote]

What ever happened to “sticks and stones may break my bones…”? The little homosexual kids would be a lot better off in life if they learned there are always going be assholes, but there won’t always be over zealous administrators to protect their precious feelings.

I think we’d be better off as a society if these kids left high school with nothing more than a love and understanding of the Constitution and the freedoms it protects.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Ask yourself this: who else but a self-important prick wears a shirt saying “Be Ashamed, Our School Embraced What God Has Condemned,” and on the back, it said “Homosexuality is Shameful.” ON A “GAY SUPPORT” DAY.

…[/quote]

Of course the kid is a prick. So is the asshole that decided the school should have a GAY SUPPORT DAY.

Why not have a BLOWJOB SUPPORT DAY or an ANAL SUPPORT DAY.

That way the straight kids won’t have to feel left out.

Seriously, none of this crap belongs in school.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Seriously, none of this crap belongs in school.[/quote]

Hear, hear. How about in the time it takes to learn and prepare for advocacy for all these pop-culture wars, these kids spent some time doing math, hard sciences, history, and literature?

Just imagine the possibilities if at school, kids spent more time getting an education - it would be revolutionary.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Seriously, none of this crap belongs in school.

Hear, hear. How about in the time it takes to learn and prepare for advocacy for all these pop-culture wars, these kids spent some time doing math, hard sciences, history, and literature?

Just imagine the possibilities if at school, kids spent more time getting an education - it would be revolutionary.[/quote]

I have heard a lot of grumbling lately that No Child Left Behind makes them waste too much time preparing for tests.

Yet amazingly they still have time for this shit.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Let anyone where whatever shirt they want but if they get a UFC style beat down then they can not sue anyone.

With BB’s arguement it is OK to wear a shirt that says:

‘Christianity is a mental disease’

I disagree with that statement but BB wants kids to be able to wear a shirt like that to school.

How about:

‘Jesus Christ is Satan’

I disagree with that shirt but BB thinks it is OK for kids to wear it to school.

nice[/quote]

In general, my suggestion is you take some of the money you make in trading and use it to buy yourself a clue.

Specifically, the problem is not with the school taking a general action limiting the speech of students in general, although that may be lamentable for other reasons. The problem arises when the school chooses to support a political viewpoint while suppressing the opposite viewpoint. This is viewpoint-based discrimination, and it is the heart of what is prohibited to the government under the First Amendment.

If the school is having a problem with messages on shirts, it can ban ALL messages on shirts, and in so doing focus the kids on their studies – in fact, that’s one of the good arguments for school uniforms.

But if they choose to allow messages on shirts, then they can’t ban only those with politically contentious viewpoints.

[quote]zarathus wrote:
I just reread the ruling, and it suggests on page 35 that hate speech against the majority would also be under the perview of the school to prohibit.

I would think that people would be more worried about the power this gives to school administrators to make this decisions, as opposed to a court-imposed and unequal clamp on speech, since the former did happen and the latter did not.

[/quote]

The USSC precedent, Tinker, is what cemented the right of the administrators to make decisions that could cut students’ freedom of expression.

The majority opinion attempts to sidestep the actual issue in their framing of the question – the issue isn’t whether the administrators are empowered to discriminate broadly against all viewpoints that any group might find offensive, the issue is whether the administrators are empowered to discriminate based on viewpoint at all. And the answer is that they are not.

I continue to be dismayed by this type of stuff. My wife started out as a teacher in the Salem, MA school district. It was a problem school - many of the kids couldn’t read, and many more couldn’t read to level. They couldn’t hire enough teachers, and didn’t have resources for books and classroom supplies.

Yet somehow this school managed to devote time to crafting policies to ban Halloween witches (may be offensive to Wiccans) and to have various “diversity celebration” days for whatever politically correct cause celebre caught the principal’s fancy that month.

And then the principal couldn’t figure out why that school was losing students so rapidly to the local charter school founded by one of her ex-teachers. And decided that said teacher was “a traitor” for going out and trying to start a school that would actually focus on, of all things, education in reading, math, science and writing.

[quote]
doogie wrote:
Things like freedom of speech?

Are you serious dense enough to equate yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater with some kid wearing a t-shirt?

lothario1132 wrote:

No. Those are all examples of being an asshole… something which should be discouraged in polite society. [/quote]

lothario,

The problem with your equation is those examples don’t express a viewpoint - they aren’t arguments (even bad ones). Freedom of expression is essentially freedom to express a political viewpoint.

The government can have time, place and manner restrictions that disallow people from expressing ALL political viewpoints in certain circumstances. What it cannot do is restrict certain viewpoints more than others if it chooses to allow viewpoints to be expressed.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Listen, man, I am all about our freedoms and liberties. I would like nothing more than to spread our American ideology to every corner of the Globe. But being an asshole for no good reason isn’t cool. Plain and simple. Use your liberties to do something positive. Tearing down somebody who already has enough problems as it is isn’t being a good American, hell – it’s not being a good friggin’ human being.[/quote]

The worthiness of the viewpoint is immaterial to the government’s ability to restrict it. That’s why we are required to allow the KKK to hold its parades. And, as offensive as certain viewpoints are, it’s much better that they are out in the open and exposed to counterargument than that they be pushed down and forced to fester in the dark - and might even gain adherents because someone decides that if the viewpoint is that dangerous, and thus powerful, there must be something to it.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
What point did that shirt serve?

  1. The statement “I do not agree with our school’s policy of being fair towards gay people, and I am not adult enough to keep it to myself, and air my grievances in an appropriate way.”

  2. The statement “I need to have someone teach me that I am being a little prick, and that my so-called free speech is inapprpopriate… obviously my parents aren’t doing a good enough job of teaching me how to behave myself like a real person.”

  3. All of the above.

My last two cents about this: Get over yourselves. It’s a damn T-shirt. There’s no way this should have gone as far as it did in the court system. How ridiculous is this behavior? All those years ago, did we freak out and sue everybody because we couldn’t wear a Black Sabbath T-shirt to school? Get a friggin’ life.[/quote]

In a precedential system such as ours, it’s important to deny a foothold to any idea that the government can engage in viewpoint-based discrimination.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
In a precedential system such as ours, it’s important to deny a foothold to any idea that the government can engage in viewpoint-based discrimination.
[/quote]

Yes, like arresting people who might be planning to protest the president when he shows up in New York?

Alternately, like escorting people out of the senate building if they have a non Bush approved political message on their shirt?

Oh wait, those are different because the people affected were adults…

P.S. Good to see you Rainjack… I hope you have more time to participate around these parts soon!

[quote]vroom wrote:

Alternately, like escorting people out of the senate building if they have a non Bush approved political message on their shirt?

…[/quote]

As no message t-shirts of any type were allowed the situation is different.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
In a precedential system such as ours, it’s important to deny a foothold to any idea that the government can engage in viewpoint-based discrimination.

vroom wrote:
Yes, like arresting people who might be planning to protest the president when he shows up in New York?

Alternately, like escorting people out of the senate building if they have a non Bush approved political message on their shirt?

Oh wait, those are different because the people affected were adults… [/quote]

No vroom,

You are missing a not-so-subtle point – there is a clear and large difference between someone claiming a reason for why he/she was arrested and/or escorted out as precedential value for a governmental power versus the value of one of the 13 federal appellate courts stating that the government has the power to push aside the First Amendment.

There is also a clear difference when the police in charge – in the case of your second example, the capitol police – admit they made a mistake in applying a standard that was not appropriate. While that is a problem, it is not a problem of precedent, and would not affect the actual approved scope of governmental power.

You’re so sure you have my position pegged that you refuse to understand it…

[quote]
vroom wrote:

P.S. Good to see you Rainjack… I hope you have more time to participate around these parts soon![/quote]

Tax time is over - I’m sure that smackdown time will return soon…

Here’s another good post by my favorite blogospherian, contrasting the Poway decision with a Reinhardt dissenting opinion on free speech in schools:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_04_23-2006_04_29.shtml#1145900557

[Eugene Volokh, April 24, 2006 at 1:42pm] 4 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks

Pro-Taliban Speech Constitutionally Protected, Criticisms of Homosexuality Unprotected:

Here’s an excerpt from Judge Reinhardt’s short dissent in Lavine v. Blaine School Dist. (Jan. 2002)( US Laws, Cases, Codes, and Statutes | FindLaw Caselaw ); Judge Reinhardt was taking the view that a school improperly disciplined a student for writing a poem with a violent theme:

I would add only that at times like those this nation now confronts, it is especially important that the courts remain sensitive to the demands of the First Amendment, a provision that underlies the very existence of our democracy. See Brown v. Hartlage, 456 U.S. 45, 60 (1982) (“[T]he First Amendment [is] the guardian of our democracy.”) First Amendment judicial scrutiny should now be at its height, whether the individual before us is a troubled schoolboy, a right-to-life-activist, an outraged environmentalist, a Taliban sympathizer, or any other person who disapproves of one or more of our nation’s officials or policies for any reason whatsoever.

Except of course, according to Judge Reinhardt’s more recent Harper v. Poway Unified School Dist. ( The Volokh Conspiracy - - ), when the speaker is saying that homosexuality is shameful, or displaying a Confederate flag, or making any other “derogatory and injurious remarks directed at students’ minority status such as race, religion, and sexual orientation” (even if the remarks deal with important public debates, aren’t personally addressed to any particular person, are in response to expressions of contrary views, and haven’t been found to create a substantial risk of disruption).

The First Amendment, you see, doesn’t protect those viewpoints in public high schools. It protects Taliban sympathizers (of course except when they criticize minority religions, or minority sexual orientations). It protects “any other person who disapproves of one or more of our nation’s . . . policies for any reason whatsoever.” But it doesn’t protect condemnation of homosexuality – an important argument for those who want to explain why they disapprove of, say, the nation’s policy on constitutional protection for same-sex sexual relations, or the state’s policy on employment discrimination based on sexual orientation.

It doesn’t protect the Confederate flag, presumably because it’s often seen as an expression of disapproval for the nation’s civil rights policies. (The Confederate flag can also be seen as having other meanings, but I take it that the offensive meaning, at least today, relates to some degree of disapproval of civil rights policies, which is on very rare occasions actual endorsement of slavery and much more commonly a generalized defense of Southern white culture, including its sometimes racist strains.)

And presumably it doesn’t protect speech that criticizes fundamentalist Islam, since that is of course a minority religion. The Taliban sympathizers can speak and criticize Americans and presumably Christians (but not Jews or gays) all they want; but Taliban opponents may not. That’s because in the Ninth Circuit there’s now a Judge-Reinhardt-created viewpoint-based First Amendment exception for speech that minority high school students find is “derogatory and injurious” towards their “race, religion, and sexual orientation.”

I’ll say it again ( The Volokh Conspiracy - - ): Under existing First Amendment precedents, there is a viewpoint-neutral First Amendment exception for disruptive speech in schools. Sometimes speech that’s hostile based on race, religion, or sexual orientation – as well as speech that offends people for a wide variety of other reasons – might indeed lead to substantial disruption, and thus might be restricted.

But this is at least a facially viewpoint-neutral standard that potentially applies to speech on all perspectives, and doesn’t categorically cast out certain student viewpoints from First Amendment protection. While the standard isn’t without its problems, it is at least basically consistent with the First Amendment principle of “equality of status in the field of ideas.” And there are quite plausible arguments that the government as K-12 educator should have still broader authority over speech in public schools (though this too would be a viewpoint-neutral First Amendment exception).

What bothers me is the Ninth Circuit’s newly minted viewpoint-based First Amendment exception, which singles out certain ideas for lack of constitutional protection.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Alternately, like escorting people out of the senate building if they have a non Bush approved political message on their shirt?

[/quote]

People like Beverly Young, the wife of Representative C.W. Bill Young, a Florida Republican who chairs the House Defense Appropriations subcommittee? She showed up for the State of the Union address sporting a T-shirt that read, “Support the Troops–Defending Our Freedom.” She was escorted out.

Do you understand the difference between the Poway case and this?

Oh for fuck sakes. What a bunch of horseshit. Are you taking lessons from Headhunter?

I understand that there are differences, but let’s be honest, the issue here is that the court was involved in what can be spun into a situation involving legislating from the bench.

If rights are a concern, then they are a concern. The fact that you don’t care about other issues of rights being bent makes me think you have something else you are whittling away at.

Doogie, the issue remains, no matter who was removed from the chamber, why should the political affiliation make any difference?

P.S. Being loud, arrogant and opinionated while proclaiming victory does not actully make one a “winner”, no matter how good it might feel.

p. 34

…we reject his argument that the School’s action constituted impermissble viewpoint discrimination. The government is generally prohibited p. 35 from regulating speech “when the specific motivating ideology or the opinion or perspective of the speaker is the rational for the restriction” Rosenberger 515 US at 829…Indeed, the Court in Tinker held that a student may prohibit student speech, even if the consequence is viewpoint discrimination, if the speech violates the rights of other students or is materially disruptive See Tinker 393 at US at 511 (stating school cannot prohibit “expression of one particular opinion” unless it makes a specific showing of consititutionally valid reasons).

read the last parenthetical.

I agree with almost everything you said in the last post, and generally think the governing rulings should hold up viewpoint-neutrality as a goal. But I disagree that the Harper case “categorically” discriminates against certain points of view. It definitely does so “situationally”, because the court ruling is not a law. It gives in this case the school administrator guidelines for using authority, and if you have to remove a T-shirt saying “Blacks, go back to Africa”, there’s no way not to discriminate against a single viewpoint, but you’re not discriminating against a viewpoint categorically. If the ruling had a religious test in it, it would be clearly wrong, categorical, and unconstituional. The guidelien in Harper and Tinker is not what the viewpoint is, but the damaging character of the speech in the special realm of the school. The same line of reasoning could be used to prohibit people such as Rev. Phelps from protesting with “God hates F*gs” signs at military funerals. Its not bc the Rev disagrees with the policy of alleged US encouragement of homosexuality, it is bc he is specifically target individuals, not beliefs, who are specially vulnerable (as students and the bereaved families of fallen soldiers are), and are in a place which the precedent has already ruled is specially governed (as has been ruled about schools and graveyards).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
lothario,

The problem with your equation is those examples don’t express a viewpoint - they aren’t arguments (even bad ones). Freedom of expression is essentially freedom to express a political viewpoint.

The government can have time, place and manner restrictions that disallow people from expressing ALL political viewpoints in certain circumstances. What it cannot do is restrict certain viewpoints more than others if it chooses to allow viewpoints to be expressed.[/quote]

Okay, but remember the example I gave about wearing a “Jesus is dead” T-shirt on Easter as being equally inappropriate? Would it be out of line for a school administrator to make me change it? Honestly, I don’t think that’s restricting my free speech in some harmful way at all.

There comes a point at which first amendment rights need to bow to the concept of propriety, and this is good. Can I say “Uncle Fucker” over the radio? No. It’s unnecessary and inappropriate… but “Fucker” is just a simple word, right? It’s not hurting anybody, is it?

And yet, here we go… censoring me, restricting my free speech. Why?

The same reason that the kid needed to take off the God Hates Fags shirt. It serves no purpose except to disrupt, dismay, and insult. It’s inappropriate for wearing to a school.

[quote]BB wrote:
In a precedential system such as ours, it’s important to deny a foothold to any idea that the government can engage in viewpoint-based discrimination.
[/quote]
But we already do it, all the time. Can we show bare titties on NBC? The discrimination came from the inappropriateness of the shirt, not from the fact that it was a Christian viewpoint. Do we let the KKK march through our schools? No. There is a time and a place, and drawing that distinction does not impinge on our First Amendment rights.

The opinion gave example of what would and would not be censorable. “Young Democrats suck” and “Young Republicans suck” would not be enforceable, bc no one is harassed for those beliefs. The “Jesus is dead” shirt? Probably should be censorable according to both the Tinker standard and the Harper case. If I were a devout Christian and saw such a shirt, it would probably damage my self esteem and disrupt my ability to concentrate. The Harper opinion based much of its judgment on the right to an equal education under the law, so yes, such a shirt would be, for me, under the same category.

Again, I am not the biggest proponent of this development of the case law, but I have to call it for what is, not what I would like it to be. Is the idea in the judgment unfair? It might be, in some cases. It is unfair in the same way that having to be 18 to vote, or 16 to drive is unfair, bc those are arbitrary defintions of adulthood, but they are agreedupon heuristics, and unless someone puts forth a better one, its what we’re stuck with.

Does anybody have a better idea than the Tinker case law? No free speech for school children? Absolute free speech for children? In the Tinker case, it would be arbogated free speech, contigent upon two definiable criteria: whether the speech is disruptive and whether it is injurious. I myself might think that children are tougher than what the Harper and Tinker decisions give them credit for, and that the second prong of the Tinker test should be only a bit closer to only direct threats. However, wishing does not make it so.

The Harper opinion interpreted the Tinker prescedent as it was meant to be interpreted. Even though the mentioned that homosexuals are a specifically susceptible group, did they specifically say that the harmful content in the shirt was the belief about homosexuality? No. The content was in the message about a group represented in the student body; it could have just as easily been Christians, athiests, heterosexuals, or what have you. The opinion specifically diffentiates (yes, on that elusive p. 35) between the content of a belief (in their example, religious belief) and in the attacking posture of a message.

By the way, as a matter of clarification, Harper’s shirt did not say “God Hates f*gs”. It said “Our school endorses what God has opposed” on the front and “Homosexuality is shameful” on the back.

[quote]zarathus wrote:
By the way, as a matter of clarification, Harper’s shirt did not say “God Hates f*gs”. It said “Our school endorses what God has opposed” on the front and “Homosexuality is shameful” on the back.[/quote]

Thank you, I know, I was paraphrasing. If you take what the shirt said and boil it down to a more poetic length, it correctly reads “God hates fags.”