9th Cir. Tramples 1st Amendment

[quote]vroom wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Yeah, I dislike that too – but I also like it when allegations are proved, rather than just assumed true. ANd I also like attributing responsibility to the actual actors…

Yeah, I know, I hate to believe anything that counters my heros as well…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34245-2004Sep19.html

Pincus was one of 1,821 people arrested in police sweeps before and during the Republican convention, the largest number of arrests associated with any American major-party convention. At the Democratic convention in Chicago in 1968, which unlike New York’s was marked by widespread police brutality, cops made fewer than 700 arrests.

http://www.nlgnyc.org/rnc/index.html

The Mass Defense Committee of the NLG-NYC Chapter, which has been providing legal observers and lawyers for activists since 1968, was proud to offer its depth of experience and knowledge to activists organizing events surrounding the Republican National Convention this summer in New York City. We have organized the defense for the majority of more than 1800 people who were arrested. Arrestees have retained lawyers for individual lawsuits and a class action lawsuit has been filed.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1007-06.htm

That’s just a quick Google, don’t get all antsy that some of the sources are going to be ones you don’t wish to receive news from.

Howevever, yes, it is all the fault of the NYPD, there certainly would have been nobody asking for a “clean” environment during the convention itself.[/quote]

I dont buy this pincus’ story and here is why. I was in NYC at the time of the republican convention. In fact, i was staying RIGHT across the street from MSG in the new yorker hotel. No one inadvertenly walked past a police barricade. The place was more secure than the Korean DMZ. The whole entire area was literally a fortress.

I wouldn’t look too much into the fact that many(most?) of the charges were dropped. The point of the arrests was to protect the President of the United States, they pose no threat once he is gone. There is no need to throw them in jail. That one judged issued 500 people to be released because they were held for 50 hours without being charged.

I don’t think any of us can answer for sure, but it seems logical to believe that the city of new york was overwhelmed with maintaining security for the RNC, normal security, and then with processing all those who were arrested. I think this might be the exception rather than the rule. Just because they were not charged does not mean they were not guilty. The judge ordered their release…

Thanks for bringing this case to our attention BB.

This is very scarry stuff:

And it matters not whether it’s a shirt that says something negative about President Bush, or something negative about homosexuals, it should still be protected under the first amendment.

We live in some very dangerous times. On the right we have a President who feels justified in spying on Americans without standard (legal) authorization. On the left we have the politically correct attempting to stifle any and all speech which attacks their sacred cows.

“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.”

William Orville Douglas

vroom,

In your misguided attempt to make a point, you’re missing the key distinction between your obsession and this new case: the distinction between punishing action and punishing words.

You can make all sorts of claims concerning speculation on why those individuals were detained, but the fact of the matter is that they were charged with violating common criminal laws: trespassing, blocking traffic, blocking thoroughfares, not following directions of officers, etc.

In the case at hand, the kid was punished solely for the message on his shirt.

Do you see the difference?

BTW, what do you have against well known civil libertarian Eugene Volokh? And what more do you need than the links to the opinions in the case, which were provided in the original post? Methinks you are full of excuses, but haven’t put in the time considering the issues.

[quote]vroom wrote:

However, perhaps you can wear t-shirts that say “Celebrate Homosexuality” and “Celebrate Heterosexuality”, but not “Homosexuality is Shameful” or “Heterosexuality is Shameful”?[/quote]

You miss the entire point. Having a personal, private preference for the taste of the message - which is what your sentence suggests you have - is a different matter than having the government decide which message is acceptable or not.

And will you look at this? When it comes to civil liberatarianism, Vroom is in like a lion but out like a lamb.

You have spilled more than your share of cyber-ink fretting about ‘civil liberties’ being trampled by elected officials subject to civic audit and accountable to voters via elections. However, when an unelected official - a panel of tenured judges not at all subject to the people via elections or civic audit - truly does monkey with free speech in a patently disparate way, privileging one point of view above another, you give it barely a shrug.

And there is a noticeable absence of civil libertarian/liberal folks weighing in on this decision.

I am curious as to what they think of this decision, setting aside the really legalistic stuff - this pits free speech against the left’s current semi-virtue of tolerance: which one should win?

I’m a civil libertarian. I have a lot of problem with the regulation of “hate speech”. As adults, we should be able (and should have to, I believe) with junk messages in order to not lose our collective bullshit filters. It’s problematic to regulate “hate speech”, because you have to be ina position to say what constitutes “hate speech” and what is vital political discourse.

However, I feel some of you need to go read the opinion itself. The court directly said that in adult jurisdiction, that Harper’s t-shirt would be precisely the kind of freedom protected in the first amendment. The whole dilemma lies in the provisional, limited extension of free expression granted to school children by Tinker.Chandler vs. McMinville School District. You’re free to disagree with the earlier ruling, but this ruling follow directly from it. Tinker ruled for the first time that school children had free speech rights, save for two exceptions: 1. The school being a special place of development, messages that could harm the development of children are not protected; and 2. Messages which significantly disrupt the proceedings of the classroom environment are not protected.

I could be upset about the curtailing of speech, and I would prefer the banning of t-shirts or message t-shirts altogether in class. The prescedent case law is not my favorite ruling. The ruling is an extension of some arguable case law, but its not an example of liberal activism. If you think so, you should really read the damn opinion first, not the prattling of some blogospherian.

Tinker probably is a flawed precedent, but I don’t see how the majority in the 9th Circuit thought it was applying a binding precedent faithfully.

From University of Minnesota law professor Dale Carpenter:

[i]On the first prong of Tinker, I don?t know what the Supreme Court meant by saying that a school could suppress speech to protect the ?rights of others.? It probably meant that schools could prohibit things like face-to-face verbal harassment, libel, and threats, which are already examples of largely unprotected speech. If so, I have no quarrel with it. I?m pretty sure, however, Tinker should not be read to allow schools to banish all methods of expressing a whole viewpoint (e.g., against homosexuality). Eugene is right to take the majority to task for this. In what may be a first, the court?s justification for a speech regulation appears to be more troubling than the government?s own justification for it. There?s actually more evidence of viewpoint discrimination in the majority opinion than there is in the actions of school officials.

On the second prong of Tinker, related to ?substantial disruption,? if a school can?t bar a student from wearing an anti-war black armband in the midst of a heated national controversy over the Vietnam War, it?s hard to see how a school could bar a student from wearing an anti-gay T-shirt in the midst of a heated national culture war over homosexuality. While the school had some vague evidence that there had been past ?altercations? over such messages, and that some students in one class started talking about the T-shirt instead of doing their class work, it?s hard to see how any of this rises to the level of reasonably threatening ?substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities? required before such messages can be banned. Here, too, Kozinski is probably right about the best understanding of Tinker. (The majority didn?t even address the sufficiency of the evidence on this point because it decided the case under the first part, above, dealing with invasion of others? rights.) [/i]

ADDENDUM: BTW, here’s Professor Volokh’s CV: Eugene Volokh - I think that this particular “blogospherian” deserves some respect on Constitutional law issues, and particularly on 1st Amendment issues.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I certainly hope this goes up for USSC review… If not, students living in the 9th Circuit will find they have greatly reduced freedoms under the 1st Amendment.

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_04_16-2006_04_22.shtml#1145577196

[Eugene Volokh, April 20, 2006 at 7:53pm] 11 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks

Sorry, Your Viewpoint Is Excluded from First Amendment Protection:

That’s what the Ninth Circuit holds today, as to student speech in K-12 schools, in a remarkable – and in my view deeply unsound – decision (Harper v. Poway Unified School Dist. Page Not Found ).

Tyler Harper wore an anti-homosexuality T-shirt to school, apparently responding to a pro-gay-rights event put on at the school by the Gay-Straight Alliance at the school. On the front, the T-shirt said, “Be Ashamed, Our School Embraced What God Has Condemned,” and on the back, it said “Homosexuality is Shameful.” The principal insisted that Harper take off the T-shirt. Harper sued, claiming this violated his First Amendment rights.

Harper’s speech is constitutionally unprotected, the Ninth Circuit just ruled today, in an opinion written by Judge Reinhardt and joined by Judge Thomas; Judge Kozinski dissented ( Page Not Found ). According to the majority, “derogatory and injurious remarks directed at students’ minority status such as race, religion, and sexual orientation” – which essentially means expressions of viewpoints that are hostile to certain races, religions, and sexual orientations – are simply unprotected by the First Amendment in K-12 schools. Such speech, Judge Reinhardt said, violates “the rights of other students” by constituting a “verbal assault that may destroy the self-esteem of our most vulnerable teenagers and interfere with their educational development.”

This isn’t limited to, say, threats, or even personalized insults aimed at individual student. Nor is there even a “severe or pervasive” requirement such as that requirement to make speech into “hostile environment harassment” (a theory that poses its own constitutional problems (see: FREEDOM OF SPEECH VS ), but at least doesn’t restrict individual statements).

Rather, any T-shirt that condemns homosexuality is apparently unprotected. So are “display[s of the] Confederate Flag,” and T-shirts that say “All Muslims Are Evil Doers.”

So presumably would be T-shirts that depict some of the Mohammed Cartoons, as the dissent quite plausibly suggests – note that the majority’s confederate flag example makes clear that even ambiguous statements are stripped of protection if they can be seen as insulting based on race, religion, or sexual orientation. So perhaps might be T-shirts that condemn illegal aliens, since those too are directed at “minority status such as race, religion, and sexual orientation” (the “such as” makes clear that race, religion, and sexual orientation needn’t be the only “minority status[es]” that would get special protection from offensive viewpoints).

The majority “reaffirm[s] the importance of preserving student speech about controversial issues generally.” But, according to the constitution, this First Amendment principle somehow omits speech about controversial issues having to do with race, religion, or sexual orientation.

The Gay-Straight Alliance has a constitutional right to argue that homosexuality is quite proper, that same-sex marriages should be recognized, that discrimination based on sexual orientation should be banned, and that antigay bigotry is an abomination. But when the other side of this debate “about controversial issues” wants to express its views, which will often have to rest on the theory that homosexuality is wrong, sorry, apparently it’s not important to preserve student speech that expresses that view.

“[T]here is an equality of status in the field of ideas,” the Supreme Court has said. “Under the First Amendment there is no such thing as a false idea.” “The government must abstain from regulating speech when the specific motivating ideology or the opinion or perspective of the speaker is the rationale for the restriction.” And yet according to Judge Reinhardt, the First Amendment itself discriminates against viewpoints that express hostility to minority races, religions, and sexual orientations.

The Supreme Court has indeed recognized that speech in K-12 public schools must be somewhat more restrictable than speech on the street. Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District (1969) made clear that student speech might be restricted when it’s likely to substantially disrupt the educational process. And sometimes speech that’s hostile based on race, religion, or sexual orientation – as well as speech that offends people for a wide variety of other reasons – might indeed lead to substantial disruption.

But this is at least a facially viewpoint-neutral standard that potentially applies to speech on all perspectives, and doesn’t categorically cast out certain student viewpoints from First Amendment protection. While the standard isn’t without its problems, it is at least basically consistent with the First Amendment principle of “equality of status in the field of ideas.”

Yet the majority specifically refrains from relying on this principle (and Judge Kozinski’s dissent points out that on the facts of this case, there wasn’t enough of a showing that the speech would likely cause disruption). Instead, Judge Reinhardt takes some unelaborated remarks by the Supreme Court about the First Amendment’s not protecting student speech that “intrudes upon . . . the rights of other students,” and fashions from them a constitutionally recognized right to be free from certain kinds of offensive viewpoints (not a right that is itself directly legally enforceable, but a right that the school may choose to assert as a justification for its viewpoint-based speech restrictions).

This is a very bad ruling, I think. It’s a dangerous retreat from our tradition that the First Amendment is viewpoint-neutral. It’s an opening to a First Amendment limited by rights to be free from offensive viewpoints. It’s a tool for suppression of one side of public debates (about same-sex marriage, about Islam, quite likely about illegal immigration, and more) while the other side remains constitutionally protected and even encouraged by the government.

Maybe the government needs more flexibility in controlling student speech than Tinker provides. As the close of Judge Kozinski’s opinion, he suggests that, “Perhaps school authorities should have greater latitude to control student speech than allowed them by Justice Fortas?s Vietnam-era opinion in Tinker. Perhaps Justice Black?s concerns, expressed in his Tinker dissent, should have been given more weight. . . . Perhaps the narrow exceptions of Tinker should be broadened and multiplied. Perhaps Tinker should be overruled.” But even if this is so, whatever rule is adopted should be a rule that the First Amendment applies – or doesn’t apply – to all viewpoints equally, not that views that the court system finds “derogatory and injurious” are specially stripped of constitutional protection.[/quote]

We are indeed heading in the WRONG direction in this country if this ruling stands.

I wonder if wearing “Born-Again Christians are Idiots” would engender the same ruling? I have a hunch this one would be allowed…

Guys, this issue is not about civil liberties, this issue is about legislating from the bench… clue in already.

My issue is that children, in school, already have reduced rights. They can’t drink. They can’t vote. They don’t have free speech. They can’t even drive cars yet.

However, when we further restrict their rights (perhaps, as I don’t trust the spin as of yet) suddenly this is a big deal.

I’m not for the restriction of rights, but unless you guys are going to be excited about the trampling of rights that happened in New York prior to the convention, I don’t see that any of you have any legs to stand on.

When fully grown adults going about their daily business are arrested for no particular reason, then you have a serious rights issue.

Until then, you guys are upset about certain issues only when they coincide with the viewpoints of your party.

Show a bit of consistency, and recognize similar issues, and then I might take you folks more seriously. As it is, I’m busting BB’s chops, and trying to dig a bit and see whether freedom speech is really the issue or if that is just a means to an end here.

BB, what do you think about this case the majority opinion cites as support?

[quote]

The Tenth Circuit
has held that the “display of the Confederate flag might . . . interfere with the rights of other students to be secure and let alone,” even though there was no indication that any student was physically accosted with the flag, aside from its general display. West v. Derby Unified Sch. Dist., 206 F.3d 1358, 1366 (10th Cir. 2000).[/quote]

This doesn’t seem to make sense here, because there really isn’t an opposing flag that could also be banned. If there was a flag that represented to White people what the Confederate flag represesnts to Black people, surely the Tenth Circuit would have insisted they BOTH be banned.

I don’t see how the California court completely ignores the view that extreme homo-repugnants/realigous zealots like Zeb have the same right “to be secure and let alone” without being told they should tolerate that which disgusts them.

To not extend this silly right to not be offended to everyone makes no sense to me.

[quote]Speech that attacks high school students who are members of minority
groups that have historically been oppressed, subjected to verbal and physical abuse, and made to feel inferior, serves to injure and intimidate them, as well as to damage their sense of security and interfere with their opportunity to learn. [/quote]

If the case were about gay students using speech that attacks straight students,are they honestly just flat out saying they would have ruled differently?

[quote]

As long ago as in Brown v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court recognized that “[a] sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn.” 347 U.S. at 494 (internal quotation marks omitted). If a school permitted its students to wear shirts reading, “Negroes: Go Back To Africa,” no one would doubt that the message would be harmful to young black students. [/quote]

What about a shirt that said “God hates Honkies”? Would that not be harmful to white students?

Wow.

[quote]In his declaration in the district court, the school principal justified his
actions on the basis that “any shirt which is worn on campus which speaks in a
derogatory manner towards an individual or group of individuals is not healthy for
young people . . . .” If, by this, the principal meant that all such shirts may be banned under Tinker, we do not agree. T-shirts proclaiming, “Young Republicans
Suck,” or “Young Democrats Suck,” for example, may not be very civil but they
would certainly not be sufficiently damaging to the individual or the educational process to warrant a limitation on the wearer?s First Amendment rights.[/quote]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that only some people have the right not to have their feelings hurt.

[quote]vroom wrote:

However, when we further restrict their rights (perhaps, as I don’t trust the spin as of yet) suddenly this is a big deal.[/quote]

I posted the link to the majority opinion above. Read it in their own words. They are only restricting the rights of students in a majority to speak against students of a minority (which they extend to sexual orientation).

Completely a different issues.

Were only SOME protestors targeted in New York? The articles you posted talk about even innocent bystanders getting rounded up. It doesn’t sound like only some forms of speech were targeted.

Did any court say what happened was Constitutional? What it says is that a judge ordered the police to let most of the protestors go.

[quote]
Until then, you guys are upset about certain issues only when they coincide with the viewpoints of your party.[/quote]

If a court had said it was perfectly fine to round up random people who aren’t breaking any laws, I’d have a problem with it. Can you find a case where that happened in New York?

[quote]
Show a bit of consistency, and recognize similar issues, and then I might take you folks more seriously. As it is, I’m busting BB’s chops, and trying to dig a bit and see whether freedom speech is really the issue or if that is just a means to an end here.[/quote]

When you present a similar issue, this could be an interesting discussion.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Guys, this issue is not about civil liberties, this issue is about legislating from the bench… clue in already.[/quote]

Actually it is about both.

What we are discussing is not whether kids have rights or not - they have some level of free speech rights, it turns out. What is at issue is the contours of what rights they have - and the 9th Circuit just suggested that in the field of speech kids enjoy, there won’t be content-neutrality: one viewpoint will be privileged over another.

We can further restrict their rights or even expand them - that is not what is going on here. The Court did not limit free speech generally - it cherrypicked a particular viewpoint it preferred and restricted that.

Further, this isn’t a matter of ‘spin’, but nice attempt to punt. The decision is that of a federal appeals court, one step below the Supreme Court. Go read the decision - and quit this nonsense of calling it ‘spin’.

If anyone in NY was singled out and detained solely for their viewpoint - solely because of their ideas - then no problem. You haven’t shown that is the case.

Moreover, the situations are different because of context. Cities and public streets are handles very differently than schools due to a number of overriding issues.

The more you try and deflect, the more phony you look. A few days ago, you were revolutionary as hell about your civil rights, now it when it comes to an issue that touches on the sacred ‘tolerance’, you have switched personalities. Well, Sybil, forget what ‘we’ think about the result in terms of our blind allegiance to our party - why aren’t you outraged independent of whether or not our biases are consisent?

(I say that only to prove a point - I don’t think your claim of bias is valid)

This is ridicilous - the Court made it clear as water as to what they think. They made the damn decision. There is no need to ‘dig’ and ‘see’ what is really going on with the situation.

As for ‘consistency’ - freedom of speech is not absolute, and can be subject to context. The only prevailing consistency you need to worry about is the problem of content-neutrality, which is the issue here.

I wasn’t dissing prof Volukh, but people who mistake commentary for a primary source. i guess the phrase “some blogospherean” is not the most polite term, and i apologize to him.

under the ruling, you probably couldn’t get away with wearing a “white people are the devil shirt”. most of the consistency of the ruling derives from the fact of whether a group of people are targets of the speech in question. That may seem unfair (“you can wear a rainbow shirt but not Harper’s shirt”), but you can wear a Christian shirt just as you can wear a rainbow shirt. that’s a significant curtailment, but then i bring up my point that the Tinker prescendent is what set all of this up, and while a whole class of speech is arbogated (“negative speech towards groups”) no one group is disproportionally curtailed, with respect to all the others, by the broad ramifications of this ruling (other than possibly school children as whole).

The Tinker prescendent, not this opinion, is the one that sets forth the quite liberal bounds on what can be considered harmful to a child’s development. I’m not morally interpreting Harper’s actions, but I would judge that a T-shirt saying “Homosexuality is a disgrace” could be damaging just as the prescedents lays out. Obviously the prescedent is not so narrow as to be restricted to menacing and verbal threats, bc those are already not protected by 1st amendment rights, as they are criminal acts. The Tinker opinion obviously had a larger framework in mind when it gave administrators that power.

Also, notice that the school did not arbogate the “Straight-pride day” (even though it wasn’t what was advertised). The administrators were consciously trying to prevent acts of inter-group violence which is exactly what the Tinker prescedent was designed to give administrators the power to head off.

[quote]zarathus wrote:

under the ruling, you probably couldn’t get away with wearing a “white people are the devil shirt”. most of the consistency of the ruling derives from the fact of whether a group of people are targets of the speech in question.
[/quote]

How do you make that interpretation when they specifically say:

[quote]
We consider here only whether schools may prohibit the wearing of T-shirts on high school campuses and in high school classes that flaunt demeaning slogans, phrases or aphorisms relating to a core characteristic of [/quote]particularly vulnerable students [quote]and that may cause them significant injury. [/quote]

and

[quote]

In his declaration in the district court, the school principal justified his actions on the basis that “any shirt which is worn on campus which speaks in a derogatory manner towards an individual or group of individuals is not healthy for young people . . . .” If, by this, the principal meant that all such shirts may be banned under Tinker, we do not agree. T-shirts proclaiming, “Young Republicans
Suck,” or “Young Democrats Suck,” for example, may not be very civil but they
would certainly not be sufficiently damaging to the individual or the educational process to warrant a limitation on the wearer’s First Amendment rights.[/quote]

[quote]doogie wrote:
zarathus wrote:

under the ruling, you probably couldn’t get away with wearing a “white people are the devil shirt”. most of the consistency of the ruling derives from the fact of whether a group of people are targets of the speech in question.

How do you make that interpretation when they specifically say:

We consider here only whether schools may prohibit the wearing of T-shirts on high school campuses and in high school classes that flaunt demeaning slogans, phrases or aphorisms relating to a core characteristic of particularly vulnerable students and that may cause them significant injury.

and

In his declaration in the district court, the school principal justified his actions on the basis that “any shirt which is worn on campus which speaks in a derogatory manner towards an individual or group of individuals is not healthy for young people . . . .” If, by this, the principal meant that all such shirts may be banned under Tinker, we do not agree. T-shirts proclaiming, “Young Republicans
Suck,” or “Young Democrats Suck,” for example, may not be very civil but they
would certainly not be sufficiently damaging to the individual or the educational process to warrant a limitation on the wearer’s First Amendment rights.
[/quote]

i would hope that some judge could use the 14th amendment(equal protection) and shoot this down…

Thunder,

Relax on the nonsense.

Nowhere have I said I’m for this type of thing. However, there is the issue of a school being a place that all students are able to learn.

Without the spin, are the specific issues cited simply examples of the concept being defined or are they an explicit set of defined restrictions. There is a difference.

If the court is saying that attacks on minorities can be curtailed in a school environment, then this is not as bad as it is being made out, because who is or is not a minority is quite flexible over time.

If there is a set list of protected minorities, not just a set of examples, then I expect this would be overturned.

Now, the hypocrisy here is that nobody gives two shits about what happened in New York. Those arrests happened, for no reason other than political purposes, and it violated a civil rights.

So, you obviously care about civil rights when the issue is aligned with your political talking points, but not otherwise.

Again, what I am for is the ability to keep the school environment one that is conducive to learning, for everyone, which probably means that schools should be able to, on a case by case basis, prohibit speech that makes it difficult for a minority to participate in the educational system for some reason.

If this is not what the case is actually about, and it is about codifying a series of specific speech restrictions, then I am flat out against it.

In general, BB quotes Volokh all the time because he likes the spin of the content on that blog… if this is an unspun item, then I’d be surprised and you can find out what my stance would be by reading the above.

Let anyone where whatever shirt they want but if they get a UFC style beat down then they can not sue anyone.

With BB’s arguement it is OK to wear a shirt that says:

‘Christianity is a mental disease’

I disagree with that statement but BB wants kids to be able to wear a shirt like that to school.

How about:

‘Jesus Christ is Satan’

I disagree with that shirt but BB thinks it is OK for kids to wear it to school.

nice

regardless of whether you should be able to wear derogatory t-shirts to school, the fact that this ruling protects the minorities and not the majorities is rather troubling…

[quote]Diomede wrote:
regardless of whether you should be able to wear derogatory t-shirts to school, the fact that this ruling protects the minorities and not the majorities is rather troubling…[/quote]

The majority does not need to be protected…get it?

Give me an example please.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Diomede wrote:
regardless of whether you should be able to wear derogatory t-shirts to school, the fact that this ruling protects the minorities and not the majorities is rather troubling…

The majority does not need to be protected…get it?

Give me an example please.

[/quote]

If “homosexuals are shameful” is banned speech, so should be “christians are shameful.”

A white kid shouldn’t have to endure hateful speech because he is white when a black kid does not. That is a clear violation of equal protection.