90% of Children with Down Syndrome are Aborted

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
861

Alright Tumbles, please disprove this statement - From the moment of CONCEPTION the unborn are in fact whole, distinct, living human beings.

This was posted previously, here and many other places, but I digress. There are four differences between every person in the world: size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency. Size - every person changes in size as they grow and mature. Level of development - as each person grows and matures with age, they develop and are at different levels of development at any given time. Environment - every person in the world is in a different environment. Degree of dependency - as every person matures and interacts, he/she depends upon others differently, throughout every stage of life. These traits describe every single, unique individual person in the world. They also describe the unborn.

[quote]Tumbles wrote:
Um, no children were harmed by Roe v. Wade.

Fetuses aren’t children.

Lifers are always resorting to appeals to emotion. Characterization of the abortion process as murder, fetuses as children, pretending every abortion is a partial-birth late abortion, it’s fucking stupid.

The pigs that we raise in squalor and kill for food have a SIGNIFICANTLY wider range of emotions, consciousness, and intelligence than any fetus. But no, gotta protect the unborn cell clusters.

The rhetoric is ridiculous.[/quote]

862

This was posted previously, here and many other places, but I digress. There are four differences between every person in the world: size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency.

“Size - every person changes in size as they grow and mature. Level of development - as each person grows and matures with age, they develop and are at different levels of development at any given time.”

  • This is not exactly true is it. Size and development are not always co-equal partners in the life cycle, for example a baby born with only a brain stem (anencephaly) may actually grow, but they will never develop…ever…at all…they will never hear, see, crawl, sit-up, eat etc. In fact all a “baby” like that can do is survive attached to multiple medical devices that feed it and monitor it until it finally ceases to “be”. Explain to me how that “baby” is ever truly alive. More thought and emotion emanates from the livestock we eat, more spirit and enjoyment is housed in my Shih-Tzu. If it were my “child” that somehow slipped under the pre-screening radar and was born in this condition I have no doubt that I would love it and try to protect it, but purely for selfish and hopeless reasons. It may grow, but it will not develop or even truly be alive, we need our brains for that. In the case of the unborn with this horrible malady they are no more “alive” at birth than at the moment of conception. If I were to put a newly conceived “baby” (morning after the boot knocking) and a newly conceived kangaroo on an overhead projector I am sure you would have a 50/50 chance of identifying your “child”.

“Environment - every person in the world is in a different environment.”

  • This is true only in the sense that two people cannot occupy the same space at the same time, and also that due to our own conceptualizations of the world around us we all experience our environment differently (I call it the Potato-Potahto Effect). If I have identical twins that share a room and a bunk bed the only real difference in their environment is top or bottom, however they may experience their environment in vastly different ways (feel more or less loved/popular/comfortable etc). This variation obviously becomes more extreme with each step removed from the “twin scenario” but I have no doubt that this does not have as much to do with fetuses as it does with actual people. We could do a checklist comparing the two (womb vs planet earth) but what would be the point, I could tell you that the variation of environments in the womb is much less than the extremes of the earth, I could point out that an environmental variation of 8 degrees fahrenheit for a prolonged period of time would kill the fetus but would only make a one year old either more or less comfortable (depending on the current temperature), I could explain that none of this has anything to do with proving the status of a fetus as living, but what would be the point.

“Degree of dependency - as every person matures and interacts, he/she depends upon others differently, throughout every stage of life. These traits describe every single, unique individual person in the world. They also describe the unborn.”

Since we have already established that the level of dependency in some cases never changes (because those “people” never mature or interact or eat, drink, talk etc.) I guess we can dispense with this statement out of hand.

Since these “traits” don’t seem to be hard and fast rules and since I have to take a shit, I can only assert once again that the pro-life movement is horribly misguided, and that men with penises should probably not tell women with vaginae (the plural, unlike octopuses) what to do with them.

863

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

Since these “traits” don’t seem to be hard and fast rules and since I have to take a shit, I can only assert once again that the pro-life movement is horribly misguided, and that men with penises should probably not tell women with vaginae (the plural, unlike octopuses) what to do with them.[/quote]

Well we all new you were full of shit so no surprise there. But how about the babies that would have been born with vaginas do you think it’s fair to kill them before they have a say in it?

Yeah…you do, you swallow every liberal paradigm that the media elite can shove down your throat.

Hey tell me when is the last time you actually had an original thought?

I’m guess at some point in the 80’s.

864

ZEB,

Give it up, your lack of original thought is clear in everyone of your posts that end with (or begin with) childish name calling. You are a very busy troll, 17,000+ posts!! Epic, if each one takes 3 minutes to compose that is roughly 51000 minutes or 850 hours or 35 days of your life that you could have spent DOING something (having sex, lifting weights, playing with your kids, writing a novel etc.) rather than just repeating whatever your right wing heroes tell you on the radio. Excellent use of time. I on the other hand am retired and have managed on 375 posts in 2 years.

865

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

Give it up, your lack of original thought is clear in everyone of your posts that end with (or begin with) childish name calling.[/quote]

Now you want to steal my analysis of you! I was the one who first accused you of not having an original thought. And now you prove it be actually stealing that line. LOL!! Thank you-- man are you easy.

You are a bigger idiot than I originally suspected. Those posts have been written over an almost 10 year period. That means that I spent (according to you) 35 days writing on topics that I feel strongly about. But as you failed to mention it is over an almost 10 year period. What’s that, 3.5 days per year? Gasp! But you are at least consistent, you put the same clever analysis into my post count as you do your comic liberal ideas. So that answers my question about why you subscribe to your nutty, outdated, proven false time and again, ideas…you’re a dumb guy.

Now would you like to get back to the questions that I threw at you that you are unable to answer or are you going to go full full bore ad hominem? Now don’t get me wrong I don’t blame you for attacking me as you cannot stand on those 20 year old liberal ideas of yours - But I do hope you continue as I have not laughed this hard over anything written in T Nation in quite a while.

866

Yes you did say I lack original thought, and I said the same thing about you, does that mean it isn’t true? You still haven’t ever explained the childish name calling part of your rants.

Additionally it’s actually 10.5 days of “awake” time per year, I assume you sleep and work, at a minimum.

Putting your hands over your head and calling yourself champ doesn’t really mean anything. Your arguments are consistently weak, your points have no merit and when all else fails you resort to name calling, excellent work, a solid “D”. because at least you showed up.

867

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Yes you did say I lack original thought, and I said the same thing about you, does that mean it isn’t true? You still haven’t ever explained the childish name calling part of your rants.[/quote]

LOL! I was telling you in various posts that your arguments are tired and worn out. And that you lacked original thought. And then on this thread you decided to say the same thing to me FOR THE FIRST TIME. You are a pathetic throw back to the worst kind of liberal. You walk around with your nose in the air feeling good about doing harm to those you think you’re helping. As I said originally you are an idiot! Hey…some people are idiots and you happen to be one of them. What else can I say?

That doesn’t change the math - YOU said 35 days of posting. Last time I checked 35 divided by 10 is 3.5. Your math is no better than your take on every single political topic. You just love to be wrong don’t you?

Then stop doing it. You and your wife live a lie bud. But I don’t expect you to ever realize it, most liberals are so far up each others assholes that they are clueless as to how the real world works. I noticed that you never get back to me when I throw you one that seems over your head. For example all the money that we’ve spent on trying to eliminate poverty since the mid 60’s. And what happened over the past 50 years? Poverty increased! No answer for that mister liberal wonder boy? I have an answer that you might consider liberalism doesn’t work and never has!

And yet you cannot answer them. I find that odd don’t you wonder boy?

Now I challenge you a second time to get back to me on that other thread about how wonderful liberalism has been in fighting poverty.

Idiot.

868

[quote]Tumbles wrote:
The pigs that we raise in squalor and kill for food have a SIGNIFICANTLY wider range of emotions, consciousness, and intelligence than any fetus.
[/quote]

Ho-leee sheee-yit!

869

BrianHanson - You never addressed this point so I will make it one more time and then I will show how you never actually did a thing to disprove any of my points:

[i][u] From the moment of CONCEPTION the unborn are in fact whole, distinct, living human beings.[/i][/u]

In regards to your reference to anencephaly, your example to justify abortion happens at the astounding rate of 1 in 68,000 for people in the USA. Let me rephrase that for you in another way, using your own logic: For the other 67,999 otherwise healthy babies, their health justifies them being left alone to survive, the way nature intended.

Do not forget to read the hyper-link about data in the link I will provide here - Healthgrades Health Library - Now this data was simply pulled from a search engine, duckduckgo, and this was the very first site that came up.

The first portion of your first sentence provides all the evidence I need. I will bold the key adjective. “This is true only in the sense that two people cannot occupy the same space at the same time.” When is that single statement not true? What else do I need to use, different logic?

You think differently than myself and many other people who know and understand logic using science, yet that never once makes me stop to readdress my thinking. Science does nothing but confirm my stance on life.

Which traits again are not hard and fast? The example you gave of anencephaly, the one single case that applies to less than even .0000147 percent, is not a hard and fast trait, I refuse to accept what you call rules. Then you state, because men make up no less and no more than half the genetic makeup for each child, I should not type on these boards in regard to the subject of abortion. My testicles provide a barrier to me having an opinion and stance on life? Only after you can use current science with logic, will I stop typing these messages.

It seems that you have a lot of fluff with nothing of any real value to say. Life may be complicated, but the definition of a living person is not: from conception to natural death.

870

This video pertains to the posters in these boards who believe the unborn are NOT alive.

Thank goodness I can still cringe
by Dave Andrusko Tue May 29, 2012

May 29, 2012 (NRLC) - When speaking to the broader publicâ??as opposed to what they tell each otherâ??pro-abortionists will often feign an attitude that they, too, understand that abortion is serious business and not to be trivialized. They donâ??t mean it for a half-second, of course, but for public consumption it helps take the edge off their fanaticism.

I thought of that when a colleague at NRLC passed along a post from the webpage of the DC Abortion Fund. (The DCAF describes itself as an organization â?? that makes grants and no-interest loans to DC area women and girls who cannot afford the full cost of an abortion.â??)

DCAF tells us that they sent one of their activists to last weekâ??s hearing of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the House Judiciary Committee on H.R. 3803, the â??District of Columbia Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act.â?? The bill would ban abortions on pain-capable unborn children, beginning at 20 weeks fertilization age (22 weeks LMP) in the District of Columbia.

The musings on that post were not for the wider publicâ??just fellow pro-abortionistsâ??so they could mischaracterize and misrepresent and cavalierly trivialize to their heartâ??s delight.

But before I tell you what the DCAF â??activistâ?? wrote, let me set the stage for what really happened.

Years ago Anthony Levatino, M.D. performed abortions before he became pro-life. In his testimony last week before the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the House Judiciary Committee, Dr. Levatino went into considerable detail in describing a â??D&Eâ?? abortionâ??an abortion technique that dismembers the baby.

He asked the subcommittee members to â??Imagine, if you can, that you are a pro-choice obstetrician/gynecologist like I once was. Your patient today is 24 weeks pregnant (LMP).â??

He went on:
â??Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp [an instrument for grasping and crushing tissue] grasping anything you can. At twenty-four weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard â?? really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about six inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.â??

As difficult as this is to read, it is twenty times more difficult to watch the video of Dr. Levatinoâ??s oral testimony.

When I saw that Sopher clamp, I swallowed hard. And then, holding the Sopher Clamp as he spoke, Dr. Levatino concluded his testimony with:

[i]â??you know you did it right if you crush down, a white material runs out of the cervix. That was the babyâ??s brains. Then you can pull out skull pieces. Many times a little face will come back and stare back at youâ?¦And if you think that doesnâ??t hurt, if you believe that isnâ??t an agony for the baby, please think again.â??[/i]

I wasnâ??t there but I was told that some of the subcommittee members were visibly moved. Those that werenâ??t were no doubt soul mates of the lady from DCAF.

After completely misrepresenting what Dr. Levatino said about why abortionists shifted to the dismemberment â??D&Eâ?? abortion technique (ah, the beauty of paraphrasingâ??you can attribute whatever you want to the speaker), she offers this oh so revealing passage.

[i]â??Levatino said he performed abortions earlier in his career, and he described the procedure and his eventual dislike of it in explicit detail. Any medical procedure or routine trip to the doctor can sound positively gruesome when described with the proper adjectives (try detailing your last dental cleaning with the help of thesaurus.com). Anti-choice activists like Levatino are most successful when they have us all cringing instead of thinking rationally. But H.R. 3803 doesnâ??t allow for much science and reason.â??[/i]

Ripping off arms and legsâ??and brains spilling out as a babyâ??s head is crushedâ??is just like â??your last dental cleaning.â?? Only an â??anti-choice activistâ?? could not see the similarity.

This ability to be bored and annoyed in the presence of soul-sucking brutality is, I gather, the product of what she sees as a commitment to â??science and reason.â??

[u][i]Thank goodness I can still cringe. I would hate to think what it would say about me if I couldnâ??t.[/u][/i]
favorite line

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/thank-goodness-i-can-still-cringe

871

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
BrianHanson â?? You never addressed this point…[/quote]

Give it up Kneedragger, that’s how B r i a n operates. He throws out a bunch of tired old liberal cliche lines and when that doesn’t work he runs for the hills and all you’re left with are crickets chirping.

872

Kneedragger (and ZEB),

I have never stated my full view on abortion, all you have done is inferred that I am full-on pro-choice because of my statements (neither of which stated my belief), you have not surprisingly, jumped to conclusions.

  1. I do not believe abortion should be used as birth control.
  2. I believe a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy for any reason in the first trimester
  3. After the 1st trimester abortion should only be an option for rape, incest, life of the mother at risk, severe genetic abnormalities/disabilities.

My criticism of the original post is based on the funding cuts and diminished services provided in numerous states across the US. When the childs mom and dad are gone who takes care of a 43 year old with Downs Syndrome, or severe CP or any number of other identifiable issues that may prevent a child from being independent? If the state refuses to take care of them do we just put them on an ice flow like an old eskimo?

873

I realize exactly what he is doing. He will soon disappear with his ignorance into the unknown ; )

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Give it up Kneedragger, that’s how B r i a n operates. He throws out a bunch of tired old liberal cliche lines and when that doesn’t work he runs for the hills and all you’re left with are crickets chirping.

[/quote]

874

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger (and ZEB),

I have never stated my full view on abortion,[/quote]

Oh I don’t know B r i a n…

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Since these “traits” don’t seem to be hard and fast rules and since I have to take a shit, I can only assert once again that the pro-life movement is horribly misguided, and that men with penises should probably not tell women with vaginae (the plural, unlike octopuses) what to do with them.[/quote]

Looks to me that right after you declared the need to evacuate your bowels that you pretty much state that no one should tell a woman what to do. There just are not many other ways to read that one.

But if you want to clarify that go ahead.

[quote]

  1. I do not believe abortion should be used as birth control.[/quote]

No one does but that is exactly what is happening in the vast majority of abortions. And there is nothing that anyone can do about it including you. So there is nothing new here.

Then you are pro choice —Phew glad you cleared that up we were all wondering where you were going to fall on this topic…Oh wait no…we already new it!

That places you just above your hero (the scum) Obama who is pro infanticide. Good for you B r i a n.

Two homosexuals? Oh wait that was your other lefty position. Oh I get it since there is no one to take care of him we should have killed him.

Got it! One more caring liberal.

875

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
This video pertains to the posters in these boards who believe the unborn are NOT alive.

Thank goodness I can still cringe
by Dave Andrusko Tue May 29, 2012

…
[/quote]

Oh my God. Oh my God. My second son, yet unborn, is just past the 24 week point. My wife is already huge with him. He reacts to voices, music, jumps around. He is unmistakably alive. It is not often I get hit as emotionally hard as this video hit me.

Thank God this doctor has not only become pro-life but is providing the world with a view of abortion as it actually is, from someone who cannot be dismissed.

Thanks again, kneedragger.

Damn.

876

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
When the childs mom and dad are gone who takes care of a 43 year old with Downs Syndrome, or severe CP or any number of other identifiable issues that may prevent a child from being independent? If the state refuses to take care of them do we just put them on an ice flow like an old eskimo?[/quote]

Well why not? I mean, we rip the limbs off of children and suck their brains out with a vacuum tube. If we can find a way to justify that, we can find a way to justify anything.

877

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

  1. I do not believe abortion should be used as birth control.
    [/quote]

Why not?

Why the arbitrary cut-off point?

What’s the difference?

[quote]

My criticism of the original post is based on the funding cuts and diminished services provided in numerous states across the US. When the childs mom and dad are gone who takes care of a 43 year old with Downs Syndrome, or severe CP or any number of other identifiable issues that may prevent a child from being independent? If the state refuses to take care of them do we just put them on an ice flow like an old eskimo?[/quote]

Better to strangle them in their cribs and save us “real” people the bother, right?

*EDIT word added for clarity

878

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:

[/quote]

Just monstrous. Absolutely monstrous.

879

Cortes,

Fine if you think it’s okay for birth control I won’t argue the point.

Three months is long enough to make an informed decision, receive input from doctors and at this point the fetus is not viable. It’s not arbitrary at all. If you want more time that is between you and your god I suppose.

The difference is very clearly explained, read it again or have someone read it to you…slowly.

I am not in favor of strangling, but again that is your decision (although the legal system may take umbrage to your god complex). I am just a fan of solving a problem before it becomes a problem, if the government is willing to fund the programs necessary to help support the severely disabled I think it makes the decision to carry a pregnancy to term that much more likely. Don’t refuse to take care of the weakest members of society because you want a lower tax bill, that makes you nothing more than a classless piece of shit.

880

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Cortes,

Fine if you think it’s okay for birth control I won’t argue the point.

Three months is long enough to make an informed decision, receive input from doctors and at this point the fetus is not viable. It’s not arbitrary at all. If you want more time that is between you and your god I suppose.

The difference is very clearly explained, read it again or have someone read it to you…slowly.

I am not in favor of strangling, but again that is your decision (although the legal system may take umbrage to your god complex). I am just a fan of solving a problem before it becomes a problem, if the government is willing to fund the programs necessary to help support the severely disabled I think it makes the decision to carry a pregnancy to term that much more likely. Don’t refuse to take care of the weakest members of society because you want a lower tax bill, that makes you nothing more than a classless piece of shit.[/quote]

Says the guy who is in favor of tearing the limbs off and sucking the brains out of an unborn child. You and your pro choice comrades are the very definition of a piece of shit!