90% of Children with Down Syndrome are Aborted

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
601

We have points that need to be addressed separately and completely.

[quote]orion wrote: I am not disputing that a zygote is human life,[/quote] I will repeat this back to you. The zygote is a HUMAN LIFE. I simply bolded the last two words. [quote] what I am disputing that it comes even close to what we would call a living human being, [/quote] Here you are mistaken. I will use the acronym of SLED - Size, Level of development, Environment, Degree of dependency - to define the differences between the unborn and the human beings you see walking this earth today. Those EXACT SAME TRAITS define the differences between, say you and I. [quote] to it lacks all the basic components of being one. [/quote] Refuted, right above. ^

[quote] It might develop them, given time, though in most cases it does not and simply dies. [/quote] Again, you are making claims with nothing to back the statements.

602

My apologies, not sure how I missed this post. Again, please accept my apologies.

Because we are having a ‘discussion’ about the definition of human life. Please prove to me the human sperm is alive, like a person is alive. Either one walking the world or even the embryo you claim is impossible to define.

Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i.e., living organisms) from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.

Source for above definition ^ Koshland Jr, Daniel E. (March 22, 2002). “The Seven Pillars of Life”. Science 295 (5563): 2215â??2216. doi:10.1126/science.1068489. PMID 11910092. Retrieved 2009-05-25

[quote]orion wrote:
According to whom?

I am sure that I can find a definition of “alive” that fits.

edit: and I would be very careful with that, because if you answer that sperm cannot survive on their own you leave a gap open I could drive a truck through, with room to spare. [/quote]

603


.

604

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Science proves life starts at the moment of conception.

There is no little boxes, in that regard.

[quote]orion wrote:
I dont know.

Gradual processes are notoriously difficult to put into neat little boxes, the best you can do is be aware that your definitions are more of an heuristic nature. [/quote]
[/quote]

Science proves that life started billions of years ago and has persisted in an unbroken chain since.

605

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Do human beings have souls?[/quote]

Huh? I’m keeping this secular for a wider audience.
[/quote]

Just stumbled over a few questions that would be troubling if human beings have souls the very moment that a zygote forms.

Not to mention that I would like to know whether all totipotent cells have them, or just the ones at a very specific place.

606

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Depending on your definition practically all the cells in my body are alive.

What if we find totipotent cells in the adult human body?

Some cells seem to come awfully close.[/quote]

I’m sorry Orion, but the science is settled. Has been settled. The zygote is an INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM already in it’s OWN life cycle. With humans, it’s a human life cycle. It’s not your somatic cell, like a hepatocyte or an erythrocyte. It’s an individual organism. The same organism, start to finish.
[/quote]

And yet, it does not fit the most basic requirements of a living human being.

Human live yes, human being, no.

607

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Science proves life starts at the moment of conception.

There is no little boxes, in that regard.

[quote]orion wrote:
I dont know.

Gradual processes are notoriously difficult to put into neat little boxes, the best you can do is be aware that your definitions are more of an heuristic nature. [/quote]
[/quote]

As I said, sperm are alive.

Blood cells are too, they have a metabolism, they react to outside stimuli, they obviously must be maintaining some sort of homeostasis…

608

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Depending on your definition practically all the cells in my body are alive.

What if we find totipotent cells in the adult human body?

Some cells seem to come awfully close.[/quote]

I’m sorry Orion, but the science is settled. Has been settled. The zygote is an INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM already in it’s OWN life cycle. With humans, it’s a human life cycle. It’s not your somatic cell, like a hepatocyte or an erythrocyte. It’s an individual organism. The same organism, start to finish.
[/quote]

Ah, neat little boxes, again.

You are genetically hardwired to see mammals as whole entities.

If you were a virus you would see them as a lump of (mostly] cooperating cells. Well, you would not, because you would be as dumb as a rock, but if you could, you would.

Neither point of view is inherently right.

609

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
We have points that need to be addressed separately and completely.

[quote]orion wrote: I am not disputing that a zygote is human life,[/quote] I will repeat this back to you. The zygote is a HUMAN LIFE. I simply bolded the last two words. [quote] what I am disputing that it comes even close to what we would call a living human being, [/quote] Here you are mistaken. I will use the acronym of SLED - Size, Level of development, Environment, Degree of dependency - to define the differences between the unborn and the human beings you see walking this earth today. Those EXACT SAME TRAITS define the differences between, say you and I. [quote] to it lacks all the basic components of being one. [/quote] Refuted, right above. ^

[quote] It might develop them, given time, though in most cases it does not and simply dies. [/quote] Again, you are making claims with nothing to back the statements.
[/quote]

And again, human life=human being. Since scientific definitions seem to matter to you, there are two scientific standards. Zygotes live up to (hah!) some of the ones defining the first one, they do not meet the requirement for the latter. Obviously not all human live is a human being.

Then, most pregnancies fail. That is a well documented and dare I say it, scientific, fact.

Either the zygote does not implant or is rejected and yet even the most staunch pro lifers do not mourn the senseless deaths of hundreds of millions of “babies” each year.

610

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Again, you are making claims with nothing to back the statements.
[/quote]

More than half your “arguments” are made with no foundation. Most of the rest are either copy pasted from biased websites or made appealing to the authority of your previous statements (which have no foundation).

611

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Depending on your definition practically all the cells in my body are alive.

What if we find totipotent cells in the adult human body?

Some cells seem to come awfully close.[/quote]

I’m sorry Orion, but the science is settled. Has been settled. The zygote is an INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM already in it’s OWN life cycle. With humans, it’s a human life cycle. It’s not your somatic cell, like a hepatocyte or an erythrocyte. It’s an individual organism. The same organism, start to finish.
[/quote]

And yet, it does not fit the most basic requirements of a living human being.

Human live yes, human being, no.

[/quote]

Really, and what are the natural requirements of a human being?

612

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Science proves life starts at the moment of conception.

There is no little boxes, in that regard.

[quote]orion wrote:
I dont know.

Gradual processes are notoriously difficult to put into neat little boxes, the best you can do is be aware that your definitions are more of an heuristic nature. [/quote]
[/quote]

As I said, sperm are alive.

Blood cells are too, they have a metabolism, they react to outside stimuli, they obviously must be maintaining some sort of homeostasis…[/quote]

Sperm is a gamete, a haploid cell. Blood cells are somatic cells of an individual human organism. Neither are individual human organisms on their own life cycles. You are not a different stage of an individual blood cell’s life cycle. You are that organism in the womb, at a different stage on the same life cycle.

613

Stop being a coward.

614

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
My apologies, not sure how I missed this post. Again, please accept my apologies.

Because we are having a ‘discussion’ about the definition of human life. Please prove to me the human sperm is alive, like a person is alive. Either one walking the world or even the embryo you claim is impossible to define.

Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i.e., living organisms) from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.

Source for above definition ^ Koshland Jr, Daniel E. (March 22, 2002). “The Seven Pillars of Life”. Science 295 (5563): 2215Ã?¢??2216. doi:10.1126/science.1068489. PMID 11910092. Retrieved 2009-05-25

[quote]orion wrote:
According to whom?

I am sure that I can find a definition of “alive” that fits.

edit: and I would be very careful with that, because if you answer that sperm cannot survive on their own you leave a gap open I could drive a truck through, with room to spare. [/quote]
[/quote]

Why do I have to prove anything?

Prove to me that a “zygote is alive like a human being is alive.” You are making the claim, you back it up.

I say that human sperm is alive and that it is appealing that so much of it is shot out into an uncaring universe. If one equates human life with human being that is.

edit: Did I really write appealing? Should have been appalling. Anyhow I will let it stand as it is… O_O

615

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Depending on your definition practically all the cells in my body are alive.

What if we find totipotent cells in the adult human body?

Some cells seem to come awfully close.[/quote]

I’m sorry Orion, but the science is settled. Has been settled. The zygote is an INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM already in it’s OWN life cycle. With humans, it’s a human life cycle. It’s not your somatic cell, like a hepatocyte or an erythrocyte. It’s an individual organism. The same organism, start to finish.
[/quote]

And yet, it does not fit the most basic requirements of a living human being.

Human live yes, human being, no.

[/quote]

Really, and what are the natural requirements of a human being?[/quote]

Its on the last page somewhere.

We may not know when someone is alive, but we do know when a human being is dead:

Either when the circulatory and respiratory system or the brain, including the brain-stem is gone beyond repair.

Then you are dead, dead, dead, as long as they are working you are a living and , um, breathing, human being.

A zygote has neither one of those, let alone in working condition.

616

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Science proves life starts at the moment of conception.

There is no little boxes, in that regard.

[quote]orion wrote:
I dont know.

Gradual processes are notoriously difficult to put into neat little boxes, the best you can do is be aware that your definitions are more of an heuristic nature. [/quote]
[/quote]

As I said, sperm are alive.

Blood cells are too, they have a metabolism, they react to outside stimuli, they obviously must be maintaining some sort of homeostasis…[/quote]

Sperm is a gamete, a haploid cell. Blood cells are somatic cells of an individual human organism. Neither are individual human organisms on their own life cycles. You are not a different stage of an individual blood cell’s life cycle. You are that organism in the womb, at a different stage on the same life cycle.
[/quote]

Drones are haploid- are they not alive?

Well you can define blood cells as part of an organism, I say they are very specialized creatures living in a very unique environment and they do have a complex symbiotic relationships with other cells in my body.

Also, neither you, or me are the same organism that lived in that womb, every last one of those cells is long dead.

617

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Stop being a coward.[/quote]

Stop rationalizing your unfounded gut instincts.

618

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A zygote is already an individual life. Being that a human zygote, and embryo, are already moving through an individual human life cycle (fact) it is an individual human life. It is innocent, endowed with the capability to develop it’s features and faculties, barring disease or premeditated murder, and in the vast majority of time, naturally present in the womb due to the actions of others.

Abortion = Takes an innocent, properly existing in place, individual human life. Knock off the cowardice, own it, and argue it for what it is.[/quote]

Depending on your definition practically all the cells in my body are alive.

What if we find totipotent cells in the adult human body?

Some cells seem to come awfully close.[/quote]

I’m sorry Orion, but the science is settled. Has been settled. The zygote is an INDIVIDUAL ORGANISM already in it’s OWN life cycle. With humans, it’s a human life cycle. It’s not your somatic cell, like a hepatocyte or an erythrocyte. It’s an individual organism. The same organism, start to finish.
[/quote]

And yet, it does not fit the most basic requirements of a living human being.

Human live yes, human being, no.

[/quote]

Really, and what are the natural requirements of a human being?[/quote]

Its on the last page somewhere.

We may not know when someone is alive, but we do know when a human being is dead:

Either when the circulatory and respiratory system or the brain, including the brain-stem is gone beyond repair.

Then you are dead, dead, dead, as long as they are working you are a living and , um, breathing, human being.

A zygote has neither one of those, let alone in working condition.[/quote]

A zygote has it’s capacities intact.

619

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Science proves life starts at the moment of conception.

There is no little boxes, in that regard.

[quote]orion wrote:
I dont know.

Gradual processes are notoriously difficult to put into neat little boxes, the best you can do is be aware that your definitions are more of an heuristic nature. [/quote]
[/quote]

As I said, sperm are alive.

Blood cells are too, they have a metabolism, they react to outside stimuli, they obviously must be maintaining some sort of homeostasis…[/quote]

Sperm is a gamete, a haploid cell. Blood cells are somatic cells of an individual human organism. Neither are individual human organisms on their own life cycles. You are not a different stage of an individual blood cell’s life cycle. You are that organism in the womb, at a different stage on the same life cycle.
[/quote]

Drones are haploid- are they not alive?

Well you can define blood cells as part of an organism, I say they are very specialized creatures living in a very unique environment and they do have a complex symbiotic relationships with other cells in my body.

Also, neither you, or me are the same organism that lived in that womb, every last one of those cells is long dead.
[/quote]

Go hang out with the young earthers. Pro-choice ‘science’ is just as wanting. You are the same organism. The human life cycle isn’t a story of different organisms replacing each other at stages. So, take your medieval-like mysticism down the road. Drones are alive, that wasn’t the point. The point was that sperm, haploid gametes, are immediately recognizable as not being individual human organisms. They, along with your somatic cells, are not individual human lives. The zygote is already an individual human moving through it’s life cycle. This is settled.

620

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Stop being a coward.[/quote]

Stop rationalizing your unfounded gut instincts.[/quote]

I’ve not a said single thing that isn’t in the Bio and A&P textbooks sitting next to me.