Symptoms?
Some good days, some bad days. Mainly fighting depression/mood lately. Overall more energy but just some days its like I crash when some shit adds up. Sex drive going up and getting morning wood a few times…which never happened before to recent memory.
Pretty sure once ESTRADIOL gets down I’ll be feeling good, least I hope. Taking more Vitamin D should help also for winter months.
Still having some problems with temperature but hopefully that goes away when testosterone/Estradiol gets settled in right ratios. Might tackle back at thyroid later if it doesn’t help.
After reading up a ton on DHT I’m not worried about it being high. Seems like as long at Estradiol AND DHT are NOT both high, its not too big a deal…so right now isn’t good, but with estradiol down should be fine with new meds.
I agree…it looks like you are on the right track…Getting your estradiol down should be a big help
Got new blood work in. DHT still high, no big deal there. ESTRADIOL still high, big deal there.
Doubling dosage of arimedex to .50mg weekly. I still don’t think this will be high enough but I’ll see in 3 months. Also doubling thyroid medication to 50mcg per day. This is more due to my coldness symptoms and less on blood work…although TSH still is above 2. Doctor offered T3 but said it would be a compound and insurance wouldn’t cover. Going try seeing how T3 is changed with the extra T4. I’ll pay for it if needed but insurance coverage makes me a more happy person.
Vitamin D levels are up and mood is better. Overall feeling better but still need get ESTRADOIL in check and these coldness symptoms gone…winter makes it worse.
Past Protocol:
50MG Test Monday/Thursday(100 total mg) Sub-Q
250iu HCG Monday/Thursday
320mg of Saw Palmetto per day
25mcg Synthroid per day
50mg DHEA per day.
Arimidex compound twice per week 0.125mg
Vitamin D 11,000iu
New Protocol:
50MG Test Monday/Thursday(100 total mg) Sub-Q
250iu HCG Monday/Thursday
320mg of Saw Palmetto per day
50mcg Synthroid per day
50mg DHEA per day.
Arimidex compound twice per week 0.250mg
Vitamin D 11,000iu
HEMOGLOBIN 170 (135-175) g/L
HEMATOCRIT 0.49 (0.40-0.50) L/L
WHITE BLOOD CELL COUNT 5.5 (4.0-11.0) x E9/L
RED BLOOD CELL COUNT 5.51 (4.50-6.00) x E12/L
MCV 88.6 (80.0-100.0) fL
MCH 30.9 (27.5-33.0) pg
MCHC 348 (305-360) g/L
RDW 12.4 (11.5-14.5) %
PLATELET COUNT 189 (150-400) x E9/L
ABSOLUTE: NEUTS 3.2 (2.0-7.5) x E9/L
(A) LYMPH 1.2 (1.0-3.5) x E9/L
(A) MONO 0.7 (0.2-1.0) x E9/L
(A) EOS 0.4 (0.0-0.5) x E9/L
(A) BASO 0.0 (0.0-0.2) xE9/L
GLUCOSE-FASTING 4.2 (3.6-6.0) mmol/L
CREATININE 92 (62-115) umol/L
eGFR 88
SODIUM 140 (135-147) mmol/L
POTASSIUM 4.4 (3.5-5.5) mmol/L
CHLORIDE 105 (100-110) mmol/L
ALANINE TRANSAMINASE (ALT) 42 (12-49) U/L
THYROTROPIN (SENSITIVE TSH) 2.19 (0.35-5.00) mIU/L
FREE TRIIODOTHYRONINE(ft3) 4.7 (3.5-6.5) pmol/L
FREE THYROXINE(ft4) 14 (9-23) pmol/L
TESTOSTERONE FREE 51.9 (31.0-94.0) PMOL/L
DHEA-S 9.0(7.6-17.4) umol/L Flagged Low
ESTRADIOL-17 BETA 229 (<150) pmol/L Flagged High
TESTOSTERONE 24.4 (8.4-28.7) nmol/L
Cortisol 388
25-HYDROXY VITAMIN D 218 (75-250) nmol/L
DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE 6127 (860-3406) pmol/L Flagged High
dude you gotta get that e2 under control, that could effectively be cancelling out 90% of the benefits from higher T levels
Well got new bloodwork in just checking Free Test and Estrogens.
ESTRADIOL-17 BETA 161 (<150) pmol/L Flagged High
TESTOSTERONE FREE 33.8 (31.0-94.0) PMOL/L
Bumping Adex to .50mg twice per week now, double what it was. Estrogens are coming down which is nice, didn’t really expect free test to come down but should go back up bit with double AI dosage.
I’ve actually been feeling better overall, surprised at lower Free total. Guess getting that getting Estradiol down to 160 from 229 is what is contributing to it. Still high…but this should get it down more. Pretty sure doctor said he wants it around 110-120.
You were attempting HCG monotherapy when you first started HCG right?
As far as I can tell, your dose was way too low. 250 IU every other day or 750 twice per week would be more like it.
Yeah I tried mono at 250iu 2x per week. Even if I went 750 wouldn’t of worked. My test numbers, FSH, LH all didn’t even budge and stayed rock bottom. 250iu more per week wouldn’t of made that big a difference.
[quote]AJBurns wrote:
Yeah I tried mono at 250iu 2x per week. Even if I went 750 wouldn’t of worked. My test numbers, FSH, LH all didn’t even budge and stayed rock bottom. 250iu more per week wouldn’t of made that big a difference.[/quote]
You may know more about this than me, but I would rather consider the fact that FSH and LH not budging were because the dose was too low.
I`m not talking about only 250 IU more per week. With 2X750 IU that is 1500 IU per week and three times what you took.
250 IU very other day is 1000 IU per week which is twice what you took.
If you look at the medical literature, patients are put on far higher doses per week. The brand I`m hoping to get a prescription for recommends 1000-2000 IU two to three times per week.
Not that I think it`s necessary to go that high, but based on my current research I think there is a possibility that your results would have been different with higher doses.
Just my two cents.
250iu 2x per week is a very frequently used restart protocol. I wouldn’t of done anything if I thought it didn’t make sense. Many of the higher restart protocols are outdated as with HCG more is not better. Also all HCG recommended dosages on bottles are in the dosage instructions are for women. The drug usage for men is off the books so to speak. I think 10,000iu would of lasted me a week if I did what the instructions said.
HCG didn’t do shit but raise estrogen levels. That would of still been the problem if I used more. There seems to be not alot of people who actually can have a successful restart…but it’s always worth the try first.
But it doesn’t matter anyway since I’m on test replacement now, not a hcg restart.
So I’d rather not discuss the what could of been in this thread.Feel free to make a new thread post if you want to debate HCG protocols. Or even keep it to a PM system. Thanks.
I`m sorry that I tried to help, it will not happen again.
updates?
[quote]AJBurns wrote:
250iu 2x per week is a very frequently used restart protocol. I wouldn’t of done anything if I thought it didn’t make sense. Many of the higher restart protocols are outdated as with HCG more is not better. Also all HCG recommended dosages on bottles are in the dosage instructions are for women. The drug usage for men is off the books so to speak. I think 10,000iu would of lasted me a week if I did what the instructions said.
HCG didn’t do shit but raise estrogen levels. That would of still been the problem if I used more. There seems to be not alot of people who actually can have a successful restart…but it’s always worth the try first.
But it doesn’t matter anyway since I’m on test replacement now, not a hcg restart.
So I’d rather not discuss the what could of been in this thread.Feel free to make a new thread post if you want to debate HCG protocols. Or even keep it to a PM system. Thanks.[/quote]
I know this is from April but wanted to comment. Why would you expect LH/FSH to go up on HCG monotherapy? It stimulateds the Leydig cells of the testes directly to produce testosterone which if anything would just end up feeding back to the hypothalamus as increased E2. SERMs are what would be needed to produce more LH/FSH.
I think monotherapy HCG is most valuable in diagnosis - i.e. no response with elevated FSH/LH = primary. Can also be useful in borderline secondary just to give a little bump but most restarts I’ve seen combine a SERM (to increase LH/FSH) and HCG (to keep testes functioning).
I could be missing something but that’s my take…
HCG stimulates the leydig cells but that in turn raises LH numbers. The serm really does the same thing, just a different route. HMG would be needed to directly go for FSH numbers. But FSH seems to raise also with AI’s and gets higher with higher test levels. Gets kind of complicated for me heh.
Update on treatment:
Moved to doing sub-q 3 times per week, had to back down adex dosages since it lowered my estrogens levels going 3 times per week. Free T is still not great so might need to go higher, was only at 44.6 in a 31-94 range with 120mg test per week. Added some thyroid T3 meds to go along with T4 meds. Have a big bloodwork panel coming up early October so I’ll post the entire results. If test results are low on testosterone free again I might move to IM shots from sub-q, since insulin needles I’m using are only 50cc. Might go to 2 IM shots per week instead if I get to 200mg per week.
50MG Test Monday/Wed/Fri (150 total mg) Sub-Q
250iu HCG Monday/Thursday
320mg of Saw Palmetto per day
50mcg Synthroid per day
4mcg T3 Meds per day
50mg DHEA per day.
Arimidex compound twice per week 0.250mg
Vitamin D 11,000iu
[quote]AJBurns wrote:
HCG stimulates the leydig cells but that in turn raises LH numbers. The serm really does the same thing, just a different route. HMG would be needed to directly go for FSH numbers. But FSH seems to raise also with AI’s and gets higher with higher test levels. Gets kind of complicated for me heh. [/quote]
I’m only pushing this point because this was a major flaw in interpreting your results. HCG absolutely SUPPRESSES endogenous LH secretion. Like everything else it works on a negative feedback loop. When HCG is high (it’s an LH analog) natural LH production will be low. Although hardly necessary as this concept is nothing new I do like to always provide proof. Please see the first sentence under conclusions:
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2009 Sep;71(3):417-28. Epub 2008 Dec 18.
Effects of recombinant human LH and hCG on serum and urine LH and androgens in men.
Handelsman DJ, Goebel C, Idan A, Jimenez M, Trout G, Kazlauskas R.
Source
Andrology Department, Concord Hospital, ANZAC Research Institute, University of Sydney, Sydney NSW, Australia. djh@anzac.edu.au
Abstract
CONTEXT:
The administration of gonadotrophins is prohibited in sport but the effect in men of recently available recombinant hCG and LH on serum and urine concentrations of gonadotrophins and androgens has not been systematically evaluated in the antidoping context.
OBJECTIVE:
To determine the time-course of recombinant LH (rhLH) and hCG (rhCG) on blood and urine hormone profiles in men to develop effective tests to detect rhLH and rhCG doping.
DESIGN:
Two randomized controlled studies with a 2 x 2 factorial design.
SETTING:
Academic research centre.
PARTICIPANTS:
Healthy male volunteers aged 18-45 years.
INTERVENTIONS:
In the rhLH study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhLH (75 IU or 225 IU), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone or no suppression. In the rhCG study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhCG (250 or 750 microg), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone decanoate (ND) or no suppression. ND suppression comprised a single dose of 200 mg ND 3 days prior to, and in the rhCG study an additional dose 1 day after gonadotrophin injection.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
Serum and urine hCG, LH, T, T : LH ratio, urine epitestosterone (E) and urine T : E ratio.
RESULTS:
Neither rhLH dose produced a significant increase in serum or urine LH or T or in the T : E or T : LH ratios regardless of ND-induced suppression of endogenous LH and T. Nor did an even higher dose (750 IU) in three healthy men with unsuppressed gonadal axis. These findings were confirmed with two different commercial LH immunoassays together with adjustment for any influence of urine sediment and dilution. Both rhCG doses produced a steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine hCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH, regardless of hCG dose. Serum but not urine T was lowered by ND suppression. The T : LH ratio showed a progressive increase unrelated to rhCG dose or ND suppression, whereas both rhCG and ND suppression minimally increased T : E ratio.
CONCLUSIONS:
Both rhCG doses produce a striking increase in serum hCG and T with suppression of serum LH but, at single doses up to 750 IU, rhLH has no influence on serum or urine LH or T. Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses. Use of LH immunoassays optimized for serum to detect rhLH doping by urine LH measurement requires more standardization and validation and, at present, is unreliable. The T : LH ratio is, however, a useful screening test for hCG doping although its utility requires further evaluation.
Just looked through all your posts and I’m confused. I didn’t see a single LH or FSH that wasn’t really low. This combined with low T means you have secondary hypogonadism.
In all of your “restart” protocols I never saw a SERM like Clomid. All HCG will do is negatively feedback and further suppress your LH production - and that is exactly what it did. You interpreted this as HCG didn’t work BUT that wasn’t a correct interpretation. If you wanted to do a “restart” THE MOST IMPORTANT medication for you would’ve been the SERM and it’s the one you didn’t use. HCG on it’s own in your case just made things worse.
Simply put your entire axis is shut down and getting the axis up and running starts at the beginning in the hypothalamus/pituitary with a SERM. SERM is given to stimulate endogenous LH production. Without a SERM there’s no amount of AI that is going to disinhibit E2 feedback enough to restart LH production.
HCG is given to both prime the testes to LH and make sure they are not inactive and in good working order. It does the SAME thing as LH and is usually used for a period of time before the SERM so they are running well before trying to restart LH production. HCG given as monotherapy in secondary hypogonadism will just cause an increase in E2 which will negatively feedback at the hypothalamus and keep endogenous LH down. It will do nothing to stimulate LH production. ANy increased T you get will be solely from the HCG and when you stop taking it everything will go back down again.
The AI can help remove the negative feedback from E2 but it’s almost never enough by itself to restart the hypothalamus/pituitary.
Of all of these the one that is absolutely needed is the SERM and the HCG and AI are just auxiliary meds used to optimize the restart but they are not absolutely required.
Now admittedly your posts are longwinded so there’s a chance I missed something and if I did I apologize but that’s my opinion.
I couldn’t get clomid since no doctor wanted to use it for a restart. HCG was only option I was given really before TRT. I knew I was secondary and HCG is a known restart method for secondary hypogonadism.
Doesn’t really matter now anyway since that is the past and I’d like to keep thread on current situation. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter though.
I understand…
Updates?
Any Updates