22 with No T

Pharma TRT
41

[quote]Ace39 wrote:
Have heard that absorption isn’t good with testogel and haven’t heard of anyone achieving higher levels of T whilst on testogel have you? Anything I’ve seen seems to show it gets people just in range but at the lower end.
Another thing I’m not keen on with Testogel is the lack of an AI or HCG alongside.

I guess private isn’t always the answer then.
Will be interesting how Testogel works out for you.

When you say none would talk about HCG or Clomid do you mean at all or alongside Test?
I actually tried Clomid first which boosted T for a bit but I felt terrible on it so then was put on 2000iu HCG 2x per week and felt better for abit then ended up feeling the worst I have in my life when my E2 went up so lowered the dose to KSmans recommendation.
Feel better as far as mood goes but still lack of libido, energy, focus and can’t seem to build muscle :confused: [/quote]

Yeh I’m not too concerned with getting super high T levels as that presents other issues… Blast some other stuff if you want that imo.

As in talk about it atall, with any TRT protocol… Guess the research is still lacking and it’s fairly underground stuff?

I think most endos will start on testogel and if that isn’t suffice move to injection, I like the daily test in theory tho as it matches your natural daily output…

I think you can help it absorb with a few techniques too… But Havnt looked into that yet as it looks as though this sperm storage is going to take some time… Need HIV test done and a referral!

42

I agree. Not looking for super high levels but would be nice to at least achieve average levels of a healthy male of our age which seems to be over 20nmol.

HCG alongside Test seems to be unheard of in common Nhs practice.
HCG monotherapy is obviously being used but the knowledge seems to be very limited.

Am still on the fence with trying testogel.

Does anyone know if using HCG alongside testogel would negate the need to freeze sperm?

Shadow - how long have you been trying to freeze sperm?

43

[quote]Ace39 wrote:
I agree. Not looking for super high levels but would be nice to at least achieve average levels of a healthy male of our age which seems to be over 20nmol.

HCG alongside Test seems to be unheard of in common Nhs practice.
HCG monotherapy is obviously being used but the knowledge seems to be very limited.

Am still on the fence with trying testogel.

Does anyone know if using HCG alongside testogel would negate the need to freeze sperm?

Shadow - how long have you been trying to freeze sperm? [/quote]

Well I can see it taking a month or two… Iv got my testogel sat in the cupboard but this Is the process

HIV + hepatitis blood test (1 week waiting time)
1-2 weeks to get results
Then need referral for storage and appointment (not at this stage yet but guessing 2 weeks again for appointment
Have consultation appointment
Storage probs week after or so depending how busy lab is…

So I can see it adding month until I can start the testogel…

Half tempted to start testogel for 2 months prescription to see results, then do pct, store sperm and go back on of first two months were successful…

44

Bit of an update after a long absence from the forum.

I’ve now been on prescribed TRT and Levothyroxine for just over a year. Throughout this time, I’ve seen and felt a huge improvement in general well being, mood, improvement in the gym and seem to suffer less from sickness.
One area that has improved but not to the point expected or wanted is my libido.

I’m currently taking one vial of Sustanon 250 divided into 2 injections per week along with 100 micrograms of Levothyroxine for my thyroid.
I did attempt to resolve this using KSman’s recommended iodine protocol but issues persisted.

A recent blood test showed slightly higher Estrogen than previous which usually sits around 90 although the testosterone is also showing the highest reading to date. Prolactin is above the suggested range but I don’t think this has been tested before so have no history to reference. What are the negatives of high production besides gyno issues? Could it be the cause of my low libido?

If you could give your thoughts on the results listed below it’d be greatly appreciated. I’ll do my best to supply any additional info required to make a better judgement.

Many thanks,
Tom

Serum Prolactin level - 293mIU/L (56-278) “high”

Serum FSH level 0.2 I.U./1 (1.5-18.0) “low”

Serum LH level 0.2 I.U/1

Serum Estradiol level 189 pmol/L

Liver Function

Serum Albumin 43g/L (35-50)

Serum total Bilirubin level 7 umol/L (0-21

Serum ALT level 41u/L

Serum alkaline phosphatase 54 u/L (30-130)

Bone Profile

Serum calcium 2.25 nmol/L (2.20-2.60)

Serum inorganic phosphate 0.73 nmol/L (0.80-1.50) low

Serum sodium 136 nmol/L (133-146)

Serum potassium 4.3 nmol/L (3.5-5.3)

Serum creatinine 116 umol/L (59-104) high

Prostate specific antigen 0.30 ug/L (0.00-2.50)
Serum TSH level 0.90 mIU/L (0.30-4.80)

Serum Testosterone 23.1 nmol/L (10.0-30.0)

Full blood count

Lymphocyte count 0.4 10*9/L (1.0-4.0) low

45

It could, yes. High prolactin can lower T in the first place but yours is not high enough to lower T to that extent by itself but high prolactin is linked to lowish libido and mood problems. It’s easily controllable by rX cabergoline. Did you get a pituitary MRI before? You need to lower E2, that could be the major factor in libido. Your E2 is too high,most people feel like shit with an E2 of over 30 pg/ml, yours is over 50.

46

What went wrong on the cycle you did that youre on trt man? I’m 21 and I’m just studying up before I start

47

That’s not completely related to my problems in hindsight. If you read the thread, i did not have any symptoms originating from after the incident. I stopped it at 2 week mark so unlikely to have caused any damage. I have had low libido, energy and mood problems from 2011. I found out about the problem after i did pre-planned blood work 3 months after the “cycle” so saw the doctor. My testes have major vascular problems(varicocele’s on both sides and lowish sperm count) and my LH/FSH are strong indicating my pituitary is working but testes are not responding well. That’s why after 3 months of testes and trials, i decided to go for TRT to make a decision if it solves my symptoms.

48

Prolactin can be elevated from a pituitary adinoma. That can lower LH/FSH and thus T. All young men with secondary hypogonadism should be tested for elevated prolactin.

You need to lower E2 with anastrozole. E2=80 would be a good target. E2=189 could easily cause these problems:

  • low libido
  • moody/depressed
  • short tempered
  • not loosing fat as expected or adverse fat patterns
  • most of the symptoms of low T can return with high E2

Why is E2 high? E2 is cleared by the liver, so that is not right. Can be a liver condition or medications that interfere with livers ability to clear E2.

How are your oral body temperatures responding to your thyroid meds? If body temps are low, rT3 may be blocking fT3. See the thyroid basics sticky.

The stickies are now located here: About the T Replacement Category - #2 by KSman

49

I have had multiple scans to check my pituitary which have all come back ok.

With regards to the high E2, I tried to get an AI such as Anastrozole prescribed right from the beginning based on your recommendation Ksman but I’m sure as anyone in the UK being treated with TRT knows, it’s not easy. Once I finally managed to get prescribed testosterone I felt such a big improvement that I kind of stopped battling the doctors for an AI as the whole process was such an ordeal.

I’d be interested to hear of other people in the UK on TRT that are using an AI alongside TRT and how they managed to get hold of it/possibilities of getting it prescribed.

I have researched some online sources but most seem very expensive and others not so trustworthy. The alternative would be to find a gym “dealer” but can’t say I’m too keen on that idea.

@KSman are there any other options you could recommend for an AI if I’m unable to get Arimidex? Would Letro be suitable?

Out of the problems you’ve listed, more than one is all too familiar.
Am not entirely sure whether its my body fat or just water weight but I notice quite extreme fluctuations even though my diet stays pretty consistent, could this be related?

My body temperatures did improve and I no longer feel constantly cold like i used to but would need to retest body temperatures to give accurate temps.

@equalo212 think you may have posted your last message in the wrong thread?

@jaysanda I’ve never done a cycle in my life and really can’t say what has caused this. Would like to know what started this all off but perhaps its just a case of things go wrong in the body that are out of our control and not all can be explained. Hopefully one day, I’ll get to the bottom of this!

Have to admit i’m more tempted to try a cycle now seen as I’m already injecting but you should really assess your reasoning for doing a cycle and whether its really worth it. I’m 24 now and wouldn’t advise anyone to do a cycle unless you’re prepared to commit to it for life which I really don’t think anyone would want to do. Being reliant on drugs isn’t ideal and is something you’re going to have to consider every time you travel, consider moving etc.

Thanks again for all the input.

50

Wherever you can find letro, anastrozole should be available. Letro can work, but can be harsh in that its dose-response is not very predicable. That been said, one you found a dose that works for you it would be OK.

I think that getting E2 under control would change your life [again].

What is the upper normal range limit there for estradiol? Would exceeding that prompt the NHS to treat that?

51

Reviews from the online source say that the letro is good but Arimidex requires a higher than normal dosage which suggests the quality isn’t so great.

Would really like to hear others experience on getting Anastrozole in the UK.

Double checked the lab results and they show no normal range but found some information at the kink below which says below 146 so I’m already out of range even by their standards.

Haven’t had any feedback from the consultants on these results yet but I can almost guarantee that they will sooner suggest lowering T dosage to reduce E2 rather than use an AI :confused:

Can’t seem to post the link now.

52

That is a stupid thing to say. One drug can be metabolized quicker than another. Anastrozole 1mg/week is potent and effective.

How are your oral body temperatures responding to your thyroid meds? If
body temps are low, rT3 may be blocking fT3. See the thyroid basics
sticky.

53

Maybe I should have clarified, the comparison saying more is needed is in reference to other brands of Anastrozole, not Letro.

As I said above, my body temperature did improve but need to check again as haven’t tested for a while so will get some new temps to get a better picture of what’s going on.

Do you see any benefit to alternating AIs to avoid any potential side effects even though they should be minimal at such low dosages?

54

No. Once you get dosing to get a good target E2, don’t mess it up.

55

Got it. Am hoping to have some Arimidex by next week. You recommend 1mg in divided doses, the tabs are 1mg each so would dividing this into 2 doses taken on injection days (Wednesday’s and Sunday’s) be a sensible place to start?

I’ve taken temperatures under the tongue and am seeing an average of 36 in the am and 36.2 in the pm so still low.
I’ve raised my concerns on this once again to a number of consultants requesting further investigation, possible change in thyroid meds. Am hoping they play ball as current tests are very limited with just TSH, FSH being tested.

I have considered the possibility of my issues being caused by adrenal fatigue feel there are numerous factors that I feel suggest against, including;
I’ve had tests for cortisol which came back with no issues.
Training gives me energy.
Respond well to coffee/caffeine

How long would you suggest I wait before retesting bloods following the introduction of Arimidex?

56

How much Sust 250 are you injecting per week?
Most need 1mg anastrozole for each 100mg T per week
Inject T twice a week and take 1/2mg anastrozole at that time.

You should feel a big change in 6-7 days. If you are feeling great, no hurry to do the labs. A month would be good to let secondary effects settle out.

Remember that your E2=239 was a direct and predicable effect of “2000iu pregnl twice a week” which was simply stupid. Now E2 is from normal aromatization.

57

I get 1ml amps of 250mg which I divide into 2 doses and inject Wednesday and Sunday.
0.5mg twice a week sounds a nice simple protocol but do you think I should divide into more doses to account for the 50mg extra over the standard you’ve mentioned above?

Thinking back to the days when I was on Hcg reminds me what a dramatic improvement I’ve experienceda and am excited at the possibility of further improvement through dosing Arimidex.

Are there any signs I should look out for which may be caused by e2 dropping too low? Aching joints?

58

We often see that crashed E2 causes fast onset:

  • low libido
  • depression/mood problems
  • low energy
  • feeling generally like crap

Joint problems: I expect that this is from a longer duration of low estrogens.

Sustanon - Wikipedia
T esters yield bioidentical T when the body removes the ester groups. Heavier esters yield less testosterone. So 100mg sust has less T thatn 100mg T eth/cyp.

So I really don’t know what your dose means relative to other T ester products. So anastrozole needs are a bit foggy. Keep your existing T dosing and try 1/2mg anastrozole at time of injections and note how you feel and then E2 labs later on will tell you how to adjust the anastrozole dose.

59

Fingers crossed the 0.5mg doses will hit it just right as I don’t fancy any of those sides!

I did try to get Cypionate as per your recommendation but apparently that’s not available through the Nhs where I am.

Just want to say a big thank you for all the advice and knowledge you share on these forums. Have generally helped change so my peoples lives for the better. Maybe some of the tax we pay should be going to you rather than the doctors that seem to be very limited in providing good care.

60

Sustanon should work well for you.