21 Phily Priests Suspended

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]GLOCKTHNP wrote:
No man is resistant to sin. Do we not all sin. Yes priests are held to higher standard, yet even they are weak to sin just as all of you are. Look at the plank in your own eye before the speck in your brothers.[/quote]Read the 5th chapter of Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians. It ends like this: [quote]9-I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10-I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11-But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. 12-For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13-But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.[/quote]Emphasis indicates a quote from the Old Testament as per the NASB translators.
[/quote]

Yes, and we have records showing that those who are faithful to the Pope and the Church have done this, but guess what no one talks about it. Guess what happens someone has an allegation against the Church, rockets shoot up, blimps float in the air, news papers full steam ahead just to report the news. Some 40 year old trying to get some money from the Church is found to be lying…16th page you’ll see the story of the suit dropped. Maybe your own hatred and prejudice against Catholics blinds you from seeing this.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
We should expect priests to have a much lower rate of sexual molestation than the general public.
[/quote]

They do, 10% of general male population, 5% of religious clergy, and 1.5% of Catholic clergy.
For victims, 40-60% for family members, 20% for teachers, 2% for Catholic priests.

As well, just to show you another thing a majority of priests were charged/convicted of having sex with a minor, which is usually below 18 y/o not everyone of them is having sex with 7 year olds, actually only a few of them are.

Sunday, March 03, 2002

By Philip Jenkins

The Roman Catholic Church in the United States is going through one of the most traumatic periods in its long history.

 	Philip Jenkins is Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State. His book "Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis" was published by Oxford University Press in 1996.	 

Every day, the news media have a new horror story to report, under some sensational headline: Newsweek, typically, is devoting its current front cover to “Sex, Shame and the Catholic Church: 80 Priests Accused of Child Abuse in Boston.” Though the sex abuse cases have deep roots, the most recent scandals were detonated by the affair of Boston priest John J. Geoghan. Though his superiors had known for years of Geoghan’s pedophile activities, he kept being transferred from parish to parish, regardless of the safety of the children in his care. The stigma of the Geoghan affair could last for decades, and some Catholics are declaring in their outrage that they can never trust their church again.

No one can deny that Boston church authorities committed dreadful errors, but at the same time, the story is not quite the simple tale of good and evil that it sometime appears. Hard though it may be to believe right now, the “pedophile priest” scandal is nothing like as sinister as it has been painted – or at least, it should not be used to launch blanket accusations against the Catholic Church as a whole.

We have often heard the phrase “pedophile priest” in recent weeks. Such individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination – or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas – and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.

However much this statement contradicts conventional wisdom, the “pedophile priest” is not a Catholic specialty. Yet when did we ever hear about “pedophile pastors”?

Just to find some solid numbers, how many Catholic clergy are involved in misconduct? We actually have some good information on this issue, since in the early 1990s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago undertook a bold and thorough self-study. The survey examined every priest who had served in the archdiocese over the previous 40 years, some 2,200 individuals, and reopened every internal complaint ever made against these men. The standard of evidence applied was not legal proof that would stand up in a court of law, but just the consensus that a particular charge was probably justified.

By this low standard, the survey found that about 40 priests, about 1.8 percent of the whole, were probably guilty of misconduct with minors at some point in their careers. Put another way, no evidence existed against about 98 percent of parish clergy, the overwhelming majority of the group. Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.

The Chicago study also found that of the 2,200 priests, just one was a pedophile. Now, many people are confused about the distinction between a pedophile and a person guilty of sex with a minor. The difference is very significant. The phrase “pedophile priests” conjures up images of the worst violation of innocence, callous molesters like Father Porter who assault children 7 years old. “Pedophilia” is a psychiatric term meaning sexual interest in children below the age of puberty.

But the vast majority of clergy misconduct cases are nothing like this. The vast majority of instances involve priests who have been sexually active with a person below the age of sexual consent, often 16 or 17 years old, or even older. An act of this sort is wrong on multiple counts: It is probably criminal, and by common consent it is immoral and sinful; yet it does not have the utterly ruthless, exploitative character of child molestation. In almost all cases too, with the older teen-agers, there is an element of consent.

Also, the definition of “childhood” varies enormously between different societies. If an act of this sort occurred in most European countries, it would probably be legal, since the age of consent for boys is usually around 15. To take a specific example, when newspapers review recent cases of “pedophile priests,” they commonly cite a case that occurred in California’s Orange County, when a priest was charged with having consensual sex with a 17-year-old boy. Whatever the moral quality of such an act, most of us would not apply the term “child abuse” or “pedophilia.” For this reason alone, we need to be cautious when we read about scores of priests being “accused of child abuse.”

The age of the young person involved is also so important because different kinds of sexual misconduct respond differently to treatment, and church authorities need to respond differently. If a diocese knows a man is a pedophile, and ever again places him in a position where he has access to more children, that decision is simply wrong, and probably amounts to criminal neglect. But a priest who has a relationship with an older teen-ager is much more likely to respond to treatment, and it would be more understandable if some day the church placed him in a new parish, under careful supervision.

The fact that Cardinal Law’s regime in Boston seems to have blundered time and again does not mean that this is standard practice for all Catholic dioceses, still less that the church is engaged in some kind of conspiracy of silence to hide dangerous perverts.

I am in no sense soft on the issue of child abuse. Recently, I published an expose of the trade in electronic child pornography, one of the absolute worst forms of exploitation, and my argument was that the police and FBI need to be pressured to act more strictly against this awful thing.

My concern over the “pedophile priest” issue is not to defend evil clergy, or a sinful church (I cannot be called a Catholic apologist, since I am not even a Catholic). But I am worried that justified anger over a few awful cases might be turned into ill-focused attacks against innocent clergy. The story of clerical misconduct is bad enough without turning into an unjustifiable outbreak of religious bigotry against the Catholic Church.

http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.asp

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
We should expect priests to have a much lower rate of sexual molestation than the general public.
[/quote]

They do, 10% of general male population, 5% of religious clergy, and 1.5% of Catholic clergy.
For victims, 40-60% for family members, 20% for teachers, 2% for Catholic priests.
[/quote]

Are these numbers all conviction rates? In one instance at my elementary school the priest was molesting junior high age students (girls) in the confessional. This was maybe 1975, but he was never charged with anything. Had it not been for 1 girl he might never have been caught. And BTW I would hold a Catholic priest who takes a vow of chasity to a higher standard than a protestant minister/preacher. Isn’t violating a vow a mortal sin in the RC church?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
We should expect priests to have a much lower rate of sexual molestation than the general public.
[/quote]

They do, 10% of general male population, 5% of religious clergy, and 1.5% of Catholic clergy.
For victims, 40-60% for family members, 20% for teachers, 2% for Catholic priests.
[/quote]

Are these numbers all conviction rates?[/quote]

I believe so, I am on my phone so I can’t really look.

Then how do you know he is guilty.

So, he was caught but not charged and proven guilty? Then, he’s not guilty. Sorry, I don’t take allegations as proof of guilt.

Why are not both of them a vow to G-d? I hold them both equally the same. That is what I am saying, why would we allow the child molesters to get married. If a man cannot break one vow, how would he keep another vow?

You sure you went to Catholic school (never mind, you went to a Jesuit school)? How about we take the fact that he’s having extra-marital affairs as being the moral sin.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Actually it’s not, it’s the fact that even though Catholic clergy represent such a small percentage of the problem they exclusively get air time. Compared to say the large busts in the public school systems.[/quote]

I want to see the data. Public school teachers are around kids all day while Priests are generally not, but I have known of 2 teachers out of about 200 I have taught with who were found to have had some kind of sexual issue with a student and I’ve known 5 Roman Catholic priests out of about 50, despite the fact that the Priests had to basically had little opportunity to molest kids (they were rarely left alone privately with kids) while the teachers had teen aged students throwing themselves at them.

1.5% of priests getting caught molesting today, given their opportunity, and the chance of getting caught, reported may mean more than 20% of the general public relative to their opportunity and probability of getting caught.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Actually it’s not, it’s the fact that even though Catholic clergy represent such a small percentage of the problem they exclusively get air time. Compared to say the large busts in the public school systems.[/quote]

I want to see the data. Public school teachers are around kids all day while Priests are generally not, but I have known of 2 teachers out of about 200 I have taught with who were found to have had some kind of sexual issue with a student and I’ve known 5 Roman Catholic priests out of about 50, despite the fact that the Priests had to basically had little opportunity to molest kids (they were rarely left alone privately with kids) while the teachers had teen aged students throwing themselves at them.

1.5% of priests getting caught molesting today, given their opportunity, and the chance of getting caught, reported may mean more than 20% of the general public relative to their opportunity and probability of getting caught.

[/quote]

I already posted the source, to you! Go find it yourself.

1.5% over 50 years. Not at this moment, at this moment there has only been 6 credible allegations (not convictions). Do you just hate the Catholic Church or something? Because you’re basically saying that out of 41,406 priests in America there is 8281 child molesters? And actually, a priest has a lot of opportunity. Your statements make me wonder if you are just lying.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

So, he was caught but not charged and proven guilty? Then, he’s not guilty. Sorry, I don’t take allegations as proof of guilt.[/quote]

And that’s why your numbers will always be low. My dad was teaching 7th grade religion and talking about some doctrine that the sacramental validity does not depend on the moral state of the minister. A boy raised his hand and asked if that means that when Father X puts his hand in all the girls pants during confession, his Communion is still the real thing. They brought the priest in. He admitted everything. All of the parents asked that charges not be pressed and the priest was transferred, though in this case he was kept isolated from one on one contact with any parishoner.

[quote]
Why are not both of them a vow to G-d? I hold them both equally the same. That is what I am saying, why would we allow the child molesters to get married. If a man cannot break one vow, how would he keep another vow?[/quote]

We would put all unmarried priests in monestaries. I’d like to see the rate of molestation by married Catholic men. I bet its not very high. Isn’t Catholic Marriage supposed to provide some kind of grace? Doesn’t seem to be working.

I did not take any religion/theology classes from the Jesuit priests. They only taught religious history. We had intensive catechism from 2nd grade through 7th grade at my Parochial school.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
1.5% over 50 years. Not at this moment, at this moment there has only been 6 credible allegations (not convictions). Do you just hate the Catholic Church or something? Because you’re basically saying that out of 41,406 priests in America there is 8281 child molesters? And actually, a priest has a lot of opportunity. Your statements make me wonder if you are just lying.[/quote]

Priests do not have 30 kids in a room with them each hour for 6 hours a day.

I don’t hate it. I was going through my gradeschool yearbook and we had 4 incredible priests over the years, one who was OK, one child molester, one sexual predator of counselling subjects, one who solicited boys who were 18-21 and had sex with other priests, one who died of aids, and one who was a sociopath and drug and alcohol addict. I loved the 4 priests who I call incredible. I think you get more priests like that if you also open the door to married priests. You are limiting your talent pool to a small percentage who are willing to give up marriage and that leads to people who simply are not good around other people!

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Yes, and we have records showing that those who are faithful to the Pope and the Church have done this, but guess what no one talks about it. Guess what happens someone has an allegation against the Church, rockets shoot up, blimps float in the air, news papers full steam ahead just to report the news. Some 40 year old trying to get some money from the Church is found to be lying…16th page you’ll see the story of the suit dropped. Maybe your own hatred and prejudice against Catholics blinds you from seeing this.[/quote]I believe there is a fair amount of truth to this Chris. I will also say that I’m sure a substantial % are in fact gold diggers. Reasons I was so very reticent to head down this alley in the first place. I am truly not sitting here giggling and hoping for the latest horrendous news of perversion and abuse from your church.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

So, he was caught but not charged and proven guilty? Then, he’s not guilty. Sorry, I don’t take allegations as proof of guilt.[/quote]

And that’s why your numbers will always be low. My dad was teaching 7th grade religion and talking about some doctrine that the sacramental validity does not depend on the moral state of the minister. A boy raised his hand and asked if that means that when Father X puts his hand in all the girls pants during confession, his Communion is still the real thing. They brought the priest in. He admitted everything. All of the parents asked that charges not be pressed and the priest was transferred, though in this case he was kept isolated from one on one contact with any parishoner.[/quote]

Okay, that’s anecdotal at best. What’s not anecdotal is that ~50% of allegations aren’t taken anywhere.

And, the dealings with allegations and being found guilty. I’ve been alleged to do a lot of stuff, I have found to be guilty of very little, and guilty of less than that. I still take my medicine, but I don’t expect to be treated as I am guilty when not found guilty.

[quote]

Lol, what are you talking about?

Okay, catechesis is teaching of religion and theology.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Okay, catechesis is teaching of religion and theology.[/quote]

At my Diocesan PAROCHIAL K-8 SCHOOL! I didn’t know what a Jesuit was until highschool.

We had a year of Seminary education by the time we left 8th grade. Seriously, day 1 7th grade was the 5 ways of Thomas Aquinas, and it didn’t slow down after that. I had 160 pages of notes from 7th grade religion class.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< All of the parents asked that charges not be pressed >>>[/quote]I jist ain’t buyin this one chief.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< All of the parents asked that charges not be pressed >>>[/quote]I jist ain’t buyin this one chief.
[/quote]

That is what my Dad was told, because he wanted there to be charges pressed. Some Diocesan representative came in with an Irish Catholic police detective and said “were sorry, the priest admits it but we can’t procede criminally if the kids don’t want to testify and its not in their best interest to publicise this”.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
1.5% over 50 years. Not at this moment, at this moment there has only been 6 credible allegations (not convictions). Do you just hate the Catholic Church or something? Because you’re basically saying that out of 41,406 priests in America there is 8281 child molesters? And actually, a priest has a lot of opportunity. Your statements make me wonder if you are just lying.[/quote]

Priests do not have 30 kids in a room with them each hour for 6 hours a day.[/quote]

Yes, and how many teachers are found to molest a child in a room of 30 kids. Priests have a lot more one on one time with individuals then teachers.

[quote]
I don’t hate it. I was going through my gradeschool yearbook and we had 4 incredible priests over the years, one who was OK, one child molester, one sexual predator of counselling subjects, one who solicited boys who were 18-21 and had sex with other priests, one who died of aids, and one who was a sociopath and drug and alcohol addict.[/quote]

A little anecdotal, but you have to understand that you were with the Jesuits. Even though they have done great things over the years, in recent times they have been known for their almost complete dissent from the Catholic Church.

You’re missing the point, the priests aren’t going to become great just because they married. They will become great with good formation to the teaching of the Church, and a lack of social privileges from the position of being a priest. Looking at priests from the 40’s to the 80’s or so it was a great honor in society to be a priest. Guess what happened, you had every degenerate wanting to become a priest. There were also great priests, but the bad people wanted in as well.

Now, what has happened, there is no social privileges, priests and Catholics are hated. No reason to go to seminary for 9-12 years in order to become a priest because it’s an honorable position. I have visited some seminaries (I am discerning to become a priest) and the seminaries now have rock solid formation. Strictness in behavior as well, the standards have been raised.

[quote]
You are limiting your talent pool to a small percentage who are willing to give up marriage and that leads to people who simply are not good around other people![/quote]

Lol, well maybe you should go visit the seminaries and see what has happened with even more stringent standards in place (doubling of seminarians). All these guys in seminary can do anything they wanted to, run a business, be a scientist, a lawyer, a doctor, and they have the wit of serpents. However, innocent as doves. I told my evangelical buddy, who is a seminarian, what you just said. And, he laughed; he’s one of the least social people I know in the 10 seminaries I have visited.

Just to prove my point, we are keeping tally on how many people we each have who said they’ll come to Church tomorrow…50-100. He has me doubled, and I’ve been doing sales for seven years.

From the evidence of the last 60 years, when you loosen the limits on who can become a priest, the bad ones get in. When you tighten up the limits on who can become a priest, the types you want to enter actually increase.

[quote]A little anecdotal, but you have to understand that you were with the Jesuits. Even though they have done great things over the years, in recent times they have been known for their almost complete dissent from the Catholic Church.
[/quote]

No those were the priests at the diocesan K-8 school I attended. The Jesuit priests were not really out amongst parishoners very much.

I have known great single Roman Catholic priests, and great married Orthodox Christian priests, but far more antisocials among the single priests of both denomonations.

But I also had a former HS student who is an incredible kid, could have been a Doctor, or just about anything, and he is in Seminary now. I may go visit. He may not enter the priesthood because he is weighing it against his desire to have a family though. When he graduated from HS about 5 years ago he told me that the seminaries were shrinking but they were launching new recruiting campaigns. Hey all of the Apostles were married and there are good candidates who would be priests if they could marry too. Why is it wrong?

But maybe there HAD been a seminary crisis because they were not selective enough, and potential seminarians didn’t want to go to seminary with a bunch of moral slackers, so I could see how raising the standards could get more good candidates.

For me, it’s not that horrible acts were done to kids - and I’m not trying to minimize that. It’s the way the priests used their supposed divine authority to have their way. I’ve read reports where priests threatened kids with hell and damnation if they told anyone. They also made it seem like it was their fault this happened. Add psychological abuse to the mix of physical and sexual abuse. Second, and perhaps more important in my mind, was the way the situation was handled. There was a massive coverd up, plain and simple. This conspiracy extended to many levels of the church. This makes the entire church a corrupt organization under the RICO statute - the same statute that is used to prosecute the Mob. Too bad a federal prosecutor doesn’t have the guts to file a criminal action against the church. If I were a prosecutor I’d like to try.

I have a question, off topic, I’m sorry.

Why has the doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church serve the services of Vespers, Matins, Compine, Hours, all of the services that were done daily for centuries. Are they still done in Cathedrals?

Why has the Roman Catholic church abondoned the fasting guidelines of the Ecumenical councils, even those blessed and attended by Popes of Rome? My friend says that his grandmother in Italy still will not have any meat, eggs or dairy products during lent. Why has that all been apparently abandoned? And monks were prescribed to never eat meat.

Why aren’t those things important anymore?

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I have known great single Roman Catholic priests, and great married Orthodox Christian priests, but far more antisocials among the single priests of both denomonations.
[/quote]

It’s common sense. If I told you about a guy who was late 20s/early 30s, single, never been married, never really dated and currently doesn’t date, what would be your immediate impression of this man? Gay? Anti-social? Just a bit “odd?” I think even the most tolerant among us would think that this guy was somehow “odd.”

Same guy, but now he wears a collar and is called “priest.” That’s okay. He is a man of God - he followed a calling. Anyone else see a double standard? The priesthood provides a haven, a refuge if you will, for men who would otherwise be considered “odd” if they remained in society.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
I have known great single Roman Catholic priests, and great married Orthodox Christian priests, but far more antisocials among the single priests of both denomonations.
[/quote]

You say some great stuff, but you just don’t get the whole picture. You want to know the reason for these anti-socialites? Because they went into the priesthood to become socialites, because becoming a priest gave them high social status. Now, they don’t. So you only see the good ones now-a-days.