[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Even if Bell got stuffed on that play last night, and Pitt lost, I’d still respect the shear balls it took to call that play.
Hat’s off, hat’s off. [/quote]
That was a great game.
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
Sitting with a clipboard and learning the game can be valuable, but non-starters need reps. Obviously NFL teams will want backups to be on their roster and not in another league, but even if there was a third tier of QB’s in a development league then that would benefit the NFL. I mean, it’s extremely telling the state of non-starting QB’s when there really isn’t even one legit backup that isn’t signed.[/quote]
I certainly don’t disagree but it’s the getting reps versus 1st-team defenses that it ultimately comes down to. After all, there’s a reason that the “career backup” tag exists.
In the NFL, where EVERYONE is fast, even processing/reading the defense correctly isn’t enough. The best QBs will often “throw a receiver open” or simply pick a (perceived) mismatch and “trust” their receiver to go and make a play.
Really, it just speaks to how difficult it is to be a legit franchise QB at the pro level. Cause there’s less than 20 of 'em right now and that’s kinda how its always been.
[/quote]
While obviously reps against first team defenses are important, a lot can be said for learning the game and getting a lot more reps even if the competition is not as good. NFL Europe and the CFL produced Kurt Warner, Joe Theismann, Warren Moon, etc. That’s just QB’s, too. There are lots of players who have/had talented NFL careers who came from another league.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]mbdix wrote:
Weeden is 0-11 in his last 11 starts in the NFL[/quote]
I still remember people saying he was going to be the Brown’s savior…
I know developmental leagues like NFL Europe were expensive, but I think the QB position is the perfect example of what happens when you only have 1 player at a position for (hopefully) an entire season. Sitting with a clipboard and learning the game can be valuable, but non-starters need reps. Obviously NFL teams will want backups to be on their roster and not in another league, but even if there was a third tier of QB’s in a development league then that would benefit the NFL. I mean, it’s extremely telling the state of non-starting QB’s when there really isn’t even one legit backup that isn’t signed.[/quote]
I think and hope that with rookie salary caps that eventually teams will swing back to getting developmental QBs and sitting them. But I still also believes that the owners and fans are creating this by no HC is safe in their jobs any more. No HC’s are given time to turn the rosters and develop their system. Used to HC’s would have at least 5 years to turn a team around. Now you have a year or two and then you are booted. Its a shame cause with some time some players could develop. [/quote]
It’s definitely a “win now or get fired” league, which is sad. You’re right, HC’s don’t get enough time to instill their program and turn the roster over. As for QB prospects, I am not longer sure what is the right way to go about things. I think the most important thing isn’t sitting/playing them, but the state of the organization.
Steve Young is an interesting example. Plays in the USFL for two years, plays for the Bucs for two years, then “sits” behind Montana while subbing in for the injured starter and throws almost a season’s worth of attempts over the course of four years. Then you have cases people like to point out like Rodgers sitting for so long or on the flipside you have Peyton (first year starter) and Brady (second year starter) getting their number called a lot sooner.
Regardless, all these examples are of HOF players which do not come around very often. I think a more accurate study would be on those 2nd and 3rd tier QB’s.
Interesting enough, if you look back on the top 10 QB ratings for prior seasons:
2014: 8 of 10 were starters by their second season (Rodgers and Fitzpatrick)
2013: 8 of 10 were starters by their second season (Rodgers and McCown)
2012: 8 of 10 were starters by their second season (Rodgers and Schaub)
You can make a pretty convincing argument then that by their second season a QB should be a starter to see whether they have the intangibles or not to be a franchise QB (they all pretty much have the physical tools).
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Even if Bell got stuffed on that play last night, and Pitt lost, I’d still respect the shear balls it took to call that play.
Hat’s off, hat’s off. [/quote]
I’ve long been an advocate of teams being more agressive when it comes down to “go for the win or go for OT” and I was happy to see them make that call regardless of the outcome. Glad to see it paid off, though.
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
Sitting with a clipboard and learning the game can be valuable, but non-starters need reps. Obviously NFL teams will want backups to be on their roster and not in another league, but even if there was a third tier of QB’s in a development league then that would benefit the NFL. I mean, it’s extremely telling the state of non-starting QB’s when there really isn’t even one legit backup that isn’t signed.[/quote]
I certainly don’t disagree but it’s the getting reps versus 1st-team defenses that it ultimately comes down to. After all, there’s a reason that the “career backup” tag exists.
In the NFL, where EVERYONE is fast, even processing/reading the defense correctly isn’t enough. The best QBs will often “throw a receiver open” or simply pick a (perceived) mismatch and “trust” their receiver to go and make a play.
Really, it just speaks to how difficult it is to be a legit franchise QB at the pro level. Cause there’s less than 20 of 'em right now and that’s kinda how its always been.
[/quote]
While obviously reps against first team defenses are important, a lot can be said for learning the game and getting a lot more reps even if the competition is not as good. NFL Europe and the CFL produced Kurt Warner, Joe Theismann, Warren Moon, etc. That’s just QB’s, too. There are lots of players who have/had talented NFL careers who came from another league.
[/quote]
I definitely support a minor league system for the NFL. Imagine how much talent is being lost because it is not being developed? There’s little for the in-betweeners and if they cannot hone their skills on their own, they are lost. I am betting there is some real NFL talent doing sales jobs and other such shit.
But I do not know the cost of developing such a system. But it would be great to have a real spring league during the year. Where 2nd strings can get more reps and other guys can develop.
I think it would be great for the game, it doesn’t have to be in Europe it can be right here as a minor league system, like baseball has.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]chillain wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
Sitting with a clipboard and learning the game can be valuable, but non-starters need reps. Obviously NFL teams will want backups to be on their roster and not in another league, but even if there was a third tier of QB’s in a development league then that would benefit the NFL. I mean, it’s extremely telling the state of non-starting QB’s when there really isn’t even one legit backup that isn’t signed.[/quote]
I certainly don’t disagree but it’s the getting reps versus 1st-team defenses that it ultimately comes down to. After all, there’s a reason that the “career backup” tag exists.
In the NFL, where EVERYONE is fast, even processing/reading the defense correctly isn’t enough. The best QBs will often “throw a receiver open” or simply pick a (perceived) mismatch and “trust” their receiver to go and make a play.
Really, it just speaks to how difficult it is to be a legit franchise QB at the pro level. Cause there’s less than 20 of 'em right now and that’s kinda how its always been.
[/quote]
While obviously reps against first team defenses are important, a lot can be said for learning the game and getting a lot more reps even if the competition is not as good. NFL Europe and the CFL produced Kurt Warner, Joe Theismann, Warren Moon, etc. That’s just QB’s, too. There are lots of players who have/had talented NFL careers who came from another league.
[/quote]
I definitely support a minor league system for the NFL. Imagine how much talent is being lost because it is not being developed? There’s little for the in-betweeners and if they cannot hone their skills on their own, they are lost. I am betting there is some real NFL talent doing sales jobs and other such shit.
But I do not know the cost of developing such a system. But it would be great to have a real spring league during the year. Where 2nd strings can get more reps and other guys can develop.
I think it would be great for the game, it doesn’t have to be in Europe it can be right here as a minor league system, like baseball has.[/quote]
Agreed
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Even if Bell got stuffed on that play last night, and Pitt lost, I’d still respect the shear balls it took to call that play.
Hat’s off, hat’s off. [/quote]
I’ve long been an advocate of teams being more agressive when it comes down to “go for the win or go for OT” and I was happy to see them make that call regardless of the outcome. Glad to see it paid off, though.[/quote]
I think the observation that the Steelers D was completely gassed probably helped in that decision. They were running on fumes in the 4th. Both D’s were really, but especially Pitt.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Even if Bell got stuffed on that play last night, and Pitt lost, I’d still respect the shear balls it took to call that play.
Hat’s off, hat’s off. [/quote]
Bell had an amazing game. He gets the game ball IMO.
Biggest problem with a minor league system is shelf life.
In baseball you’re hitting your prime at 33-35. That age in Football is an old ass man outside of QB and OL, and a rare safety or two. Maybe a TE too.
I get most would want to do it, but you’re asking players to piss away their best years getting beat on for, well, peanuts and a chance.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Biggest problem with a minor league system is shelf life.
In baseball you’re hitting your prime at 33-35. That age in Football is an old ass man outside of QB and OL, and a rare safety or two. Maybe a TE too.
I get most would want to do it, but you’re asking players to piss away their best years getting beat on for, well, peanuts and a chance. [/quote]
True but I can say that a lot of people would jump at even that chance.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Biggest problem with a minor league system is shelf life.
In baseball you’re hitting your prime at 33-35. That age in Football is an old ass man outside of QB and OL, and a rare safety or two. Maybe a TE too.
I get most would want to do it, but you’re asking players to piss away their best years getting beat on for, well, peanuts and a chance. [/quote]
True but I can say that a lot of people would jump at even that chance.[/quote]
Sure, and I agree.
But are we talking about minor league baseball and hockey salaries here or what?
What about retirement, injury prevention, health insurance, concussion issues etc? I mean it’s an expensive endeavor for both owners and players.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Biggest problem with a minor league system is shelf life.
In baseball you’re hitting your prime at 33-35. That age in Football is an old ass man outside of QB and OL, and a rare safety or two. Maybe a TE too.
I get most would want to do it, but you’re asking players to piss away their best years getting beat on for, well, peanuts and a chance. [/quote]
True but I can say that a lot of people would jump at even that chance.[/quote]
Sure, and I agree.
But are we talking about minor league baseball and hockey salaries here or what?
What about retirement, injury prevention, health insurance, concussion issues etc? I mean it’s an expensive endeavor for both owners and players. [/quote]
I don’t think I can draw you up a business model, I just think it would be a cool thing to have, both for extra football and player development. Players who just may be a year or 2 behind their peers and just need reps in real situations. If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Biggest problem with a minor league system is shelf life.
In baseball you’re hitting your prime at 33-35. That age in Football is an old ass man outside of QB and OL, and a rare safety or two. Maybe a TE too.
I get most would want to do it, but you’re asking players to piss away their best years getting beat on for, well, peanuts and a chance. [/quote]
Of course players would do it… Let’s see… Be out of the league completely or be in a developmental league with the chance to move up… ZERO hesitation on the part of A LOT of players. Look at how popular regional combines etc are. People want to play…
[quote]pat wrote:
If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor. [/quote]
Sure, it could. Play on Tuesday and Wednesday nights and you might get national TV audience. Or play in the off season.
would need an iron clad waiver, and almost no sort of player’s union though. I’m mostly concerned about litigation. One dude gets put in a wheel chair or has a life altering concussion and that league is getting sued (and the NFL too) out it’s asshole.
It could certainly work, and would be a god’s send for at the very least a handful of players a year that get spots on NFL rosters. Just has to be handled correctly. And, if handled correctly, expect the NCAA to throw a major fucking fit. You’d have quite a few kids go right from high school to that developmental league to actually get paid to play, and not completely extorted by the NCAA.
[quote]daltron wrote:
NFL Europe and the CFL produced Kurt Warner, Joe Theismann, Warren Moon, etc. That’s just QB’s, too. There are lots of players who have/had talented NFL careers who came from another league.[/quote]
Good point.
And in addition to the win-now imperative placed on HC’s, there’s also the minor contribution provided by the early success of Cam, Luck and RG3 as rookies. Before that, there was little expectation/belief that rookie QBs could enjoy immediate success vs pro-level competition. And before that, teams were basically “forced” to start their highly-drafted rookie QBs because of the outrageous contracts they were being guaranteed (ie. Bradford)
But it sure looks like that earlier assessment is the correct one, even if we can add Mariota’s name to that (short) list of exceptions.
-edited-
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor. [/quote]
And, if handled correctly, expect the NCAA to throw a major fucking fit. You’d have quite a few kids go right from high school to that developmental league to actually get paid to play, and not completely extorted by the NCAA. [/quote]
I would imagine the same NFL rules on eligibility would apply, just like before. If you don’t make it in the draft, then you can be an UFA, or be eligible for the developmental league draft.
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor. [/quote]
And, if handled correctly, expect the NCAA to throw a major fucking fit. You’d have quite a few kids go right from high school to that developmental league to actually get paid to play, and not completely extorted by the NCAA. [/quote]
I would imagine the same NFL rules on eligibility would apply, just like before. If you don’t make it in the draft, then you can be an UFA, or be eligible for the developmental league draft.[/quote]
It’s not a true minor league then.
I’m basically all for anything that stuffs the NCAA right in the ass. I’m sorry but Bush loses his Heisman but a dude covering up for a monster assraping children in the shower gets his “wins reinstated”? Fuck the NCAA, and no one can refute they greatly and completely exploit these athletes. Shit they don’t’ even force them to learn shit at college.
If this became an alternative to the NCAA… It would be huge, at least up here in the North East where like 3% of people even give a fuck about College football.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor. [/quote]
And, if handled correctly, expect the NCAA to throw a major fucking fit. You’d have quite a few kids go right from high school to that developmental league to actually get paid to play, and not completely extorted by the NCAA. [/quote]
I would imagine the same NFL rules on eligibility would apply, just like before. If you don’t make it in the draft, then you can be an UFA, or be eligible for the developmental league draft.[/quote]
It’s not a true minor league then.
[/quote]
I never said anything about a minor league, I said a developmental league. Big difference. Something positioned BETWEEN the NCAA and the NFL.
Something that caught my interest and I think could be a possible area to get “lost” talent into the pros is that veteran draft they had. Tweak it a little. The league is making multiple billions of dollars a year. They could put together a team that handles the process of selecting the pool of athletes that can go into the supplemental draft.
The league sets up some minimum performance standards.
Skilled positions could be vertical jump, 40, broad jump, and 225 for reps.
Lineman could be 225 for reps, and a 300# sled push for 10 yds timed. Take some NFL interior lineman from each position an elite, starter, bench player to get a baseline # and determine what they think should qualify a person based on those results.
Now have an address both physical and electrical where filmed evidence can be submitted to the NFL supplemental draft team. If you have filmed proof that you meet the standards for the draft…you’re in. Then you have a long, multiple week combine. During the combine players would be put through all kinds of drills and competitions. On top of normal NFL combine drills, skilled players might have seven on seven flag football competitions/tournament. Lineman could have a strongman competition/tournament.
Everything is filmed and grouped by skilled and lineman. Teams might have some d-line needs, they could call up the draft team and have all the lineman videos sent to their scout team.
Finally have a deadline in place where teams that have interest in possibly drafting one of these players can submit to the league that they want to be in the supplemental draft. Drafting order would be the same as the normal draft order of that year. If a team doesn’t request to be in the draft, every team that is in the draft would just move up in the order when comes to that point. The amount of rounds would be determined by the amount of players the teams have submitted that they are interested in.
Any event is up for sale. And all events will be sold. If no networks want to purchase the event, the NFL draft team contacts public broadcast networks and lets them air the competitions for free.
The minor league post in here got me thinking a little bit.
[quote]daltron wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
If promoted well, I think it could be a profitable endeavor. [/quote]
And, if handled correctly, expect the NCAA to throw a major fucking fit. You’d have quite a few kids go right from high school to that developmental league to actually get paid to play, and not completely extorted by the NCAA. [/quote]
I would imagine the same NFL rules on eligibility would apply, just like before. If you don’t make it in the draft, then you can be an UFA, or be eligible for the developmental league draft.[/quote]
My bold prediction about the NCAA is it’s going to get FIFA’d. I predict a huge scandal to be revealed and and bunch of those assholes go to jail. I mean, we all know it’s corrupt as shit, its just a matter of time before it catches up with them.