2001 Obama Interview

Sounds to me below that Obama is bemoaning the fact that the Court didn’t (and doesn’t) have the authority to enact redistributive economic policies. Odd? Yes. Frightening? Yes.

Moreover, I believe it was to this that Mr. Kimball was referring.

Finally, what cannot be done by the courts, the chosen one will try to achieve from the Executive Branch.


[i]You know, if you look at the victories and failures of the civil-rights movement, and its litigation strategy in the court, I think where it succeeded was to vest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples. So that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at a lunch counter and order and as long as I could pay for it, I’d be okay, but the Supreme Court never entered into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society.

And uh, to that extent, as radical as I think people tried to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution - at least as it’s been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted it in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: [It] says what the states can’t do to you, says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.

And that hasn’t shifted, and one of the, I think, the tragedies of the civil-rights movement was because the civil-rights movement became so court -focused, uh, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change. And in some ways we still suffer from that. [/i]

A caller then helpfully asks: “The gentleman made the point that the Warren Court wasn�??t terribly radical. My question is (with economic changes)�?� my question is, is it too late for that kind of reparative work, economically, and is that the appropriate place for reparative economic work to change place?”

Obama replies:

[i][u]You know, I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. The institution just isn’t structured that way. [snip] You start getting into all sorts of separation of powers issues, you know, in terms of the court monitoring or engaging in a process that essentially is administrative and takes a lot of time. You know, the court is just not very good at it, and politically, it’s just very hard to legitimize opinions from the court in that regard.

So I think that, although you can craft theoretical justifications for it, legally, you know, I think any three of us sitting here could come up with a rationale for bringing about economic change through the courts.[/i][/u]

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Sounds to me below that Obama is bemoaning the fact that the Court didn’t (and doesn’t) have the authority to enact redistributive economic policies. Odd? Yes. Frightening? Yes.

Moreover, I believe it was to this that Mr. Kimball was referring.

Finally, what cannot be done by the courts, the chosen one will try to achieve from the Executive Branch.


[i]You know, if you look at the victories and failures of the civil-rights movement, and its litigation strategy in the court, I think where it succeeded was to vest formal rights in previously dispossessed peoples. So that I would now have the right to vote, I would now be able to sit at a lunch counter and order and as long as I could pay for it, I’d be okay, but the Supreme Court never entered into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and sort of more basic issues of political and economic justice in this society.

And uh, to that extent, as radical as I think people tried to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn’t that radical. It didn’t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution - at least as it’s been interpreted, and Warren Court interpreted it in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties: [It] says what the states can’t do to you, says what the federal government can’t do to you, but it doesn’t say what the federal government or the state government must do on your behalf.

And that hasn’t shifted, and one of the, I think, the tragedies of the civil-rights movement was because the civil-rights movement became so court -focused, uh, I think that there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change. And in some ways we still suffer from that. [/i]

A caller then helpfully asks: “The gentleman made the point that the Warren Court wasn�??t terribly radical. My question is (with economic changes)�?� my question is, is it too late for that kind of reparative work, economically, and is that the appropriate place for reparative economic work to change place?”

Obama replies:

[i][u]You know, I’m not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. The institution just isn’t structured that way. [snip] You start getting into all sorts of separation of powers issues, you know, in terms of the court monitoring or engaging in a process that essentially is administrative and takes a lot of time. You know, the court is just not very good at it, and politically, it’s just very hard to legitimize opinions from the court in that regard.

So I think that, although you can craft theoretical justifications for it, legally, you know, I think any three of us sitting here could come up with a rationale for bringing about economic change through the courts.[/i][/u]

[/quote]

Yeah, it sounds pretty clearly like he wanted the Supreme Court to get involved in wealth re-distribution.

No it doesn’t. It is quite clear that he is explaining to the caller why the courts cannot get involved in wealth distribution, and why it was a bad idea for the civil rights movement to focus on using the courts for that purpose instead of trying to get legislation passed. In other words, he is not saying that he thinks the court should have been more willing to support wealth redistribution. He is saying that people should have recognized the limitations of the court for what they were, and pursued their agenda through political means.

Why is this hard to understand? Why is it even controversial?

Oh, he wants to redistribute wealth using political means. Well, that’s better!

[quote]milod wrote:
No it doesn’t. It is quite clear that he is explaining to the caller why the courts cannot get involved in wealth distribution, and why it was a bad idea for the civil rights movement to focus on using the courts for that purpose instead of trying to get legislation passed. In other words, he is not saying that he thinks the court should have been more willing to support wealth redistribution. He is saying that people should have recognized the limitations of the court for what they were, and pursued their agenda through political means.

Why is this hard to understand? Why is it even controversial?[/quote]

It’s almost impossible that a person who can wipe their own ass can hear in his statements what you are saying. Maybe you can’t… wipe your own ass that is.

Unbelievable.

This guy could show up in your town wearing a Chairman Mao T-Shirt, with the hammer and sickle flying on his stage, propose a windfall tax on American industry to rebuild the tragically lost Berlin Wall, apologize to Castro for forcing Khrushchev to remove his missiles, declare his desire to fire our military command and put it under formal UN control, and sing the praises of the Virgin Lands Campaign (if only it had been in the right hands) and people like you would continue to delude yourselves with fantasies of misunderstanding.

They’re just now figuring this out? They needed a tape from seven years ago to see it?

[quote]Demiajax wrote:

I just think it’s really funny that anyone considers this guy a fabulously gifted and well-informed writer. [/quote]

You’d need to be more literate to make such a claim. Kimball is well-respected as a critic and author, even outside of political circles.

[quote]From sensationalist Kimball:

" �??The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth.�??

Got that? That, according to the Democratic nominee for President of the United States, was part of the �??tragedy�?? of the civil-rights movement. "

This is a statement unsupported by the portion of the transcript in which Obama talks about the “tragedies” of the civil rights movements. At most you can argue an indirect correlation between the “tragedies” and the “redistributive change.”

The “tragedy” is, in part, referring to Civil Rights Movement’s reliance on the courts instead of building “coalitions of power.” [/quote]

Completely false. Here is the transcript:

If you look at the victories and failures of the civil rights movement and its litigation strategy in the court. I think where it succeeded was to invest formal rights in previously dispossessed people, so that now I would have the right to vote. I would now be able to sit at the lunch counter and order as long as I could pay for it I�??d be o.k. But, the Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.

The point was victories and failures, per his opening sentence. Read it - victory was “formal rights”, failure was not getting “redistribution of wealth”. That is his own thesis of the litigation strategy for civil rights - good for formal rights, but wasn’t good for redistribution - and it is clear he wanted both.

More:

To that extent, as radical as I think people try to characterize the Warren Court, it wasn�??t that radical. It didn�??t break free from the essential constraints that were placed by the founding fathers in the Constitution, at least as its been interpreted and Warren Court interpreted in the same way, that generally the Constitution is a charter of negative liberties. Says what the states can�??t do to you. [b]Says what the Federal government can�??t do to you, but doesn�??t say what the Federal government or State government must do on your behalf, and that hasn�??t shifted and one of the, I think, tragedies of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change. In some ways we still suffer from that.[/b]

Note that the “tragedies” that he speaks of is that too much of a litigation focus failed to get “economic justice” realized - a strategic mistake that “we are still suffering from”.

Aside from your initial ad hominem, your post doesn’t even make sense to any honest reading - no doubt that Obama was discussing that one of the disappointments of the Civil Rights era was the failure to bring about “redistributive change”, whether through courts or otherwise.

Obama notes that the overconcentration on the “court focus” was a strategic error if you want the whole kit and kaboodle - he is just a realist that the effort to get “redistributive change” must done politically, rather than judicially (to his chagrin).

There is no misrepresentation at all, but given your initial hysterics to try and discredit the author while making no attempt to address his argument (or anyone else’s), there’s little reason to extend you any leeway.

Obama’s bit shows his true colors - and your little partisan fire drill can’t change it.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
<<< Obama’s bit shows his true colors - and your little partisan fire drill can’t change it.[/quote]

You have to stand in gape jawed awe at these gold medalists of delusion.

Great post by the way.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Oh, he wants to redistribute wealth using political means. Well, that’s better! [/quote]

Meaningless.
McCain redistributes up, Obama down.
We have a progressive tax system for good reasons. A tax system of any sort redistributes wealth. Moving on…

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, he wants to redistribute wealth using political means. Well, that’s better!

Meaningless.
McCain redistributes up, Obama down.
We have a progressive tax system for good reasons. A tax system of any sort redistributes wealth. Moving on…[/quote]

There must be something in the water in Mass. that has people viewing a private entitie’s keeping it’s own money as redistribution.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, he wants to redistribute wealth using political means. Well, that’s better!

Meaningless.
McCain redistributes up, Obama down.
We have a progressive tax system for good reasons. A tax system of any sort redistributes wealth. Moving on…[/quote]

If by “redistributing up” you mean bailouts, subsidies, etc., I’ve made my opposition known. Of course, all taxpayers pay for those, though. If you mean, that by letting the rich keep more of their own, wealth is being redistributed up, I can see why you’d vote Obama.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Oh, he wants to redistribute wealth using political means. Well, that’s better!

Meaningless.
McCain redistributes up, Obama down.
We have a progressive tax system for good reasons. A tax system of any sort redistributes wealth. Moving on…[/quote]

Yes and no. Any progressive tax systems is quote-unquote ‘socialist’ to some degree. And a disproportionate tax cut that primarily benefits the wealthy is bullshit in my opinion.

HOWEVER, there are aspects of Obama’s tax plan that smack of socialism. It’s one thing to say those in a certain income bracket are too poor to pay taxes at all. But to give a tax ‘credit’ to those who don’t pay any taxes? How can you ever say that’s anything but a handout? Maybe not welfare since these people do work. But the end result is still Group A being taxed where their taxes partially go to give Group B a cash gift. This goes beyond contributions to fund programs and initiatives being tailored to wealth and what people can afford to pay.

At the least, the tax credit for income tax should be capped at the amount of payroll taxes people pay so that the net result is zero taxation instead of a handout.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

It’s almost impossible that a person who can wipe their own ass can hear in his statements what you are saying.[/quote]

No, I think it’s just that I am able to comprehend simple English.

Here is a more complete quoting of Obama’s response to the caller who was asking about judicial activism:

[quote]Obama said:

Maybe i am showing my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor, but you know, I am not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know the institution just isn�??t structured that way. Just look at very rare examples where during he desegregation era the court was willing to, for example, order �?� changes that cost money to local school district[s], and the court was very uncomfortable with it. It was hard to manage, it was hard to figure out, you start getting into all sorts of separation of powers issues in terms of the court monitoring or engaging in a process that is essentially is administrative and takes a lot of time. The court is not very good at it, and politically it is hard to legitimize opinions from the court in that regard. So I think that although you can craft theoretical justifications for it legally, I think any three of us sitting here could come up with a rationale for bringing about economic change through the courts, I think that as a practical matter that our institutions are just poorly equipped to do it.[/quote]

(transcript of quote may be found here: http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/10/by_yes_i_mean_no.php)

Notice in particular the bolded part at the end that was edited out of the version posted earlier. Yeah, that’s the part where he basically says that the courts cannot be expected to implement any serious redistribution of wealth. He’s not even making a value judgment like “Gee, wouldn’t it be great if…”, he’s just flat out saying why it wouldn’t work.

It’s pretty obvious that he is in favor of some sort of redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor, but that’s hardly news. He’s been talking about tax breaks and credits for the poor and middle class for the past year now. Even McCain’s tax plan is progressive, and therefore represents some transfer of wealth through the tax code, to say nothing of Medicare and welfare and all the other programs already in place.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Meaningless.
McCain redistributes up, Obama down.
We have a progressive tax system for good reasons. A tax system of any sort redistributes wealth. Moving on…[/quote]

Incorrect. You are confusing Means and Ends. A progressive tax is a Means to raising revenue and paying for government - and the policy issue is whether the wealthy should pay a higher percentage.

Redistribution of wealth is an End, and is not a revenue-raising argument. In fact, it is completely independent of the revenue argument - the goal is to move wealth around, not shift the burdens of who pays for the navy or the light bills at the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Obama seeks redistribution as an End, a substantive good in its own right, a policy goal independent of what revenue looks like. This piece has demonstrated exactly who Obama is.

Which brings me to the next question - Obama has socialist inclinations: so what? Why not just run as that? All general election candidates tack to the center - but why run this dishonest “centrist” campaign when he isn’t even close to having the policies of a centrist?

Well, we know why - but that cynical “stealth candidate” approach doesn’t sound much like the “Hopenchange” that was supposed to heal our souls.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Which brings me to the next question - Obama has socialist inclinations: so what? Why not just run as that?
[/quote]

Hasn’t the center shifted toward a more socialistic agenda? This would be evidenced by the fact that McCain has been required to propose a health plan that has the goal of unversal health care. How is this not democratic socialism? I can agree that the this might not be the best direction of the nation, but the libertarian views of the Goldwater/Reagan politicians have diminished or been dismantled by Bush2 and this is what we have left. So it could be argued that running a centrist campaign is in fact running a shade of a socialist campaign and Obama is not being dishonest.

This thread is generally a load of crap though. Chicago Public Radio recently reran that interview in its entirety. This interview was mostly refering to school funding, which is a huge issue in Chicago–the city has on of the worst school districts in the US. When Obama was talking about reditribution of wealth, he was mostly refering to education funding in that poor black neighborhoods were not given access to equal funding as rich white neighboorhoods. Funny thing is that someone mentioned Ayers ealier, this is one of his big things as well.

SO he uses the term “redistribution” to refer to school funding?

Why not just say school funding?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
SO he uses the term “redistribution” to refer to school funding?

Why not just say school funding?

[/quote]

Because it is redistribution he advocates at least in respect to school funding. He advocates a disproprotionate amount of funding going to poorer schools than is generated by the taxes in the areas that support those schools.

But, yes this interview was mostly about that context. It is misleading to say otherwise. Nonetheless, Obama’s plans do seem to favor redistribution on a broader scale. In other arenas. So, it’s not really that far off the mark.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
SO he uses the term “redistribution” to refer to school funding?

Why not just say school funding?

[/quote]

Because he believes money is a zero sum game. There is only so much of it, so you have to take it from one place to get it to another. He is also a communist. That’s why.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
SO he uses the term “redistribution” to refer to school funding?

Why not just say school funding?

[/quote]

I think he does but the radio clip cuts him off at “redistribution” and he continues to say “of school funds”. This clip has been cleverly edited to show what the youtube poster wants it to show.

It is a joke to me that people are using this crap as the basis of argument. I rather people use Fox News or other more mainstream conservative media as the starting point, there are more checks and balances on them.

I am a libertarian–I generally agree with everything that Goldwater wrote in Conscience of a Conservative, but the elections since Bush1 was defeated have left me without a canidate.

Truth is we are not going to get back to that viewpoint unless the wing of the republican party that is small goverment and fiscally conservative kick the religious right to the curb.

Socially liberal / fiscally conservative canidates for federal government can win…but until then if the Democrats continue to find these highly intellegent canidates with good communication skills they are going to beat the crap out of the right even if they are truely socialist.