[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I understand your point, really I do. Before parents have children, they need to grasp that it’s not just when it’s convenient for you and you are responsible for your child and their behavior. I’m not engaged simply because I have the time to be, I made it a priority.
[/quote]
I know the conversation has moved on but I have to go back to this quote because it is so far out in fairytale land that it actually made me laugh out loud. The problem isn’t your kids or you, or parents like you. The problem is that there are too many parents with kids who are not like you and NEVER WILL BE. It’s not going to happen.
You talk about throwing responsibility back on parents, who have never even been responsible for themselves and never will be. Yet you expect them to take responsiblity for their children? I can’t fathom how you expect that to work.
I’m sorry for picking on you, you come across as a very good person and a great parent, but your thinking is so bizarre it’s fascinating. As far as spanking goes I’m all for it if it is done before the whole school. I don’t think the pain is as much a factor in maintaining discipline as the public humiliation. [/quote]
No offense taken. I’ve got a pretty thick skin and I don’t feel picked on.
Thank you for the compliments on my parenting but I believe that it’s not living in a fantasy world that has worked for me but more so being a realist. People get away with what you let them get away with. If some people think that someone else will do their job or clean up their mess, they will gladly let them. If it’s not the parents responsibility then whose is it? Does my child need to suffer and have their education fall behind because so and so’s child can’t control their behavior and their parents are too lazy to reprimand them for it? If you apply that logic to any other situation in life, it almost seems ludicrous.
Let me put it to you this way, I was a very good child, a good student, almost a second mother in my house growing up. I was very polite, shy and respectful. My brother was bad. Like really, really bad. ADHD and a host of other behavior issues. Part of his problem was legitimate, I believe. The other part of it was also my parents not dealing with his behavior and laying down the law. He got into so much trouble at school that he had to be removed and sent to another school for children with behavior issues and he was also placed on meds. His classroom did better without all of his disruptions and he did better because it forced my parents to make a decision and find a school appropriate for his needs. He had smaller classes, more individualized attention and more counseling time. Anyways, he still lacked structure and discipline at home and didn’t make much of himself.
The above is not a perfect solution by any means at all, however, it allowed the children that DO behave to carry on and without the unfair disruptions and poor behavior.
There are laws and systems in place for people that choose not to take care of their children. Hold the parents responsible for their actions or lack thereof. Once again, not the perfect solution but why does everyone else have to suffer because of one child that doesn’t understand social rules and boundaries?
It’s not that difficult. When my son was small if he had an unruly friend, I would explain the rules to them and if they broke them - time to go home. You can’t come here anymore.
If there are classes geared to different intellect levels, why not behavioral levels also, if needed? What’s the ideal solution? You tell me.[/quote]
As you said in one of our earlier exchanges, you and I agree about more things than we disagree about. You bring up a couple of interesting points here that I think bear thinking about. You mention yourself and your brother. Two kids, same home and I assume same parents and similar approach to discipline etc. Very different outcomes. My wife and her younger sister are a very similar story. Parent your children how you will, they are still their own people with their own temperaments and personalities. What “works” for one child may very well not for another. Your parenting strategies work for you and your child. We take a similar approach with our daughter and also find, so far, that it works (mostly). You mention in another post that you don’t have “super powers”. No, but maybe we are both fortunate to have children who are somewhat predisposed to being kind, reasonable people and who are therefor fairly receptive to reasonable disciplinary strategies? Maybe our children are fortunate to be raised in loving, stable home environments that are conducive to healthy development? I sincerely believe that this is not true of every child, even if their parents try to do it “right” (whatever that means).
Extrapolating that to a classroom setting is it not reasonable to imagine that there would be a kids who would fall all along this continuum? Take it further to the scenario Prof X describes with the inner city school where a disproportionate number of kids are coming from a background that puts them in some way “at risk”. Then immerse them in a culture that is nearly bereft of positive role models, where crime, poverty, drug use, disdain for authority and domestic chaos are the norm. Then further compound that with the near certainty that their nutritional status is highly compromised (which shows a definite link to ADHD/behavioural issues). Now put them in an ugly, violent, overcrowded environment where, regardless of their personal values, they and their peers are trying to fit into street culture because it’s all they see. Suddenly you have, what maybe 70 out of the 85 kids who might be crammed into a given classroom who are like your brother on crack (perhaps literally). Now give that school NO funding because it’s tax base is underemployed, impoverished and densely populated. Alternative school? For the majority of kids in districts with no money? I don’t know. Alternative school for the few who are somewhat reasonable? Maybe.
If you demand these kids leave school until they behave, IMO they will simply leave, as in drop out. They were likely to do that anyway so maybe we should cut to the chase and only teach the 10-15 kids out of that hypothetical 85 who are somewhat reasonable? You begin with the assumption that the majority of their parents are functioning human beings who are psychologically capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their kids if someone forces them. In short, you think that they are at least somewhat like you. Sadly this is simply not the case. If you are living in “fantasy land”, this is where the disconnect takes place IMO. I’m not talking about income as I don’t know your situation (although income is definitely a factor). I’m talking about basic mentality. You are suggesting that if people could be decent, reasonable and responsible circumstances would improve. This is undeniably true. However they are obviously disinclined to do so or the problem wouldn’t exist in the first place.
I don’t know what the ideal solution is. A sudden widespread outbreak of decency and reason sounds good, but I don’t know how you implement that on a social scale.[/quote]
What you’re saying, I agree with. I’m not void of empathy or sympathy for these children or the families in which they come from. In the types of cases that you’ve mentioned, they are extreme. I wouldn’t know where to suggest beginning with schools facing those sorts of statistics.
I do know that when you give birth to a child that you are obligated both morally and legally to that child and you are responsible for their actions. Because their parents lack those basic life skills does not mean that my child should be placed into a hostile environment. Adults that behave this way are sent to prison or jail. I’m sure lots of them didn’t come from ideal families but they are still held accountable for their actions and the general public (that knows how to behave) are not subject to dealing with them.
Public well-being trumps “fairness”.[/quote]
I wanted to come back to this batman. My husband has the flu currently so I am a little side tracked atm.
It brings me happiness to know that your daughters disposition is much like my sons. Whereas I do think that some children have a natural predisposition to possess this type of demeanor, if you give such a child no rules or boundaries, they will eventually become unruly also. Everybody needs boundaries. I do believe that personality is about 50% genetics though and weigh it evenly with environment and surroundings.
Prof X did bring up inner city kids, which is fair but not entirely. The child being discussed in the news story wasn’t an inner city child. They are part of the story but not all of it. Some of the children with behavior problems come from middle class and affluent families and fail miserably socially, not because of abuse or gangs or malnourishment but because their parents are just too caught up in their own lives or they don’t know how/refuse to deal with what is, their job. Now, in a school like Prof X described, I wouldn’t know what to do because IMO, by the time a child gets to be that age (15), I feel like it’s almost impossible to see reform. Not that you shouldn’t try but you don’t endanger other children to perform social experiments.
I don’t demand they leave school. There are other education avenues. Children that cause severe disruptions should not get in the way of the kids that do want to be there and learn.